Duggar Friends the Proverbs Family Freak Out

[JellyHope]

Ugh, just read an entry about homeschooling -

proverbsfamily.blogspot.com/2013/06/homeschool-myth-3they-wont-be-socialized.html

She describes a day in the life of a kid who attends "government school" (ebil public school.) It's infuriatingly make-believe & 100% WRONG, IMO. (Only 15 minutes to eat lunch without being allowed to talk, stifling creativity, an ugly building, no time for breakfast, just to name a few.) I'm speaking with the authority of a person who went to public school K-12, AND taught public school for a decade. Nothing she describes about public school rings a bell for me. Are there bad teachers out there? Mean, even? Unfair? Sure! But that's real-life. We've all had a boss that sucks. This can also be used as a learning opportunity for you and your child. But in my experience, the "good" teachers were in the majority.

Also, IMO, if your child is socialized with other children/families who believe the exact same things you do, with no variation of religion, background, culture, etc... then they're not getting socialization. What's great about school, is learning how to work with differences in a group, difficult personalities, different traditions & ways of living.

She says that a child's day should be like an adult's day. For example; eating lunch when & how long they choose, talking when they want, interacting with all types/ages of people, and many other things I'm too tired to list out. This is just ridiculous. Adults get the freedom to choose these options for themselves because THEY ARE ADULTS! It's not real-world/real-life to expect to be able to do whatever you want whenever you want to. And how do you expect your child to work in a group setting in their adult job with varying personalities, temperaments, beliefs, backgrounds, ideologies... not to mention deadlines, restrictions... if they're only ever exposed to kids who's upbringing is virtually identical to their own?

Sorry, I can get very defensive of public school.

[paganhomeschooler]

Actually, things have changed dramatically since I was in school, at least in our area. My daughter gets barely 30 min. to eat lunch. If she buys, she realistically probably does get 15 min. because the lunch lines are so long. Many schools, especially elementaries, do make the kids eat silently so it doesn't get too rowdy. Kids who aren't quiet are also commonly punished by not having recess, which just compounds the problem. When I was in school, we got a short morning recess as well as almost an hour at lunch for eating/playing. None of my kids have ever had a morning recess, and they've never had more than a half an hour for lunch. Once they go to middle school, they also lose recess. In our old district, they started middle school in 5th grade when my kids went there. Now, they start at the middle school in 4th grade. They're talking about possibly moving the 3rd graders there the year after next, and moving the 8th graders to the high school. Can you imagine being in 4th/5th grade and not having recess? No Halloween/Christmas/Valentine's day parties? It's pretty sucky. The kids also really didn't have much time if they ate breakfast at school. In the elementary my 2nd daughter went to, you weren't allowed to drop them off before 8:30. School started at 8:50. They had 20 minutes to go through the line, get their food, find a spot, and eat. I had a meeting with a teacher once before school, and my daughter starved until she finally got to eat lunch after 1:00 because she barely had time to eat any of the breakfast. I can't imagine how hungry the kids who were on the free breakfast program and ate there every day were.

Those aren't the reasons we pulled our kids from that district. The curriculum was horrible, their "zero tolerance" bullying policies were a joke. They refused to do any sort of testing for learning disabilities because my daughter "wasn't a behavior problem, so I won't sign off on it" and because I had tipped my hand and mentioned the D-word, dyslexia, and "we don't test for that", so they refused to test for anything. I can go on and on, but those really are things that DO happen in public schools.

I would just like to point out one other thing about the socialization...honestly, homeschooled kids who are NOT sheltered really do have great opportunities to meet people of different ages, genders, belief systems, etc. The secular homeschoolers I have met have all had wonderfully diverse, compassionate, accepting, well rounded kids; my own kids included. My kids also have deadlines and restrictions. We have sets of rules in this home that must be followed. They also did an e-school, and they had many deadlines. They also suffered the consequences when they would choose to ignore those deadlines.

