Sometimes A Two Year Old Is Just A Two Year Old

[VaSportsMom]

WTF is wrong with this man? How can anyone be so proud of reducing their precious toddler to such a state? That poor baby. His father needs locked away along with the mother that was to weak to stand up for her child. This crap isn't parenting, it's abuse!

Petty, but I hate the "wait until your dad gets home" threat. If it is a big deal then handle it when it happens but do not expect a toddler to remember hours later why daddy is disciplining him.

[RachelB]

Do Calvinists not believe in the age of culpability? (I Might have used the wrong term) I know some denominations believe that children can't sin until they reach a certain intellectual maturity.

Nope. As I understand it, they believe you're capable of opposition, defiance, willfulness, and all that other fine stuff as an infant.

This is at least a two-fold problem:

1) Calvin lived in a violent historical moment. It makes sense that he looked around himself and thought, "Wow, the people around me are complete shits to each other." I think the time in which he lived both understandably and unduly influenced his model of human nature and divine justice.

2) The more sleep-deprived and cranky you get as a parent, the more plausible it seems that your children are actually crying, climbing the walls, or barfing out of malice, rather than because they've wet, overtired, or ill. (I am not a parent, just a daughter and aunt. But none of the parents I know are at their best when they're exhausted and frustrated.)

[yewchapel]

Note that not all Calvinists would think that a baby is crying because of sin. The Pearls et al are very extreme Calvinists, most Calvinists are mainstream Presbyterians or Baptists (not SBC Baptists).

I am not a Calvinist but do believe that people are incapable of not sinning, I just would never apply this to a baby.

[August]

Note that not all Calvinists would think that a baby is crying because of sin. The Pearls et al are very extreme Calvinists, most Calvinists are mainstream Presbyterians or Baptists (not SBC Baptists).

I am not a Calvinist but do believe that people are incapable of not sinning, I just would never apply this to a baby.

Ezzo is mainstream Baptist and he very much teaches that newborns sin.

[Arete]

I'm not so sure that some of these "Christian" child beaters are even referencing back to something as concrete as Calvin's doctrine of the total depravity of man. Fundies are about control. Fundies get off on control. Controlling their children makes them feel God like. They will never admit it, but it does. The child to them is nothing more than their creation that they are to control. They don't recognize children as separate beings with their own development, aspirations, hopes, and fears. Children are nothing more than an extension of their own bodies and personalities that must obey their will. They think a 2 year old is capable of malice because they don't recognize a separate person in a different stage of development.

[yewchapel]

Ezzo is mainstream Baptist and he very much teaches that newborns sin.

Not all Baptists are even Calvinist, there are many Arminian Baptists. In fact, beyond the two ordinances of believer's baptism and the Lord's Supper, there is no one issue Baptists agree on. So belief in newborns sinning is not a mainstream Baptist belief.

[doggie]

I am beginning to really hate the word sin. It lumps all human mistakes and bad actions and sometimes good actions and natures and everything else into one neat word. it is much easier to use one word then really look at what all these things truly are.

[yewchapel]

Sin is not easy to pin down, I will admit, but I would classify it as things that damage ourselves or others. But that's just in my own view.

[AVENues]

These people "sin" all the time, the toddler was probably copying their behaviour.

[doggie]

Sin is not easy to pin down, I will admit, but I would classify it as things that damage ourselves or others. But that's just in my own view.

kinds make religion a sin :cracking-up:

[yewchapel]

My religion does not damage me, nor does it damage others. So you are wrong.

[Maggie Mae]

I do not understand Calvinism, at all. What does it matter if you sin, as you are either destined to go, or not go, to Heaven? How on earth can you have Free Will, if it is already determined that you go to Heaven or not?

Ugh. Sorry to anyone who follows it, but I honestly think it's the stupidest religion. Maybe it's because I was raised Catholic, and I learned about it at my (actually very good) catholic school, but seriously. Stupid. Predestination is stupid and selfish. Why act like Jackasses (westburo baptist church i'm looking at you.) if you know you are going to heaven and no one else is?

[yewchapel]

Calvinism isn't a religion, it's a theology that's part of some Protestant denominations. Calvinists are part of the same religion as Catholics, they're both Christians.

Also I don't know if Westboro are Calvinists? I would guess that they're Arminians.

[August]

Not all Baptists are even Calvinist, there are many Arminian Baptists. In fact, beyond the two ordinances of believer's baptism and the Lord's Supper, there is no one issue Baptists agree on. So belief in newborns sinning is not a mainstream Baptist belief.

No, you're wrong. Ezzo is very very mainstream, and entirely based on the sinful nature of the baby, therefore sinful babies is a mainstream baptist belief. Also, your statement is contradictory.

[August]

My religion does not damage me, nor does it damage others. So you are wrong.

Every single religion, except shinto, damages both its adherents and others.

[formergothardite]

I don't think all religions are damaging, but a good chunk of them are. Especially the ones that don't believe in live and let live, they feel like they need to go and "save souls".

