Sometimes A Two Year Old Is Just A Two Year Old

[yewchapel]

Every single religion, except shinto, damages both its adherents and others.

Please explain how my religion harms me, with examples.

[yewchapel]

FWIW I don't think that religion is harmful or positive in itself - it is not a sentient being. It's the PEOPLE who belong to religions who cause harm or cause good. They may cause harm or good in the name of their religion, but they would do those things in the name of something else even if they had no religion. You get non-religious fanatics, whether political extremists or animal rights people or whatever. Most religious people aren't fanatical about their religion though, it's mostly about culture for them - weddings, births, death, festivals.

Regarding 'everyone sins', it's nothing more than humans having a natural propensity to fuck up. I also believe that people are born with an innate goodness, and we should try and follow that side rather than the sin/fucking up side - and no, I don't believe following xyz religious rules is needed for this.

[oil]

Every single religion, except shinto, damages both its adherents and others.

I dont agree with August statement, either. Im agnostic, I dont know if theres god or not, but I see religion in many peoples lifes which is very beneficial, happy and satisfying for them. To make such a huge statement that religion damages every one is ignorance.

[August]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

Any religion can be used or misused to support potentially harmful philosophies or activities. It's a bit Orientalist to say that Shinto is magically immune to that.

Oh please, did you check your sense of humor at the door? Samsara

[August]

I dont agree with August statement, either. Im agnostic, I dont know if theres god or not, but I see religion in many peoples lifes which is very beneficial, happy and satisfying for them. To make such a huge statement that religion damages every one is ignorance.

Read a little more, listen a little more, travel a little more.

[oil]

Read a little more, listen a little more, travel a little more.

Im attempting. :lol:

[formergothardite]

Please explain how my religion harms me, with examples.

What religion are you?

[ems]

I am beginning to really hate the word sin. It lumps all human mistakes and bad actions and sometimes good actions and natures and everything else into one neat word. it is much easier to use one word then really look at what all these things truly are.

I'm a Christian and I agree.

[ems]

Sin is not easy to pin down, I will admit, but I would classify it as things that damage ourselves or others. But that's just in my own view.

I would agree with this, but I think that for a lot of people it gets all to easy to look at behaviors from a checklist of "sins" (leaving you always wondering is x a sin? y?) rather than doing the hard work of looking at your behavior and its consequences, your relationships with others, etc. It also becomes easy to point to others' visible "sins" rather than doing this sort of internal seeking and repentance.

Back ot, that poor kid :(. He's too old to understand any concept of sin or wrongdoing, but I'm sure he understands Daddy thinks I'm bad.

Shame is never effective.

[snackle]

To answer why a Calvinist might worry about sin, I was raised Presbyterian (the liberal branch, PCUSA) so we weren't expected to actually believe it, but we had to learn about it in confirmation class. The idea is that we're already predestined for who has the *chance* for heaven. However, we can still screw it up (which omniscient god would have foreseen but still picked us?)

So, basically, you try to not sin on the chance that you're one of the lucky chosen for heaven who would also be unlucky enough to have a vengeful god punishing you for human nature. If you were never chosen in the first place, well, at least you tried to live a good life. Kind of like a corollary to Pascal's wager.

You might see why I thought that was ridiculous and ended up atheist.

[August]

Im attempting. :lol:

I see you live in Tel Aviv. Surely you only haveto step outside to see how evil religion is?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I lay no claim to being an expert on Christianity and the various views of sin. But, hearing this idea, as an outsider, all my life, I've come to think that believing we are all sinners can be pretty benign, depending on how one means it, and what one does about it.

- We are all sinners, meaning "heck, everybody makes mistakes, let's go easy on one another" is rather nice.

- We are all sinners, meaning "don't be self-righteous, let he who is without sin throw the first stone," etc. -- a good reminder, which I think some of the fundies forget completely.

- We are all sinners, but Jesus died for those sins, so you are forgiven if you believe in him -- doesn't exactly thrill me, as a Jewish atheist, but I don't care, as long as that person isn't beating babies, or me.

- We are all sinners, and one should struggle to be good, as redemption can come through works -- if it leads people to be helpful to others, that's nice. If it means someone is rigidly following a set of useless rules, I think it's silly, but it's none of my business if they aren't hurting others.

- We are all sinners, so even babies are being willfully evil and need to be guided to be good -- an ugly way to look at one's own children, and can lead to unnecessary fear and guilt in a child, especially if Hell is mentioned.

- We are all sinners, so even babies are being willfully evil and need the sinful habits beaten out of them - that's a serious problem.

While I agree with the general best-to-worst listings, I still find the idea problematic.

"Nobody's perfect" I can understand. Saying that we are only human and can't be 100% perfect all the time is fine.

At some level, though, free will has to play a role (no, I'm not a Calvinist). Sinning requires knowingly doing something wrong, and babies can't do that. The flip side is that if you say that everyone - even a baby - is a sinner, then sin ceases to have meaning. If everyone does it, it's sounds like no big deal, and then we lose the moral drive to change our actions and make things better.

[oil]

I see you live in Tel Aviv. Surely you only haveto step outside to see how evil religion is?

Its more complicated than that. The problem for making violence its all political 100%. When my grand mother was a child, the Muslim neighbors baby sit her when her parents went to temple, and my grand mothers parents baby sit the Muslim children when their parents went to mosque. Every body got along and no fighting at all, living in peace, but then it got political and enemies were created deliberately in order to manipulate the land.