I know not all public schools, teachers, or principals are bad. Not all homeschoolers are bad, either! I didn't read the article itself because I don't care to get myself worked up over her drivel. I was just commenting on the points you brought up. FTR, most of my kids will be in public school next year as we've moved to a much better district. The middle schoolers still don't get recess, but they do get an academic prep period to sort of decompress, which is nice. Only one of my kids will be homeschooled next year as he has learning disabilities, and the school is unable to meet his needs in the least restrictive environment at this time. We will be able to work more directly on getting him caught up now that we aren't with the e-school anymore and saddled with busy work. Just please know that there truly are many homeschoolers who go out of their way to make sure their kids are very diverse in their learning as well as social interactions. There are co-ops, chess clubs, Harry Potter clubs, Lego clubs, homeschool gym classes, swim classes, gymnastics classes, martial arts classes, history clubs, quiz bowls, science clubs, math clubs, book clubs, etc.

Not trying to defend this crackpot and her SOTDRT curriculum. Homeschooling, when done well, can really be an asset to kids; most especially ones that don't fit the average cookie cutter mold public schools seem to teach to.

[lizziesmom]

I get so tired of reading posts about the public schools that are written by people who know nothing about them (other than whatever propaganda they've been indoctrinated with). It's like those who criticize and want to censor books they don't read.

Edit to add: I will admit that I have a bias against homeschooling because it seems like too many of the parents in favor of this are also in favor of raising their children in isolation and reject the idea of exposure to people with different cultures and belief systems. For those on here who do home school, as I've posted before, I admire your stamina because I don't think I am remotely qualified to teach certain subjects, even though I have a graduate degree. I don't know how you do it.

[JellyHope]

Pagen Homeschooler,

Thank you for your post. I often forget about the homeschooling families who do it well, and like PP, have predisposed notions based on all the SOTDRT fundie freaks. You're completely right, and I'm sorry that your old district sucked so bad! I have been very blessed (gag, that term sounds so fundy) to live in a city where the public schools, for the most part, are excellent. And your children are blessed to have such an awesome homeschool environment!

[desertvixen]

She says that a child's day should be like an adult's day. For example; eating lunch when & how long they choose, talking when they want, interacting with all types/ages of people, and many other things I'm too tired to list out. This is just ridiculous. Adults get the freedom to choose these options for themselves because THEY ARE ADULTS! It's not real-world/real-life to expect to be able to do whatever you want whenever you want to. And how do you expect your child to work in a group setting in their adult job with varying personalities, temperaments, beliefs, backgrounds, ideologies... not to mention deadlines, restrictions... if they're only ever exposed to kids who's upbringing is virtually identical to their own?

Not to mention, how many adults get to do all that stuff?

[mockingbird]

Her description sounds more like my Catholic elementary school, than the public one my brother and sister went to :lol: We really did have 15 minutes for lunch! It was a strict school, but I really liked rules, order and academics, so I didn't mind that. For my brother (who actually does have ADD and could not sit still all day, and who needed help a small private school couldn't afford to provide) and sister (who is much more of a "free spirit"), it was not the right environment for them. I ended up switching to public school from middle school on, because my school got a bunch of new teachers and some of them were even more restrictive and it changed from being a strict but positive learning environment, to simply a restrictive one. Professor Umbridge reminds me of my main 6th grade teacher, mine was not as evil, but abused her power and spent way more time implementing/lecturing about her rules than actually teaching. (And not to dump on Catholic school teachers or anything, most of my other ones were awesome, and I am really close to my kindergarten teacher and her family, who were also our neighbors.)

Anyway, I had to laugh at the Proverbs post, because one of my friends recently asked me what the biggest change was when I switched to public school, and my answer was that we could talk in the hallways :lol: My public school district, at least, is not as 1984-ish as you imagined, lol.

[Snarfblatt]

I must admit that I am unusually pissed off that the library post doesn't allow comments. Mostly because I wanted to post

We uphold the principles of intellectual freedom and resist all efforts to censor library resources.

from the ALA Code of Ethics.

http://www.ala.org/advocacy/proethics/c ... codeethics

I suspect though that the reason she disallowed comments was because other people shared that with her.

[church_of_dog]

I must admit that I am unusually pissed off that the library post doesn't allow comments. Mostly because I wanted to post

from the ALA Code of Ethics.

http://www.ala.org/advocacy/proethics/c ... codeethics

I suspect though that the reason she disallowed comments was because other people shared that with her.