And now that I think about it, even the concept of hell is rather damaging, especially for children. Spending my childhood worrying that I might not be truly "saved" and would go to hell was scary. So was the idea that other people who believed differently than I were going to hell.

[debrand]

Calvinism isn't a religion, it's a theology that's part of some Protestant denominations. Calvinists are part of the same religion as Catholics, they're both Christians.

Also I don't know if Westboro are Calvinists? I would guess that they're Arminians.

I am pretty certain that Westboro are hyper Calvinists.

Blech. I got on their site but here is what Westboro puts under its confessions of faith

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom. 10:10

The First London Baptist Confession Of Faith, 1646

The Savoy Declaration Of Faith And Order, 1658

The Philadelphia Confession Of Faith, 1742

I'm not linking to Westboro site. If someone wants to find them, they can do a search.

[thoughtful]

I lay no claim to being an expert on Christianity and the various views of sin. But, hearing this idea, as an outsider, all my life, I've come to think that believing we are all sinners can be pretty benign, depending on how one means it, and what one does about it.

- We are all sinners, meaning "heck, everybody makes mistakes, let's go easy on one another" is rather nice.

- We are all sinners, meaning "don't be self-righteous, let he who is without sin throw the first stone," etc. -- a good reminder, which I think some of the fundies forget completely.

- We are all sinners, but Jesus died for those sins, so you are forgiven if you believe in him -- doesn't exactly thrill me, as a Jewish atheist, but I don't care, as long as that person isn't beating babies, or me.

- We are all sinners, and one should struggle to be good, as redemption can come through works -- if it leads people to be helpful to others, that's nice. If it means someone is rigidly following a set of useless rules, I think it's silly, but it's none of my business if they aren't hurting others.

- We are all sinners, so even babies are being willfully evil and need to be guided to be good -- an ugly way to look at one's own children, and can lead to unnecessary fear and guilt in a child, especially if Hell is mentioned.

- We are all sinners, so even babies are being willfully evil and need the sinful habits beaten out of them - that's a serious problem.

[debrand]

To add to Thoughtful's list

-We are all sinners and can do nothing good unless we become Christians. Everything that we do is worthless

For both adults and children this is a very harmful teaching. It turns god into an abusive spouse who needs to constantly tell their victim how worthless and terrible that they are so that they(the abuser) will be the most important person in their lives.

Some Christian denominations believe in the natural laws and don't have such a negative view of human nature. I know that Catholics catch a lot of flak(and most of it is deserved) for making people feel guilty but I think that Catholic theology is less harsh than Calvinism.

I think that a lot of fundies pick and chose their beliefs based on what appeals to them so it is difficult to determine exactly what school of theology that they belong.

[Savoring Samsara]

Every single religion, except shinto, damages both its adherents and others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

Any religion can be used or misused to support potentially harmful philosophies or activities. It's a bit Orientalist to say that Shinto is magically immune to that.

[salex]

This is a step up, people! He didn't beat his son - or at least he didn't beat the boy to death, as is sometimes the case with other fundies.

Not yet, at least. :(

[EmmieJ]

That post made me feel very sad for the little two-year old. Why are some people unable to realize that very young children do not choose their own behavior for the most part? But way to go dad - making your two year old feel like he's worthless as shit. That sort of stuff doesn't fade, but rather gets firmly entrenched in the psyche.

[docmom]

WTF is wrong with this man? How can anyone be so proud of reducing their precious toddler to such a state? That poor baby. His father needs locked away along with the mother that was to weak to stand up for her child. This crap isn't parenting, it's abuse!

Petty, but I hate the "wait until your dad gets home" threat. If it is a big deal then handle it when it happens but do not expect a toddler to remember hours later why daddy is disciplining him.

I have a three year old. She thinks before and after lunch are two different days. Can you imagine jaywalking and some police officer coming to your place of work two days later and beating the crap out of you for doing it? No wonder the poor kid hit back. I would too!

[FearLyss]

I have some mainstream baptist family members. They are not calvinist (they believe anyone can go to heaven if they are saved) but I could not tell you if they adhere to another theology or not. All of the them (my baptist family members) believe people are born from sin, and thus, are sinners. That said, they do not believe a young child is culpable for their "sins". Honestly, I don't think they even refer to bad behavior as sins when it involves a toddler. They believe that young children and some intellectually disabled/ mentally ill adults are not culpable and receive a free pass to Heaven. According to them, the only people to be judged will be people who are mature enough or are of sound mind to know better. They have never mentioned a specific age because I think they believe it varies depending on the individual.

I feel so sad for this little boy :(

[yewchapel]

No, you're wrong. Ezzo is very very mainstream, and entirely based on the sinful nature of the baby, therefore sinful babies is a mainstream baptist belief. Also, your statement is contradictory.

Please go to the BUGB (Baptist Union of Great Britain) website and point out where they say that sinful babies is a belief of theirs. Sinful babies may be a belief held by some mainstream Baptists, but it is not a mainstream Baptist belief because as I said, there are only two mainstream Baptist beliefs and neither refer to sin at all. And how is my statement contradictory? It's just how things are for Baptists, there is a lot of disagreement amongst them.