Pope Francis: Heretic or Just Really Swell Guy?

[darareaksmey]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/2 ... 20757.html

Seems to me that somewhere back in my Lutheran catechism, I learned that the early church declared it heretical for people to think salvation was achieved even for those who do not believe in the Christian God, the divinity of Jesus, or Jesus's resurrection. Not being Catholic, their heresies don't mean much for me, but doesn't the new pope approach this with his recent pronouncement?

[linnea27]

Iiiiiiiinteresting.

[debrand]

He is basing this on the concept of the natural laws. It is based on a verse in Romans. (don't remember which one) He isn't saying anything radical for Roman Catholicism but it is probably revolutionary to some Protestants.

[darareaksmey]

He is basing this on the concept of the natural laws. It is based on a verse in Romans. (don't remember which one) He isn't saying anything radical for Roman Catholicism but it is probably revolutionary to some Protestants.

Soooooo, all that junk in the Creed about "I believe" isn't necessary, nor is Eucharist, confession, etc.? Then what is the Catholic Church all about? Seriously, I don't mean to be flippant. I actually believe this personally myself. In fact, I believe God saves everyone, even Hitler , Ceaucescu and Pol Pot. But I've personally sat through a Catholic homily in which the priest said, in essence, do what the Holy Roman Church tells you to do, or you will go to hell. So if everyone gets a pass......? I don't get it.

[mockingbird]

Recently he also told Catholics to be "annoying" and not just rest in their little religious comfort zone. From the context of the speech you could take it as trying to recruit new followers (or just simply act on their faith instead of going through the motions?), but he also says the church needs this locally so I hope he also means that he wants people to speak up in the future about things that are going wrong in the church. Maybe I'm just too optimistic.

"There are backseat Christians, right? Those who are well mannered, who do everything well, but are unable to bring people to the Church through proclamation and Apostolic zeal. Today we can ask the Holy Spirit to give us all this Apostolic fervor and to give us the grace to be annoying when thin are too quiet in the Church the grace to go out to the outskirts of life. The Church has so much need of this! Not only in distant lands, in the young churches, among people who do not know Jesus Christ, but here in the cities, in our cities, they need this proclamation of Jesus Christ. So let us ask the Holy Spirit for this grace of Apostolic zeal, let’s be Christians with apostolic zeal. And if we annoy people, blessed be the Lord. Onwards, as the Lord says to Paul, ‘take courage!' "

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05 ... en1-692628

As far as thinking every good person goes to heaven, I'm not sure what you're actually supposed to think but I think a lot of Catholics do think that. Even with the Catholic guilt stuff, which should seem counter-intuitive, I basically got the message that very few people actually go to Hell. Lots of people went to Purgatory though!

[debrand]

Soooooo, all that junk in the Creed about "I believe" isn't necessary, nor is Eucharist, confession, etc.? Then what is the Catholic Church all about? Seriously, I don't mean to be flippant. I actually believe this personally myself. In fact, I believe God saves everyone, even Hitler , Ceaucescu and Pol Pot. But I've personally sat through a Catholic homily in which the priest said, in essence, do what the Holy Roman Church tells you to do, or you will go to hell. So if everyone gets a pass......? I don't get it.

If I understood it, I'd probably still be going to mass.

:shrug:

[OkToBeTakei]

If I understood it, I'd probably still be going to mass.

:shrug:

Same here. Although regarding the Creed. Whilst its says I believe in one holy catholic church (apostolic) etc etc. It does not say and everybody else is wrong. I always took it at that value I guess.

I believe in resurrection of the dead (unless you are not catholic)

I believe in the forgiveness of sins (unless you are not catholic.)

I interpreted it to mean I believe in all of those things for everybody but I suppose I need to belong to some group with a name.

Confession is a load of crap.

That's a flying saucer sweetie without the sherbet inside. Not Jesus' body.

