Pope Francis: Heretic or Just Really Swell Guy?

[Cran]

I think the passages are found in "Lumen Gentium"... but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

[darareaksmey]

i dont know about doctrine but that is not new for me, im catholic and i remember when i was a child that i was worried about good people going to hell, and i was told that even the indigenous people lost in the rainforest who dont know that god exist can go to heaven if they are good. Actually the way they explained that it was more like every person go to heaven by default and only the really bad persons who dont repent for their sins go to hell, i found funny the christians that say all the time that other christians cant go to heaven just because they attend a different church.

Color me still very confused. Why then all the hoops for Catholics, if in the end heaven is the default setting? Don't tell me every Catholic is as squishy about things as Francis is, because I know many who aren't, who would tell me right now they believe X, Y and Z are necessary for salvation. Think, for example, about the annulment process. My FIL, who remarried briefly outside the church after his first (Catholic) marriage broke up, never got an annulment and continues to sit sadly in the pew without communion at Mass, because his priest told him he can't have access to the means of grace because he is *an adulterer*. Is what Vatican II said, that Pope Francis seemingly echoed in his homily, not enough to permit the FIL to partake of holy communion, or does it just apply to atheists?

I don't mean to offend any Catholics here, and I'm not trying to be snide. I considered Catholicism myself before DH and I married, but in the end I just couldn't deal with the misogyny and games like the one being played with FIL. When I ask if Francis is a heretic or a good guy, I guess I am asking why his particular pronouncement about atheists and salvation is even news now, if it was doctrine since Vatican II. And why do you have the Vatican Press Office (which could be populated by a den of snakes for all I know), walking back the statement and spinning it into something else (at least as I interpret their statement.)

I don't know why I care. As I said before, I'm pretty sure I'll see even unrepentant atheist sinners in heaven, and I think a certqin grumpy priest will be surprised to see me there. But I do find the whole subject fascinating.

[Arete]

Is what Vatican II said, that Pope Francis seemingly echoed in his homily, not enough to permit the FIL to partake of holy communion, or does it just apply to atheists?

No, it is not enough to permit your FIL taking communion. The sacraments are closed to non Christians, non Catholic Christians, as well as Catholics that have broken certain rules. The divorce issue is a big one, and one that causes a lot of unwarranted hurt among otherwise faithful Catholics. What Francis demonstrated was that being saved and being Catholic are not the same thing.

[Savoring Samsara]

I don't think there are any dyed in the wool Roman Catholics posting on FJ.

There are actually a few. JenXer and luv2run, who have posted in past Conversion Diary/Jennifer Fulwiler threads, described themselves as fairly traditional and observant Catholics, I think.

[Diana]

No, it is not enough to permit your FIL taking communion. The sacraments are closed to non Christians, non Catholic Christians, as well as Catholics that have broken certain rules. The divorce issue is a big one, and one that causes a lot of unwarranted hurt among otherwise faithful Catholics. What Francis demonstrated was that being saved and being Catholic are not the same thing.

Color me still very confused. Why then all the hoops for Catholics, if in the end heaven is the default setting? Don't tell me every Catholic is as squishy about things as Francis is, because I know many who aren't, who would tell me right now they believe X, Y and Z are necessary for salvation. Think, for example, about the annulment process. My FIL, who remarried briefly outside the church after his first (Catholic) marriage broke up, never got an annulment and continues to sit sadly in the pew without communion at Mass, because his priest told him he can't have access to the means of grace because he is *an adulterer*. Is what Vatican II said, that Pope Francis seemingly echoed in his homily, not enough to permit the FIL to partake of holy communion, or does it just apply to atheists?

the little kids cant take the communion before their first communion, but they go to heaven eventhough

[Hane]

I'm pretty sure the Pope's message about universal salvation for all people of good will is primarily geared toward Catholics (particularly toward those who think "ours is the only right way"), not toward anyone else. That's what I've been telling the non-Catholics who have their knickers in a twist, shrieking, "But I don't GAF what the Pope says!'

