Lori Alexander comments on Sunshine Mary

[2xx1xy1JD]

Yup, that is the proof. But apart of me thinks that Lori isn't always happy with the kink and that is why bitches on her blog about the women aren't submissive to their husbands.

Clearly, their marriage didn't start out that way.

Ken's made it clear that he's into being the Dominant, big time. He gets off on Lori's submission. About the only time that she gets any affection from him is when she is being submissive, or when she's particularly vulnerable due to her health. She likely thinks that going along with this is the price she needs to pay for him to stay with her and throw a few crumbs of affection her way.

[Arete]

Clearly, their marriage didn't start out that way.

Ken's made it clear that he's into being the Dominant, big time. He gets off on Lori's submission. About the only time that she gets any affection from him is when she is being submissive, or when she's particularly vulnerable due to her health. She likely thinks that going along with this is the price she needs to pay for him to stay with her and throw a few crumbs of affection her way.

Which would leave it as Lori's personal tragedy for which she would deserve sympathy. However, she takes her messed up marriage and then holds it up as a template that other women should follow. Here is where I think Lori actually gets off psychologically by trying to lure other women into this kind of travesty. I really think she gets pleasure out of the idea of other women being dominated and humiliated as she is in her marriage.

[snuggles911]

Which would leave it as Lori's personal tragedy for which she would deserve sympathy. However, she takes her messed up marriage and then holds it up as a template that other women should follow. Here is where I think Lori actually gets off psychologically by trying to lure other women into this kind of travesty. I really think she gets pleasure out of the idea of other women being dominated and humiliated as she is in her marriage.

I would agree with you concerning Lori. Sunshine is a different story. I think she actually gets off on being dominated. She used to post on a crazy Catholic BSDM blog that was taken down last fall. I would sometimes read it b/c it was so darn fascinating. Anyway, I remember her once posting about how she had convinced her husband to spank her for the first time, using his belt. It didn't sting enough so later he would spank her with a wooden hairbrush.

She enjoys being humiliated and I think that's why she feels it's OK for men to dominate women in general. It's really weird for a woman to be so misogynistic.

Today she has a post about how the pay gap b/w men and women is a big feminist lie and she's threatening to post links to her anti-feminist blog on various feminist websites: sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/06/02/when-we-get-to-the-feminist-utopia-in-abilene-will-there-still-be-no-male-female-pay-gap/

[2xx1xy1JD]

Which would leave it as Lori's personal tragedy for which she would deserve sympathy. However, she takes her messed up marriage and then holds it up as a template that other women should follow. Here is where I think Lori actually gets off psychologically by trying to lure other women into this kind of travesty. I really think she gets pleasure out of the idea of other women being dominated and humiliated as she is in her marriage.

There's some weird psychological shit going on with her. One part of her clearly thinks that Ken is an idiot and an asshole, but she feels too vulnerable to ever leave him. So, she's decided to be submissive instead, he loves it, and she gets fewer fights and a few crumbs of affection. She seems desperate to justify her life choices, and since she can't exercise any control over Ken or even herself, she tries to do it over other women and children. If someone successfully challenged her, and if she allowed herself to see that a truly happy egalitarian marriage and/or violence-free parent/child relationship could exist, the illusion falls apart. She wouldn't be the special suffering saint anymore, and would just be a pathetic women in a bad marriage who feels compelled to make bad choices.

I'm not giving her a pass. She reminds me too much of some people I know who actively continue the cycle of abuse. I just can't dismiss her as being all about some fun-loving kink. She's not presenting that way on her own blog. She's not telling the women she counsels about Ken's spanking comments. She advocates corporal punishment for small children. None of this is about two adults freely deciding to engage in a mutually enjoyable practice behind closed doors. While Lori could theoretically walk out the door, she doesn't feel that this is an option. She doesn't have the power in the relationship - her health is poor, he has the money, and after all of her church "counseling" she must feel that she'd be rejected by everyone if she ever left. So, Ken's clearly turned on by Lori admitting she's a "naughty girl" and is making this spanking comments, and she's not really in a position to be giving 100% free and voluntary consent. She's then advocating this stuff as a societal norm, and actively trying to make it difficult for women to ever be in a position to give or refuse consent.

