Toddlers Killed More Americans Than Terrorists Did

[meep]

I also don't think it's entirely a tired argument. I'm not talking there are still murders here and there, I mean there is still a huge gun problem in SOME places in the U.S. And I don't see how it's not true that the underground market would grow. My friend works at a sporting store and the day the state was voting on gun bans, there were people lined up in a huge line outside before the store even opened, all waiting to buy guns and ammo, "just in case". They sold out everything that day and had very angry customers. And you see that happen in plenty of places in the U.S. when gun control comes up. And we've already see it happen in big cities.

As for the links:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/15/health/tr ... nters-guns

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... n-control/

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/08/168853287 ... rime-rates

http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/ar ... aking-them

I looked up Chicago as that is by far the worst city so is therefore the best example.

[Sumeri]

I also don't think it's entirely a tired argument. I'm not talking there are still murders here and there, I mean there is still a huge gun problem in SOME places in the U.S. And I don't see how it's not true that the underground market would grow. My friend works at a sporting store and the day the state was voting on gun bans, there were people lined up in a huge line outside before the store even opened, all waiting to buy guns and ammo, "just in case". They sold out everything that day and had very angry customers. And you see that happen in plenty of places in the U.S. when gun control comes up. And we've already see it happen in big cities.

As for the links:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/15/health/tr ... nters-guns

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... n-control/

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/08/168853287 ... rime-rates

http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/ar ... aking-them

I looked up Chicago as that is by far the worst city so is therefore the best example.

I'm from Chicago, and this upsets me every time I hear it because, yes, many of the guns used in crimes there are obtained illegally. But ORIGINALLY they came from someone who bought them legally, right? I mean, illegal guns don't grow out of the ground, they came from somewhere legally at some point. So doesn't it make sense that with less guns in the pipe to begin with, there will be less guns overall?

I live in a rural area now and guns are everywhere. It's fucking ridiculous. I don't buy that whole "shooting for food" or "Shooting for hunting" argument because NOBODY talks about taking those kinds of guns away. We're not seeing gang members in Chicago shooting folks with big ol' hunting rifles.

[France Nolan]

I think the big problem is that right now gun control has largely been left to the states. So you're right, a gun could be legally purchased in Kentucky and then be resold illegally in New York. It happens all the time. Even with the illegal trafficking NY still has much lower rates of gun related crimes than most major metropolitan areas. If the federal government took action, then we might see some relief from the illegal guns.

I agree that if we have fewer guns on the market as a whole then there's less chance for them to be illegally sold/traded. The way it stands right now with some states being strict and some states being lax the situation lends itself to a lucrative black market for firearms.

There needs to be collective action.

[DistantStar]

I live in a rural area now and guns are everywhere. It's fucking ridiculous. I don't buy that whole "shooting for food" or "Shooting for hunting" argument because NOBODY talks about taking those kinds of guns away. We're not seeing gang members in Chicago shooting folks with big ol' hunting rifles.

No, of course not! But the nuts are convinced that Obama wants to leave them without One. Single. Solitary. Gun. Of any kind. Because if you disallow ONE kind of gun there goes the slippery slope and soon we will all be living under the iron thumb of MuslimObama, doncha know? :roll:

Even my stepdad doesn't see why most people would need handguns. Whether I agree or not (I tend to) this is not an either/or argument. This is why I fall into the "they are tools, tools have uses" camp. And I see no real use for semiautomatic or automatic weapons in the hands of anybody beside the military.

[meep]

I'm from Chicago, and this upsets me every time I hear it because, yes, many of the guns used in crimes there are obtained illegally. But ORIGINALLY they came from someone who bought them legally, right? I mean, illegal guns don't grow out of the ground, they came from somewhere legally at some point. So doesn't it make sense that with less guns in the pipe to begin with, there will be less guns overall?

I live in a rural area now and guns are everywhere. It's fucking ridiculous. I don't buy that whole "shooting for food" or "Shooting for hunting" argument because NOBODY talks about taking those kinds of guns away. We're not seeing gang members in Chicago shooting folks with big ol' hunting rifles.