[curlytoes79]

I'm not ready to declare him a "swell guy." This is a dude who called gay marriage "a machination of the devil that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.†Nice! He would need to make a clear statement that he supports equal rights and dignity for all people (including gays) before I'd cut him any slack. But he does seem like less of a tight-ass than John Paul.

[OkToBeTakei]

I completely disagree. Revolutions never happen by powerful people deigning to make small changes that benefit the little people. And revolutions never happen by the oppressed sitting patiently waiting for the leaders to make the necessary changes. You're lucky that you don't actually need any change to live your life. I'm glad you're satisfied with the small changes, because the women who are dying from lack of abortions certainly won't be satisfied with this miniscule change. The gay men who are getting HIV because they don't have access to condoms won't be satisfied with this. The children who have been abused for decades won't be satisfied. The women who feel called to be church leaders but are denied that option won't be satisfied. But as long as you're happy that this one is slightly less reprehensible than the previous one, I guess that's all that counts.

No, you don't have to defend your religion at all. But I certainly won't change my opinion of it this easily.

What a load of bollocks.

If you noticed I said default religion. I practice no religion therefore feel no urge to defend any church. Also just out of interest you have zero idea of what changes I require to live my life or those of my family. Point of order you know :lol:

But this type of post is just so much vacuous posturing. Revolution my arse. You knock yourself out shouting out for a revolution on the interwebz or even in real life stating exactly the issues you have that are intrinsic to the catholic church. It is incredibly naive.

Sure, a slightly less conservative and forward thinking pope is not exactly utopia, but the alternative might have been even less so. So realistically this 'revolution' you speak of whilst what is required, is HIGHLY unlikely to happen eh? If small changes can push the millions of catholics around the world in a different more open direction then it is indeed a small step. Too small. But a step.

So yes. I will take the small changes, because a revolution is so much pie in the sky in REALITY. No matter what your opinion or mine is of the catholic church we are but teeny cogs and whilst I hope it could become along with every other judgemental religion more in line with what I would like, I don't see that change happening overnight.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

On the hell thing, as was mentioned in another thread, growing up catholic we never really had many bible stories in school etc. Same goes for hell. It was not mentioned much. I certainly had no fear of hell as a child (or adult). We were not taught that sinners go to hell. Again, we thought that was a "Protestant thing".

I think this guy can only do good. Like OKTBT, I'll take the small changes.

My childhood priest preached hellfire and damnation, and my catechism teacher told me when I was 8 or 9 that my parents were both going to hell because they were living in sin and I was illegitimate. My parents had been married for 5 years when I was born, they just never had a church wedding. That was the last time I heard anything about hell or anyone not Catholic going to hell, though. My best friend, who's an atheist, came to Christmas Mass with my dad and me last year and was pleasantly surprised when the priest said something about everyone being saved as long as they're good people.

I'm not sure about Pope Francis yet. I mean, I like him, I just don't trust that the good things he's saying are real yet. And of course I'd love to see him opening the Rome pride parade, wearing a rainbow flag and throwing condoms with a female Catholic priest next to him, but I'll take baby steps over no changes at all.

[Jinderella]

Today our newspapers mentioned how pope Francis criticised parents with just one child during morning mass. I can't find an English news item about it, and I think most of you wouldn't be able to read Dutch, but he appeared to have said parents with just one child are addicted to their materialism and temporary-ness (can't find a beter translation) and their need for cars and hollidays is hindering them in their path to Jesus. He calls it a sickness.

Soooooooo, quit a quiverfull man, I supose?

I know lots of people who would have loved to have more than one child. Sometimes God just doesn't listen to prayers...