[Hisey]

Wow, that is an excellent and insightful description of Lori and Ken's relationship. Well done!

[wayward]

There's been research linking corporal punishment in childhood to sexual issues in adulthood. So it's not too surprising that it'd show up with fundies through female submission, "domestic discipline", and other strange stuff.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There's been research linking corporal punishment in childhood to sexual issues in adulthood. So it's not too surprising that it'd show up with fundies through female submission, "domestic discipline", and other strange stuff.

Makes sense. Tons of the language is similar. As well as the "pain is a great teacher" line, you find descriptions of spanking releasing anger/tension and leading to emotional closeness afterward. If someone grows up experiencing this stuff from someone that they love and rely upon, "for their own good", and if some of them find that they are willing to go through the spanking part in order to get to the closeness afterward, I could see them being more likely to repeat this pattern as an adult.

The other legacy is that someone who experienced physical discipline is more likely to insist that a parent did it out of love "for my own good", and that there were no valid alternatives. It's truly scary for some of these folks to be able to admit that a parent may have been flawed, and that they didn't need to experience the physical punishment in order to become a good person. It's easier to insist that spanking is truly necessary.

[yewchapel]

The blurring of boundaries between sexual pleasure and disciplining children here (with Mary and Lori, and most of all Ken) is truly, truly disturbing. Completely fine with bedroom-only spanking that is pleasurable and between mutually consenting adults. Less fine with 24/7 BDSM lifestyle. Totally not fine with spanking children, and even less OK with all the giggly all-girls-together delight at being spanked coming from women who happily abuse their kids and encourage others to do the same. So many frightening red flags.

[Koala]

The blurring of boundaries between sexual pleasure and disciplining children here (with Mary and Lori, and most of all Ken) is truly, truly disturbing. Completely fine with bedroom-only spanking that is pleasurable and between mutually consenting adults. Less fine with 24/7 BDSM lifestyle. Totally not fine with spanking children, and even less OK with all the giggly all-girls-together delight at being spanked coming from women who happily abuse their kids and encourage others to do the same. So many frightening red flags.

I agree 100%. It's fucking scary

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I don't put knives in the dishwasher because Alton Brown said it was bad (for the knives, obviously, not the dishwasher). Not because he's a man, but because he has to be the biggest kitchen geek on the planet.

I agree 100%. It's fucking scary

Seriously. If you get off from spanking in the bedroom you should absolutely not be spanking your children.* I'm seriously queasy.

*I don't think anyone should be spanking children, but this is beyond the pale.

[laura oz]

Makes sense. Tons of the language is similar. As well as the "pain is a great teacher" line, you find descriptions of spanking releasing anger/tension and leading to emotional closeness afterward. If someone grows up experiencing this stuff from someone that they love and rely upon, "for their own good", and if some of them find that they are willing to go through the spanking part in order to get to the closeness afterward, I could see them being more likely to repeat this pattern as an adult.

The other legacy is that someone who experienced physical discipline is more likely to insist that a parent did it out of love "for my own good", and that there were no valid alternatives. It's truly scary for some of these folks to be able to admit that a parent may have been flawed, and that they didn't need to experience the physical punishment in order to become a good person. It's easier to insist that spanking is truly necessary.

My grandparents were fundamentalists and my mom got a spanking every. day. of. her. life. After she was beaten, she had to give my grandfather a kiss and hug, and she had to thank him for loving her enough to discipline her and tell him she loved him. She was all kinds of fucked up on the relationship front. She equated being beaten with love. My childhood sucked because of it. And they wonder why I rebelled?!

[snuggles911]

My grandparents were fundamentalists and my mom got a spanking every. day. of. her. life. After she was beaten, she had to give my grandfather a kiss and hug, and she had to thank him for loving her enough to discipline her and tell him she loved him. She was all kinds of fucked up on the relationship front. She equated being beaten with love. My childhood sucked because of it. And they wonder why I rebelled?!