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I still don't think a total ban will do a WHOLE lot of good. Some good, yes, and I'd support it but my whole point was that it's not the main problem. People from the most affected areas of Chicago are never satisfied when politicians bring the conversation back to *strictly* gun control and I put more stock in their words.

[debrand]

I also don't think it's entirely a tired argument. I'm not talking there are still murders here and there, I mean there is still a huge gun problem in SOME places in the U.S. And I don't see how it's not true that the underground market would grow. My friend works at a sporting store and the day the state was voting on gun bans, there were people lined up in a huge line outside before the store even opened, all waiting to buy guns and ammo, "just in case". They sold out everything that day and had very angry customers. And you see that happen in plenty of places in the U.S. when gun control comes up. And we've already see it happen in big cities.

As for the links:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/15/health/tr ... nters-guns

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... n-control/

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/08/168853287 ... rime-rates

http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/ar ... aking-them

I looked up Chicago as that is by far the worst city so is therefore the best example.

Thank you for the links

[dairyfreelife]

There are just so many fucking guns in the US available right now that an underground market is very likely. Too many people have a serious obsession with those killing machines sadly. I know many people who have a collection of guns. That's the issue with banning guns in the US. I fear it will be like prohibition, even with just military style semi-automatic weapons. It's just a shame really. I agree with Meeps too. The vote on banning certain guns brought an insane number of weapons permits and gun and ammo purchases here cause "They're gonna take all my gunz!!!!!!" Even though they are not.

[Diana]

Here in my country you need a licence to buy a gun, mostly for hunting because other guns are restricted for police, or people who needs special protection.. but in all my life i never knew a person who owns a gun, other than a shotgun for hunting, and that people were always older men with a permision from the police, and keep the gun unloaded at home so the kids cant shoot it by accident. That doesnt mean that here accidents or crimes doesnt happen, but happen less often.

I think that normal people dont need guns in america either, because in todays world there is police, military forces.. for protection, but more restrictive laws probably arent what interests to the armamentistic american industry.

[shedemei]

In the US, there are many communities that still hunt for food. In addition, if you live on a farm or a ranch, animals need to be defended or put down at times, it's just part of the cycle. Not everyone lives in an urban or suburban environment.

Moving from a city to a more rural environment opened my eyes to that. I think that this is an important point, because part of the gun debate in the US is fueled by different cultures *within* the US (in addition to the crazy NRA/prepper/etc folks); we're very much not a homogenous country. The culture in where I live on the west coast is very different from where I grew up on the east.

[clicker dies]

I am so tired of the gun debate when it concerns adults. But I didn't realize that some people want to actually let their kids own one! Of all the cockamamie bullshit to be arguing for, I never thought that arming six year olds would be it.

When I was about five a neighbor of mine took me to her house and pointed her father's shotgun at me. She was older, maybe seven or eight. Her dad was in law enforcement, and this particular gun was sitting on top of an armoir in a bedroom. She just got up on a chair and grabbed it. I remember putting my hands up and trying to convince her to put it back, which she did after a while. We didn't hang out after that and I never told anybody for years. I mean, who knows if she could even have aimed it well enough to actually hit me, but it was not a fun day.

I've handled guns, big guns, and I'm not a terrible shot. But still, if the child of a cop doesn't know how to respect that it's a deadly weapon... It doesn't give me much hope. Arming kids is so fucking stupid.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Gun violence is often linked to gang violence, which is an urban phenomenon. It's true that many of these guns are illegal - but as people have said, they had to come from somewhere.

I'd also like law enforcement to have the legal tools to deal with the issue. Make it illegal to carry those handguns, and you don't need to wait until someone's shot to have the law step in.

[Minerva]

I also don't think it's entirely a tired argument. I'm not talking there are still murders here and there, I mean there is still a huge gun problem in SOME places in the U.S. And I don't see how it's not true that the underground market would grow. My friend works at a sporting store and the day the state was voting on gun bans, there were people lined up in a huge line outside before the store even opened, all waiting to buy guns and ammo, "just in case". They sold out everything that day and had very angry customers. And you see that happen in plenty of places in the U.S. when gun control comes up. And we've already see it happen in big cities.