[darareaksmey]

the little kids cant take the communion before their first communion, but they go to heaven eventhough

I guess my advice to my FIL and those like him, then, would be, forget you were ever Catholic. You are sweating something unnecessarily. The ultimate outcome will be the same. The grace is there for you whether you are divorced and remarried or not. Which is what I have been trying to tell him from my Lutheran perspective all along. :? :? :?

[Nothing2CHere]

Today our newspapers mentioned how pope Francis criticised parents with just one child during morning mass. I can't find an English news item about it, and I think most of you wouldn't be able to read Dutch, but he appeared to have said parents with just one child are addicted to their materialism and temporary-ness (can't find a beter translation) and their need for cars and hollidays is hindering them in their path to Jesus. He calls it a sickness.

Soooooooo, quit a quiverfull man, I supose?

I know lots of people who would have loved to have more than one child. Sometimes God just doesn't listen to prayers...

No, Pope Frankie, I only have one child because I'm addicted to my SANITY. I was such an emotional, anxiety-ridden mess during my pregnancy and the first few months of LittleBabyNothing's life, even before he was born my husband agreed, "We're only having one." If God really wants me to have another child, he'll figure out a way to get around my birth control pill.

[Mela99]

So far, I'm happy with what Francis has said. Jesus wasn't a bigoted douchebag; it's about time people in his church started acting like it.

[Arete]

I guess my advice to my FIL and those like him, then, would be, forget you were ever Catholic. You are sweating something unnecessarily. The ultimate outcome will be the same. The grace is there for you whether you are divorced and remarried or not. Which is what I have been trying to tell him from my Lutheran perspective all along. :? :? :?

I would be surprised if your FIL is sad about not being able to take communion because he fears for his eternal salvation. What he probably misses is the sense of full belonging in his Catholic community. He obviously still loves that community very much, so telling him that it doesn't matter, he'll still get to heaven, makes no difference to him. It is the complete belonging that he wants, within that particular expression of Christianity.

[RachelB]

My favorite headline in a long time: Vatican corrects infallible pope: atheists will still burn in hell

Sample:

It makes for an interesting spectacle to see the infallible pope being corrected by his handlers, doesn't it? For a moment it was possible to recall the welcoming and indulgent style of the short lived Pope John Paul I in the unexpectedly all-embracing words of Pope Francis. But you'll recall how quickly John Paul I was replaced by the much more doctrinaire John Paul II.

There's no question that Pope Francis sees the divinity in all human beings, but that's a message that comes with caveats. God may make them all, Jew and Gentile, but unless they're Catholic they're ultimately kindling. The Vatican waited 24 hours to correct him, but they corrected him.

Who exactly is in charge of this operation, again?

[Anxious Girl]

My favorite headline in a long time: Vatican corrects infallible pope: atheists will still burn in hell

Sample:

Who exactly is in charge of this operation, again?

Is it possible that Benedict still has some influence even though he's not the Pope anymore?

NZR64EF3OpA

[louisa05]

I was going to post what Cran said. The salvation of even those who are non-believers who sincerely seek the truth and do good is in the been the official teaching of the Church ever since the Second Vatican Council. Of course, Pope Benny did everything in his power to completely trash Vatican II.

I wish I could cite the section of the Vatican II documents where you could find this, but I'm not sure I have my copy anymore.

I was a convert to the Catholic Church, but now consider myself a Buddhist/atheist. If the Church had continued on the progressive path that it was on in the 60s and 70s, I might still be a Catholic. (That's a pretty big might there.) But the Church took a hard turn rightward that was just something alien to me. I'll never go back. I've been a seeker all my life, but I've come to the conclusion that I just don't believe in god and really never have.

Nostra Aetate addresses this in regard to non-Christian religions.

Also, one source I read via Catholic Democrats said that Rosica is not a Vatican spokesman. Wikipedia concurs that he is not. He apparently served as an English language media attache for a period and as a spokesperson for the period of the papal transition but his official position ended with the election of Francis. In other words, his opinion of the homily in question is not official or from the Vatican.