[merrily]

Where's the hand wringing from the fundies? Is Rebecca !1!!! commenting on this soon? (I'm sorry if I confuse fundies)

[Cran]

Uhm... this has been the teaching of the RKK since Vatican II. If journalists would actually do some RESEARCH before writing OMG Pope turns heads because he said something so new and amazing! (Not directed at the OP, but at the person who wrote the article linked to.)

It doesn't meant the Church, sacraments etc. are superfluous in the mind of the Church herself, but that a person who was honestly searching for the truth in life and did not come to believe in Christ and the Church without own fault can be saved.

If this "loophole" wasn't in Catholic dogma, it would be a bit hard to explain what happens to people who REALLY never hear the gospel or lived before Christ and were no Jews.

[Freyacat]

Francis is certainly an improvement over Benedict, but I wouldn't call him a "swell guy" until the church stops hating on gays and women. He's already said the church will continue to discipline nuns who don't toe the party line. I also want to see him promote safe sex, and to stop making untrue claims about condoms not being effective.

Basically, I want to see the Pope welcoming women to the priesthood, welcoming gays to the Church, and throwing condoms from the Popemobile like candy!

[crazyforkate]

I have massive problems with the Catholic church, but I must admit I'm enjoying Pope Frankie so far. At least they didn't pick another Ratzinger. Yes, it's still got a rotten viewpoint of the world, but baby steps are happening. I'm glad at least for that. I would certainly never join or support the RCC, but if he helps improve it even a little - good for him.

[darareaksmey]

If I understood it, I'd probably still be going to mass.

:shrug:

:lol:

[darareaksmey]

*sigh* Well, Pope Francis says something pleasant about the salvation of even nonCatholic do-gooders, then a Vatican spokesman has to come along and spoil the fun:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... -gets-the/

It's just a short quote, probably not even all the guy said, but the turd in the punchbowl is this:

The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a spokesman for the Vatican, said those who have knowledge of the Catholic Church “cannot be saved†if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her,†CNN reported. He also said that “every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.â€

This statement is too short to get much out of, but I swear it sounds more like the priest who upset me so with that homily long ago. The Church is here, its teachings are available for everyone to follow, if you choose not to, you've chosen a ticket to hell.

Let me go see if I can find the whole statement of clarification.

[PennySycamore]

I was going to post what Cran said. The salvation of even those who are non-believers who sincerely seek the truth and do good is in the been the official teaching of the Church ever since the Second Vatican Council. Of course, Pope Benny did everything in his power to completely trash Vatican II.

I wish I could cite the section of the Vatican II documents where you could find this, but I'm not sure I have my copy anymore.

I was a convert to the Catholic Church, but now consider myself a Buddhist/atheist. If the Church had continued on the progressive path that it was on in the 60s and 70s, I might still be a Catholic. (That's a pretty big might there.) But the Church took a hard turn rightward that was just something alien to me. I'll never go back. I've been a seeker all my life, but I've come to the conclusion that I just don't believe in god and really never have.

[Arete]

I have heard a Greek Orthodox priest explain salvation for non Christians in pretty much the same way Pope Francis does. He will tell you that for those in the Church, it is not superfluous because the Church and its sacraments provide known guideposts and reminders throughout life. Orthodoxy overall holds to a belief that no one can know whether they or any other human being is saved, that salvation is a lifelong process between God and each individual, and that another's status with God is no one else's business.

I'm so sick and tired of evangelicals thinking they represent all Christians or the sum total of Christian thought.

[OkToBeTakei]

I honestly feel no urge to defend my default religion at all. Same with with most general things.

I kind of enjoy his stuff so far. I think I want a rainbow flag waving pontiff who agrees with abortion.

But I am happy enough to see change. It is not clever to expect it. Just because you want it.

I will take the the small changes.

[Arete]

OKTBT, there is a Greek saying that translates "If you put in a bean here and a bean there, sooner or later you are going to have a sack of beans." It's a lot more cutesy in the original Greek and it rhymes, but you get the jist. ;)

[OkToBeTakei]

OKTBT, there is a Greek saying that translates "If you put in a bean here and a bean there, sooner or later you are going to have a sack of beans." It's a lot more cutesy in the original Greek and it rhymes, but you get the jist. ;)

I do indeed.