As for the links:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/15/health/tr ... nters-guns

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... n-control/

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/08/168853287 ... rime-rates

http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/ar ... aking-them

I looked up Chicago as that is by far the worst city so is therefore the best example.

Are you aware that justfacts.com is full of shit? I'll give it credit for being somewhat more professional than Conservapedia, but not much. The gun control page pinged my bullshit meter, so I checked out some of its other sections. I facepalmed my way through the global warming page, then laughed my way through the abortion page. I picked a random citation from the abortion page, read the study and found that the justfacts.com authors outright lied about the study's findings.

[debrand]

Okay, now I am really curious. Is gun violence higher in cities with tougher laws on guns? Has any unbiased source studied the issue?

[salex]

Gun violence is often linked to gang violence, which is an urban phenomenon. It's true that many of these guns are illegal - but as people have said, they had to come from somewhere.

I'd also like law enforcement to have the legal tools to deal with the issue. Make it illegal to carry those handguns, and you don't need to wait until someone's shot to have the law step in.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure it is already illegal to carry concealed handguns today without a permit in may places. But how are you going to enforce it? Random Pat downs? Metal detectors on the street?

My state (Kansas) passed a law on open carry that seemed to prohibit towns and cities from stopping people from openly carrying weapons in public places. Several towns are fighting that, which is fine with me-- even though I'm not sure it has made any bump in crime or shootings. However, it seems to me that the people I know who are most likely to open carry around for the hell of it are the people who maybe shouldn't. That said, I've considered getting a concealed carry license, even though I currently have zero interest in ever carrying, but because it does offer some protection if I were to transport to other states. And there have been a few times in the deep dark backwoods where a gun in the pic nic basket (we have no kids) would have made me feel safer in my environment. to

[France Nolan]

Okay, now I am really curious. Is gun violence higher in cities with tougher laws on guns? Has any unbiased source studied the issue?

Not necessarily. NYC has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and a lower rate of gun related crimes than most other major cities. Newark and Oakland are both in states with strict gun laws, and they are still in the Top 10 Cities for gun related homicides.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighb ... ence/4171/

Even if there is a correlation that doesn't translate to causation. I don't think stricter gun laws lead to more gun related violence. There are so many other factors at play like gang violence (a major problem for cities like Chicago and Oakland), poverty, institutionalized racism, and the list goes on.

The issue for New York is that when gun violence occurs, the guns used in the crimes were illegally trafficked into our state.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org ... _final.pdf

States with looser gun laws tend to have higher rates of gun related homicides than states with looser gun laws. Again, not always the case but that's the trend.

[2xx1xy1JD]

1. You could actually make it illegal to carry handguns in public.

2. Taking out a gun would then automatically be illegal. If there is a gun fight, you could arrest everyone involved, without all parties screaming "self-defense!".

3. If someone is searched, or their car is searched, and a handgun is found, they can be arrested. No need to use it first.

[salex]

1. You could actually make it illegal to carry handguns in public.

2. Taking out a gun would then automatically be illegal. If there is a gun fight, you could arrest everyone involved, without all parties screaming "self-defense!".

3. If someone is searched, or their car is searched, and a handgun is found, they can be arrested. No need to use it first.

So, I would have to have a shooting range in my home, because if I had a handgun in my trunk or carried it from the parking lot into the shooting range, I could be arrested? Taking it home from the store would be illegal? But owning it would be ok?

[OkToBeTakei]

So, I would have to have a shooting range in my home, because if I had a handgun in my trunk or carried it from the parking lot into the shooting range, I could be arrested? Taking it home from the store would be illegal? But owning it would be ok?

No. Handguns would be kept at the shooting range. That is how it works here. The penalty for even owning one without a licence would be an automatic 5 yrs in prison. Carrying one? Say goodbye to your liberty for a very long time.