Weird, the other day Sunshine Mary linked to a post on her old blog: leticiamary.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/advice-for-a-former-slut-married-to-a-beta-provider-to-whom-she-is-not-sexually-attracted. In it she writes the following:

Consider asking your husband if he would be willing to spank you as part of foreplay.

Please don’t panic. Spanking is not a slippery slope that will lead to BDSM, disturbing fetishes or deviant sexual practices. I can promise you that from personal experience; you won’t be spanked one day and in leather restraints the next. Some people practice Christian Domestic Discipline, but that is actually not what I am recommending either. This is only to be about increasing your attraction to him by having him display dominance via consensual sexual aggression.

It is his decision if he would be willing to try this; this may be outside his comfort zone completely, and he may be feeling very mistrustful of you, but if he is willing to try it, you may not be sure of what to do. Here is one possible way to go: first, ask him to buy a wooden hair brush that has a very flat back (the curved ones tend to leave more bruises). The brush should be on your dresser.

He can sit down on the edge of the bed and tell you to bring the brush to him. Get it, and then kneel down on the floor in front of him and hand the brush to him. He can then pull you firmly but lovingly across his lap, either with lingerie on or no bottoms. It might be easier to have your legs supported on the bed, but your hands off the bed so that you are slightly off balance. He can then administer the spanking; he might want to know that he can swat fairly hard without causing bruises, but even if you do have a bruise the next day, you won’t die.

The number of strokes should be up to him, not you; he decides when the spanking is over (h/t 7man for that idea), not you. When he is done, get on your knees in front of him and say thank you to him. You should thank him because he is doing something that may be outside his comfort zone in order to help you, and you do not deserve it. He is doing this out of love for you, so show him the gratitude he so richly deserves.

Scripture to meditate upon: For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:11

Talk about mixing discipline with sexual fetishes. Definitely proof that you should never spank your child if this stuff turns you on (not that I think you should ever spank your child, period.

[wayward]

The blurring of boundaries between sexual pleasure and disciplining children here (with Mary and Lori, and most of all Ken) is truly, truly disturbing. Completely fine with bedroom-only spanking that is pleasurable and between mutually consenting adults. Less fine with 24/7 BDSM lifestyle. Totally not fine with spanking children, and even less OK with all the giggly all-girls-together delight at being spanked coming from women who happily abuse their kids and encourage others to do the same. So many frightening red flags.

It kind of seems like bad boundaries is a common theme in very controlling families, which might contribute to sexual abuse.

[wayward]

Talk about mixing discipline with sexual fetishes. Definitely proof that you should never spank your child if this stuff turns you on (not that I think you should ever spank your child, period.

Yeah, and it's telling that her view of reality is so distorted that she doesn't seem to have any idea how inappropriate this is.

[Arete]

Weird, the other day Sunshine Mary linked to a post on her old blog: leticiamary.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/advice-for-a-former-slut-married-to-a-beta-provider-to-whom-she-is-not-sexually-attracted. In it she writes the following:

Talk about mixing discipline with sexual fetishes. Definitely proof that you should never spank your child if this stuff turns you on (not that I think you should ever spank your child, period.

I do not have adequate words to describe how completely fucked up this is, if you'll pardon the pun. If I could go into a corner, rock back and forth a few minutes, and get up not remembering this post, I would.

Consensual spanking in the bedroom does not make me reach for my smelling salts, but when when you mix in some scripture I want my couch! I wish this was a Poe. I wish this idiot woman knew enough about consensual spanking to know its about pleasure, not discipline. Furthermore I wish this dumb twat had the common sense to know that you are NEVER supposed to take it past the comfort of the submissive partner, which I formerly thought was under the knowledge set that is bestowed even to a patch of microgreens.

I'm done now.

[curlytoes79]

What's up with these Christian ladies and their kink? Do you think their BSDM fascination followed their submission, or the submission is a way to justify their BSDM fetish?

I think the latter, but they'd rather be known as evangelical Christian women than as ball-gag freaks. But I've never really met a BDSM fanatic who so relentlessly tried to push his/her lifestyle on others, so I kinda wish they'd give up the Jesus thing and just dive into the fetish component. They'd be happier, we'd be happier, everyone would be happier.