And a small detail...every word a pope says is not infallible. No pope has issued infallible doctrine since around 1950.

[Hane]

My favorite headline in a long time: Vatican corrects infallible pope: atheists will still burn in hell

Sample:

Who exactly is in charge of this operation, again?

Ohhhh, I SO want to scream and throw things. Here are these guys, trying to out-holy the freaking Pope.

[darareaksmey]

My favorite headline in a long time: Vatican corrects infallible pope: atheists will still burn in hell

Sample:

Who exactly is in charge of this operation, again?

Who, indeed. Francis may be a heretic (or at least an espouser of faulty Catholic theology) AND a really swell guy, but with the Papal Peanut Gallery ready to correct him, it may not make any difference.

[louisa05]

Ohhhh, I SO want to scream and throw things. Here are these guys, trying to out-holy the freaking Pope.

That crowd, the "more Catholic than the pope" people weren't even happy with John Paul II. Believe me, half the people I went to high school with belong in that group. Benedict was their hero and will remain so. JP II liked people too much and didn't talk about rules enough for them. I think a lot of them would be happier with the legalism of fundamentalism where dress codes and rules about the minutiae of every day life are common and constantly talked about. And this pope is certainly not to their liking. One friend of mine, a fundy Catholic basically, is pissed because he has not talked about abortion in any official capacity that she can find. Because that is all that matters and this "open the doors" stuff is too "liberal" and, after all, what will become of the church if we start letting people in and talking about love instead of keeping people out and making rules??

I will also reiterate, that it appears that Rosica who issued the "correction" does not, at this time, speak for the Vatican in any official capacity. He did for the papal transition period and the media has misrepresented his current position based on that. So there is no "peanut gallery" correcting him. Just one guy speaking in no official capacity.

[darareaksmey]

Thanks, louisa, I wondered who that guy was. I read that the Vatican Press Office itself is a piece of work, maybe those are the "official" more Catholic than thou guys.

[Arete]

In Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox parlance, these people are refered to as "paraecclesiastical players". Look, there are some people who are such religious masochists that they go well above and beyond what their specific faith's leaders and theologians say. They are forever whining that the Church is getting lax, letting people slip, and that any religious consensus that is even a shade nuanced is just WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

They then establish freaky little organizations like the Opus Dei or the Ephraim Monasteries that cater to people who have to have their every move and thought controlled. Yes, there are people like that and they wouldn't exercise their reason or show compassion anymore than they would try and pet a cobra. It's dangerous.

[darareaksmey]

Bumping this to report that my ELCA pastor made extensive use of Pope Francis's remarks in today's sermon, which was based on the account of the Roman centurion and his sick slave (somewhere in Luke's Gospel, don't have the reference handy.) As God used the (non-believer) centurion to demonstrate the power of faith, so God uses all kinds of people to do his work, and, we believe, blesses them all equally. The good work should come first and the impulse to do it should not be smothered by the vocal few who think God has to follow certain strict rules. Do the good, we all come together in agreement on that, and the rest, whatever it is, is up to God.

I'm sure that for atheists this interpretation may look like just a way for someone like to me to reconcile everything in a satisfying way, but I'm OK with that. At least it supports my continued belief that God has his own modus operandi that no church--Roman Catholic, fundy, ELCA, whomever--can claim to have sole understanding of.

To answer my own question about Francis: I"m adopting a wait-and-see attitude. Maybe he will surprise everyone.

[treehugger]

I don't know if anyone has brought this up already - I tried to find it and didn't see anything. Apparently, the pope believes everyone is redeemed - and it sounds like he thinks everyone is going to heaven (unless I am reading this all wrong):

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.â€

Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05/22/pope_at_mass:_culture_of_encounter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445

of the Vatican Radio website

[Artemis]

And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good.

Now this, this I can really tie to.

We need to write it in big letters across the sky. And tattoo it on our ?favourite? fundies' foreheads so they see it every time they meet each other.