[RachelB]

Not necessarily. NYC has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and a lower rate of gun related crimes than most other major cities. Newark and Oakland are both in states with strict gun laws, and they are still in the Top 10 Cities for gun related homicides.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighb ... ence/4171/

Even if there is a correlation that doesn't translate to causation. I don't think stricter gun laws lead to more gun related violence. There are so many other factors at play like gang violence (a major problem for cities like Chicago and Oakland), poverty, institutionalized racism, and the list goes on.

The issue for New York is that when gun violence occurs, the guns used in the crimes were illegally trafficked into our state.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org ... _final.pdf

States with looser gun laws tend to have higher rates of gun related homicides than states with looser gun laws. Again, not always the case but that's the trend.

Agreed on the "so many other factors."

I live in Oakland and briefly lived in Chicago. In both of them, gun violence is concentrated in a few neighborhoods. At least anecdotally, both policing and community attitude toward police varies widely from one neighborhood to another. When I lived in Chicago, my students who lived in the Howard area talked about police as being "the city's third gang" and not particularly responsive to calls, whereas I saw police respond very quickly in a majority-white neighborhood when two carloads of kids started fighting in a 7-11 parking lot.

If you have seen family and/or close friends be roughed up by police for Driving While Black, or be threatened with deportation for jaywalking, you might be less likely to call police in situations that haven't already gone to complete shit. Likewise, if you have seen officers escalate a conflict during a street protest so they have an excuse to bust heads, you might be less likely to call police to de-escalate a conflict.

TL;DR: The way our city is policed does not help, in my opinion.

[meep]

Are you aware that justfacts.com is full of shit? I'll give it credit for being somewhat more professional than Conservapedia, but not much. The gun control page pinged my bullshit meter, so I checked out some of its other sections. I facepalmed my way through the global warming page, then laughed my way through the abortion page. I picked a random citation from the abortion page, read the study and found that the justfacts.com authors outright lied about the study's findings.

Sorry about that! I'll go back and edit to remove it. [Nevermind, seems I can't edit it now. Just ignore it I guess.]

I did link in others, such as NPR and CNN, if anyone cares for those sources.

My main point in this whole thing wasn't that gun restriction laws don't work - because they do - but in certain places, we can't just rely on those laws to solve a huge problem.

RachelB is right on. The violence is concentrated in specific areas. This weekend alone, Chicago had a total of 41 shootings, leaving 7 dead (one police shooting of a supposedly unarmed civilian is included in the count), mostly on the south and west sides of the city. Englewood is generally considered the worst neighborhood. It's also no secret that Chicago has some of the most corrupted cops and politicians. This goes beyond gun control and I'm sure Chicago is not the only city like this.

There was once a handgun ban for decades in Chicago - during which Chicago had its most violent years - until the Supreme Court decided in 2010 that such a law was unconstitutional. So that's probably not going to happen again anytime soon.

[2xx1xy1JD]

So, I would have to have a shooting range in my home, because if I had a handgun in my trunk or carried it from the parking lot into the shooting range, I could be arrested? Taking it home from the store would be illegal? But owning it would be ok?

Here's an outline of the Canadian regulations on transporting firearms:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-f ... ge-eng.htm

Basically, in order to legally take that handgun to the shooting range, you need to be licensed to own a handgun AND register the handgun AND have an Authorization to Transport AND carry the handgun unloaded and locked and in a locked non-transparent container. That's not what gang members do.

[Minerva]

Sorry about that! I'll go back and edit to remove it. [Nevermind, seems I can't edit it now. Just ignore it I guess.]

I did link in others, such as NPR and CNN, if anyone cares for those sources.

My main point in this whole thing wasn't that gun restriction laws don't work - because they do - but in certain places, we can't just rely on those laws to solve a huge problem.

RachelB is right on. The violence is concentrated in specific areas. This weekend alone, Chicago had a total of 41 shootings, leaving 7 dead (one police shooting of a supposedly unarmed civilian is included in the count), mostly on the south and west sides of the city. Englewood is generally considered the worst neighborhood. It's also no secret that Chicago has some of the most corrupted cops and politicians. This goes beyond gun control and I'm sure Chicago is not the only city like this.