That seems likely. I work in a library in a strongly conservative community, and it's not at all uncommon for patrons to "bring to our attention" that certain movies are rated not for children, or have sex or foul language in them, and then seem baffled when the library doesn't immediately banish those things or prevent children from accessing them.

It's our library's policy that if parents permit their children to come to the library without an adult, and don't ask us to restrict what their kids can check out, that we don't. To do otherwise would be censorship. Simple as that.

[lizziesmom]

It's not the responsibility of the library to censor anyone, including children, unless their parents ask them to do so. When I was growing up, we had a children's section and an adult section. Children under age 12, were typically not allowed to go into the adult section. When I tried to do so, my mother was contacted. She told them that I had her permission to check out any book in the library and that she did not believe in censorship. (She and I always talked about the books I brought home). I was then allowed to go anywhere I wanted.

Why fundies feel it is their right to tell the entire world how to live continues to baffle me. If you don't like a book, tv show, radio show, etc., you don't read/watch/listen.

[paganhomeschooler]

Pagen Homeschooler,

Thank you for your post. I often forget about the homeschooling families who do it well, and like PP, have predisposed notions based on all the SOTDRT fundie freaks. You're completely right, and I'm sorry that your old district sucked so bad! I have been very blessed (gag, that term sounds so fundy) to live in a city where the public schools, for the most part, are excellent. And your children are blessed to have such an awesome homeschool environment!

Thank you! :-) I hope I'm doing right by them. It's easy to just see the negative. I know some homeschoolers who are very biased against public schools. I also know there are many homeschoolers who think the SOTDRT is a crock, and I send them this way! lol I am all for doing what is best for the child, whether it's homeschool, public school, private school, e-school, etc. :-)

Our old district is a piece of work. We are SO glad to be out of there! The 2nd semester started in our new district about a month after we moved, and that's when my oldest went back. Thankfully, this new district really is great, especially compared to the old one. They also have a fabulous anti-bullying policy which is actually enforced.

I will admit that I will never say anything nice about our old district. lol I know they are an exception, not the rule, though. ;)

[bbfreethinker]

Not to mention, how many adults get to do all that stuff?

Exactly! At work I get a half hour lunch break. And while I'd love to spend all day chatting with my co-workers, my boss prefers that I spend my time doing my actual job. But then I'm a evil working woman, so what do I know?

[JMarie]

That girl looks ticked in the dress photos....prob because her MOM picked everything out, and her MOM put her private struggles on the internet. Do these people even realize that their children are NOT extensions of them selves?!!!!!

She's not sitting very ladylike in the sixth photo from the top. Do you think the reason she looks miserable is because the family decided to have a graduation party on the dad her dad died, and she misses him?

[Miggy]

Hmm...time for a comparison. I teach music in a primary school and high school and work as a musician when work is available. MrMiggy is a university lecturer and lab supervisor.

(1) University: arrive 8:30 to set up for labs, lab class 9-12, pack up after lab from 12 for however long it takes, lunch between when finished and 1pm lecture. Whole ritual repeated for dinner break between 6-7pm. Not unusual for MrMiggy to have a 8:30-8:30 day with no breaks at all.

(2) Musician: Really odd start and finish hours with no definite meal breaks. Always keep a bag of food/drink under your music stand and eat between pieces.

(3) Government K-6 School: (I eat when the kids eat) Start 9am, crunch&sip (fruit+glass of water) 10am, playtime 11:00-11:45, lunch is officially 11:45-12:00 but we let the kids finish their food so more like 11:45-12:10, afternoon tea which includes playtime and a snack 1:45-2:15, home at 3:15pm.

(4) Government 7-12 School: rough times, class 1-2 9-10:40, morning tea 10:40-11:10, classes 3-4 11:10-12:50, lunch 12:50-1:40, classes 5-6 1:40-3:20, home.

So somebody please explain why kids (and teachers haha) in government schools suffer and should be more like adults?

[nelliebelle1197]

Very little about this family has a reasonable in the real world explanation, Miggy!

[Miggy]

True. Don't know why I keep expecting one.

[Lillybee]

So some stranger came up with the cash to send the oldest daughter to Journey to the Heart. As much as I dislike him, I think that Boob came up with the necessary funds.