[wayward]

Weird, the other day Sunshine Mary linked to a post on her old blog: leticiamary.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/advice-for-a-former-slut-married-to-a-beta-provider-to-whom-she-is-not-sexually-attracted. In it she writes the following:

Talk about mixing discipline with sexual fetishes. Definitely proof that you should never spank your child if this stuff turns you on (not that I think you should ever spank your child, period.

Kind of creepy how similar some of the worst advice from "Christian" authors about child discipline is to the kink stuff you quoted (that's thinly disguised as religion). Just check out Ted Tripp, Roy Lessin, etc.

Emeth Hesed has an excellent blog post at http://emethhesed.com/2012/06/17/how-sp ... adulthood/ . I wonder if Lori was raised this way, and if so, whether that contributed to her problems. (Not breaking link because I don't think she'd have a problem with FJ.)

[Conuly]

Spanking is not a slippery slope that will lead to BDSM, disturbing fetishes or deviant sexual practices.

You know, I have a pretty open mind about BDSM, disturbing fetishes, and deviant sexual practices. My normal view is that so long as everybody consents and nobody goes to the hospital, I don't really care.

But exactly how deep in do you have to be to not see that wanting your husband to punish you literally like a child is within the realm of what most of us would consider at least very different. Disturbing, yes, given that is how they punish their actual children. I mean, seriously, ew!

[Arete]

Not to mention that whole kneeling in front of him after to thank him for "correcting" you, which is right out of the fundie spanking playbook for children where a lot of them make the kids thank them and say "I love you" after they are spanked. *shudders* They absolutely are crossing the lines back and forth in terms of how they interact with their kids and how they interact with each other in the bedroom. Mixing your kink and your child rearing is not different and it is not OK. It is deviant.

[wayward]

Not to mention that whole kneeling in front of him after to thank him for "correcting" you, which is right out of the fundie spanking playbook for children where a lot of them make the kids thank them and say "I love you" after they are spanked. *shudders* They absolutely are crossing the lines back and forth in terms of how they interact with their kids and how they interact with each other in the bedroom. Mixing your kink and your child rearing is not different and it is not OK. It is deviant.

Yes, and some fundies think it's appropriate to pull down the kid's underwear to spank them, which would also be right out of a fetish playbook.

http://tripptomars.blogspot.com/2008/09 ... tripp.html

I've wondered if this kind of thing creates perpetrators as well as victims. It does have some sexual overtones, and it's also inconsistent with the ideas that underwear areas are private and that people have the right to set boundaries. What kind of message might a young boy get if he watches his father pull down his sister's underwear?

[Koala]

Any guess as to what Lori is talking about today? :(

One young woman told me when she asked her two and a half year old son to come to her to change his diaper, he ran away. I told her she must take a wooden spoon or some other object and spank him on his bottom hard enough so it will hurt. She told me it worked beautifully. She never had to spank him because if she just shows him the spoon, he obeys. The best thing would be for a child to obey you before he even sees the spoon!

I realize spanking a child is very controversial in today's climate. However, I will always teach what the Bible teaches regardless of what "the experts" are saying. Rebellion is a terrible thing and must be dealt with or you may end up having a child that causes much pain in your life later on.

You're an evil woman Lori...I can think of anything more vile than causing an innocent child pain.

[Koala]

You know...the more I think about it, the more I worry for poor little Emma and her brother. We already know that Lori's son is a reflection of the way his mother raised him (refusing Emma food when she's hungry and force feeding her when she's not...Lori proclaiming with glee, "Emma's not the boss!"). What do their lives look like surrounded by people like this?

I wonder if Lori's son is aware that his mother is posting comments about Ken spanking her on SSM's blog? I wonder if he read the comment where Lori said that she had to whisper in Ken's ear that she "had been a naughty girl"? I wonder if this makes him second guess her at all. I wonder if anyone in their real life has alarm bells going off right now. Because something is seriously off here. :(

[JMarie]

Anyone else think of Amy and Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory while reading this thread?

[Mela99]

Sigh . . .