There was once a handgun ban for decades in Chicago - during which Chicago had its most violent years - until the Supreme Court decided in 2010 that such a law was unconstitutional. So that's probably not going to happen again anytime soon.

Yeah, there's a time limit on how long posts are editable.

And you're right. While gun control is an important part of keeping people safe, there are other factors. For instance, your CNN article blames Chicago's increased murder rate partly on trauma centres closing. It's something you'd never think of, but it makes sense.

[JesusFightClub]

I am so tired of the gun debate when it concerns adults. But I didn't realize that some people want to actually let their kids own one! Of all the cockamamie bullshit to be arguing for, I never thought that arming six year olds would be it.

When I was about five a neighbor of mine took me to her house and pointed her father's shotgun at me. She was older, maybe seven or eight. Her dad was in law enforcement, and this particular gun was sitting on top of an armoir in a bedroom. She just got up on a chair and grabbed it. I remember putting my hands up and trying to convince her to put it back, which she did after a while. We didn't hang out after that and I never told anybody for years. I mean, who knows if she could even have aimed it well enough to actually hit me, but it was not a fun day.

I've handled guns, big guns, and I'm not a terrible shot. But still, if the child of a cop doesn't know how to respect that it's a deadly weapon... It doesn't give me much hope. Arming kids is so fucking stupid.

Precisely. Your neighbour's dad was a fucking cock, though. Who just leaves a shotgun (loaded?) lying around within a child's reach? Children don't get consequences, which is why we keep pointy things and things that go bang out of their reach.

(I also suspect that a shotgun would have hit you even if your neighbour wasn't a whiz at aiming. You were in mortal danger there, and I am very happy you're here and posting! :shock: )

[OkToBeTakei]

I think for me to answer 'It is a tired argument,' as it was me who used it. It is tired to me because it was used in my country repeatedly to say why gun control would not work. I am totally respectful of the differences in culture regarding guns. I am not coming from a back round or culture where they were ever seen anything other than tools of war. My first experience of guns was my whole childhood of travelling from Northern Ireland to South. Being forcibly walked out of my parents car at age 8. (licence issues, my Dad's car had an English plate which his licence had not been updated to.) The soldiers with the autos were really nice while pointing them down at our feet as we walked.

What I do not get is the 'it will never work.' No. It won't. Because you don't believe or want it to. It is a we cannot even begin to imagine it, because it will fail. Gangs. Illegal guns. Crime. That aspect is easily disproved by statistics. In any country with bans. Reputable statistics that is. People will pick the statistics which support their argument. Especially from the US perspective.

Honestly cannot see any argument for auto-matic or semi personal gun ownership. Out with military. Sport, hunting, farming I see a necessity.

The argument about self defence I really have given a lot of thought to. When I look at person to person crime I find it hard. You are mugged from behind walking along the street, if your assailant is stronger and bigger than you, your only chance really is to walk about permanently with your gun in your hand. JUST in case this arises. For most of the situations this argument comes up would be the same.

My thought is that it is not a legal change that is required more a cultural one. But to discount countries who have successfully done this and then say ..but this..but that..is just excuses. We have illegal guns. We still have some gun crime. It is FAR from perfect.

But the arguments are tired because we have less dead people.

ETA. The laws here did not go through easily. I have no answer how that would even be possible with so much diversity and political difficulty in the US. But Dunblane made it real for the common man per se.

[clicker dies]

Precisely. Your neighbour's dad was a fucking cock, though. Who just leaves a shotgun (loaded?) lying around within a child's reach? Children don't get consequences, which is why we keep pointy things and things that go bang out of their reach.

(I also suspect that a shotgun would have hit you even if your neighbour wasn't a whiz at aiming. You were in mortal danger there, and I am very happy you're here and posting! :shock: )

That kid was bad news. At some earlier junction she had led me into my next-door neighbors fenced-in yard and hit their dog repeatedly with a stick and locked me in there with him. I got bitten (not badly) on the chest.

It'd be interesting to see how she ended up but I only remember her first name

eta - rereading that has definitely made me question the decisions I made as a five-year-old :o