[copper]

Um, I dislike Jim Bob because he would think it's his business to send other people's kids to Journey to the Heart. Anyone want to bet he would front a trip to Silver Dollar City for this girl?

[Minerva]

When I was in elementary school, I had 20 minutes to eat lunch, followed by a 40 minute lunch recess. If you weren't done your lunch in the 20 minutes, you could finish outside. That gave you an hour in total. We ate our morning and afternoon recess snacks outside, too. It wasn't a big deal. Buying lunches wasn't an option until high school, and in high school we had an hour to do whatever we pleased, so there was no way we could run out of time.

Also, it's pretty normal for adults to have to scarf down meals in 15 minutes. We can't all have fancy jobs with lunch hours.

[lost_not_found]

This post on thrift storing is just mind numbing. She has a really low standard for what is "great" and for someone who talks constantly about how her girls are the most modest everywhere they go-- she posted some odd shots (like the polka dot shorts pic...) :shock:

proverbsfamily.blogspot.com/2013/06/thrifty-tuesdays.html

Those poor girls are in seriously ill-fitting clothes.

[Rescinded and Mended]

It's not the responsibility of the library to censor anyone, including children, unless their parents ask them to do so. When I was growing up, we had a children's section and an adult section. Children under age 12, were typically not allowed to go into the adult section. When I tried to do so, my mother was contacted. She told them that I had her permission to check out any book in the library and that she did not believe in censorship. (She and I always talked about the books I brought home). I was then allowed to go anywhere I wanted.

Why fundies feel it is their right to tell the entire world how to live continues to baffle me. If you don't like a book, tv show, radio show, etc., you don't read/watch/listen.

So much this. One thing I have always tried to do with my son is to openly discuss the subjects he sees and reads about in movies, books and other forms of media. Instead of censoring these things, I prefer to ask him what he thinks. I think that by giving kids the facts and discussing the pros and cons of any situation, we're giving them the tools they need to make intelligent, informed decisions for themselves when they get older.

The other day, I watched Sister Wives. My son wanted to see what it was about, so I let him sit and watch it with me. After it was over, I explained what polygamy was and how it related to fundamental Mormonism. I asked him what he thought, and he said he thought it was wrong. He said his father and I spent a lot of time with him, and he liked that. He didn't think a man with so many wives and kids had the time or money to spend with all of them.

[tuckerphez]

This post on thrift storing is just mind numbing. She has a really low standard for what is "great" and for someone who talks constantly about how her girls are the most modest everywhere they go-- she posted some odd shots (like the polka dot shorts pic...) :shock:

proverbsfamily.blogspot.com/2013/06/thrifty-tuesdays.html

Those poor girls are in seriously ill-fitting clothes.

Those poor girls look miserable.

And that "dress used as a skirt" moment - what if it was cheaper as a dress? What then?

[Miggy]

^ This.

The eldest girl in particular. So sad. Maybe I should adopt her instead of Jenny Duggar. She can play hockey and go to scouts (no "Girl" scouts in Australia either so it's in with the boys) with my daughter. The only time she will ever have to wear a skirt is to school in Terms 1 & 4, as it is summer uniform. It's well above knee level though so not fundy at all.

[belly_button]

This post on thrift storing is just mind numbing. She has a really low standard for what is "great" and for someone who talks constantly about how her girls are the most modest everywhere they go-- she posted some odd shots (like the polka dot shorts pic...) :shock:

proverbsfamily.blogspot.com/2013/06/thrifty-tuesdays.html

Those poor girls are in seriously ill-fitting clothes.

These clothes look terrible! And the oldest girl looks very unhappy in the pictures. I love thrift stores too, and likely visit some of the same ones she does. I'm no fashion expert but I've gotten some outfits at these stores without ever looking frumpy.

[Minerva]

(like the polka dot shorts pic...) :shock:

Are you implying that crotch shots aren't modest? :whistle:

[Dysfundamental]

At my public high school in the late 70s/early 80s, we had between 18 and 22 minutes for lunch, which included standing in the cafeteria line. My brother and I still eat too quickly as a result.

On the other hand, we were allowed to talk!