The fundies just want tinned beans though my dear :lol:

[RachelB]

I was going to post what Cran said. The salvation of even those who are non-believers who sincerely seek the truth and do good is in the been the official teaching of the Church ever since the Second Vatican Council. Of course, Pope Benny did everything in his power to completely trash Vatican II.

I wish I could cite the section of the Vatican II documents where you could find this, but I'm not sure I have my copy anymore.

I was a convert to the Catholic Church, but now consider myself a Buddhist/atheist. If the Church had continued on the progressive path that it was on in the 60s and 70s, I might still be a Catholic. (That's a pretty big might there.) But the Church took a hard turn rightward that was just something alien to me. I'll never go back. I've been a seeker all my life, but I've come to the conclusion that I just don't believe in god and really never have.

Thank you for the bolded. I was just thinking how odd it is that there's a pope who's not trying to pretend that Vatican II never happened.

[Irishy]

On the hell thing, as was mentioned in another thread, growing up catholic we never really had many bible stories in school etc. Same goes for hell. It was not mentioned much. I certainly had no fear of hell as a child (or adult). We were not taught that sinners go to hell. Again, we thought that was a "Protestant thing".

I think this guy can only do good. Like OKTBT, I'll take the small changes.

[Jinger Jar]

Pop Francis is neither a heretic nor a swell guy. He's a Jesuit. He's exactly what one would expect a Jesuit pope to be. :clap:

[bananacat]

I honestly feel no urge to defend my default religion at all. Same with with most general things.

I kind of enjoy his stuff so far. I think I want a rainbow flag waving pontiff who agrees with abortion.

But I am happy enough to see change. It is not clever to expect it. Just because you want it.

I will take the the small changes.

I completely disagree. Revolutions never happen by powerful people deigning to make small changes that benefit the little people. And revolutions never happen by the oppressed sitting patiently waiting for the leaders to make the necessary changes. You're lucky that you don't actually need any change to live your life. I'm glad you're satisfied with the small changes, because the women who are dying from lack of abortions certainly won't be satisfied with this miniscule change. The gay men who are getting HIV because they don't have access to condoms won't be satisfied with this. The children who have been abused for decades won't be satisfied. The women who feel called to be church leaders but are denied that option won't be satisfied. But as long as you're happy that this one is slightly less reprehensible than the previous one, I guess that's all that counts.

No, you don't have to defend your religion at all. But I certainly won't change my opinion of it this easily.

[Irishy]

I think it's because of the hierarchy that only small changes will be acceptable. And in reality, the church may soon become accepting of gay people and women may gain equality. But they will never change their stance on abortion. Maybe they'll grudgingly support abortion to save a life one day but they'll never support abortion for all.

I don't think there are any dyed in the wool Roman Catholics posting on FJ. Certainly not OKTB.

OKTB is not responsible for the institution that is the Catholic Church.

[dawbs]

*snip*

I wish I could cite the section of the Vatican II documents where you could find this, but I'm not sure I have my copy anymore.

*snip*

If someone could tell me where to start in finding that, I'd be eternally grateful. Because discussion of this topic is in full swing at the dawbs house, where none of us are catholic and none of us have a clue :)

[Diana]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Seems to me that somewhere back in my Lutheran catechism, I learned that the early church declared it heretical for people to think salvation was achieved even for those who do not believe in the Christian God, the divinity of Jesus, or Jesus's resurrection. Not being Catholic, their heresies don't mean much for me, but doesn't the new pope approach this with his recent pronouncement?

i dont know about doctrine but that is not new for me, im catholic and i remember when i was a child that i was worried about good people going to hell, and i was told that even the indigenous people lost in the rainforest who dont know that god exist can go to heaven if they are good. Actually the way they explained that it was more like every person go to heaven by default and only the really bad persons who dont repent for their sins go to hell, i found funny the christians that say all the time that other christians cant go to heaven just because they attend a different church.