But yes, I do know can be evil. It can also be benign. It can also be beneficial. I know the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Muhammad swording throats of unbelievers, etc evil. I just see people who are really happy with their religion, including my grand parents and parents. I dont like to tell people they are damaged by their religion when I see they are not, you know what I mean?

[thoughtful]

While I agree with the general best-to-worst listings, I still find the idea problematic.

"Nobody's perfect" I can understand. Saying that we are only human and can't be 100% perfect all the time is fine.

At some level, though, free will has to play a role (no, I'm not a Calvinist). Sinning requires knowingly doing something wrong, and babies can't do that. The flip side is that if you say that everyone - even a baby - is a sinner, then sin ceases to have meaning. If everyone does it, it's sounds like no big deal, and then we lose the moral drive to change our actions and make things better.

Makes sense to me.

I was just commenting on how various people who believe we are all sinners have explained it to me. If they believe that, it's not my place to change their feelings. But I do think there are more or less benign ways that people can act on the belief.

I don't think of anything as "sin," per se -- more as innocent mistakes or purposeful wrongdoing. And, I agree that babies can't choose to purposefully do wrong.

[August]

Its more complicated than that. The problem for making violence its all political 100%. When my grand mother was a child, the Muslim neighbors baby sit her when her parents went to temple, and my grand mothers parents baby sit the Muslim children when their parents went to mosque. Every body got along and no fighting at all, living in peace, but then it got political and enemies were created deliberately in order to manipulate the land.

But yes, I do know can be evil. It can also be benign. It can also be beneficial. I know the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Muhammad swording throats of unbelievers, etc evil. I just see people who are really happy with their religion, including my grand parents and parents. I dont like to tell people they are damaged by their religion when I see they are not, you know what I mean?

But your parents can't eat bacon and eggs because of their religion, can they? Religion stunts people's moral judgement. Those are just two bad effects of religion.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Its more complicated than that. The problem for making violence its all political 100%. When my grand mother was a child, the Muslim neighbors baby sit her when her parents went to temple, and my grand mothers parents baby sit the Muslim children when their parents went to mosque. Every body got along and no fighting at all, living in peace, but then it got political and enemies were created deliberately in order to manipulate the land.

But yes, I do know can be evil. It can also be benign. It can also be beneficial. I know the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Muhammad swording throats of unbelievers, etc evil. I just see people who are really happy with their religion, including my grand parents and parents. I dont like to tell people they are damaged by their religion when I see they are not, you know what I mean?

It's not just Islam in Israel that is creating evil. What about your Religious Right? What about the haredim trying to shove their bullshit down everyone's throats all the time? And do you really like not being able to do anything on Saturday? And are you really going to claim that religious Zionism has nothing to do with the political situation?

ETA: I also agree that all forms of religion, at their core, are damaging to both individuals and society. Religion is fundamentally about accepting a nice (or not so nice) story about the world and the way it is ordered, rather than trying to find the facts and/or accepting that not everything has a straight black and white answer. In reality, faith is not a quality to be praised - it's just another word for not asking q's. The religiosity of Americans is, I believe, I huge factor in our social, economic, and diplomatic problems.

[Mama Mia]

But your parents can't eat bacon and eggs because of their religion, can they? Religion stunts people's moral judgement. Those are just two bad effects of religion.

Not eating bacon and eggs is stunting someone's moral judgement ?? Sounds more like the health advice given out every day to people. But because the source is religious it's somehow bad ? That makes no sense.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Not eating bacon and eggs is stunting someone's moral judgement ?? Sounds more like the health advice given out every day to people. But because the source is religious it's somehow bad ? That makes no sense.

It sounds like a small thing, but IMO Kosher laws are one of the best examples of believing nonsensical things. If your doctor tells you not to eat bacon because it's bad for your health, that's one thing - his advice is based on science and logic and knowing your medical history, etc. But when an ancient text tells you not to eat pigs, or mix milk and meat, or eat certain parts of the cow, for NO APPARENT REASON, but you're just supposed to trust God? THAT is what I object to, because the attitude extends to other things and that's dangerous. One Hassidic rabbi explained Kashrut law to my anthropology of religion course by saying, "God only tells us what we need to know, and sometimes even less than that." No big deal when it comes to food...but a HUGE deal, and a total stunting of moral judgement, when applied to bigger issues.

A friend of mine tried to explain Kashrut by saying that God made these arbitrary dietary laws because he wanted the Hebrews to keep themselves separate from everyone else. Another BAD reason, I say.

[treehugger]

It sounds like a small thing, but IMO Kosher laws are one of the best examples of believing nonsensical things. If your doctor tells you not to eat bacon because it's bad for your health, that's one thing - his advice is based on science and logic and knowing your medical history, etc. But when an ancient text tells you not to eat pigs, or mix milk and meat, or eat certain parts of the cow, for NO APPARENT REASON, but you're just supposed to trust God? THAT is what I object to, because the attitude extends to other things and that's dangerous. One Hassidic rabbi explained Kashrut law to my anthropology of religion course by saying, "God only tells us what we need to know, and sometimes even less than that." No big deal when it comes to food...but a HUGE deal, and a total stunting of moral judgement, when applied to bigger issues.

A friend of mine tried to explain Kashrut by saying that God made these arbitrary dietary laws because he wanted the Hebrews to keep themselves separate from everyone else. Another BAD reason, I say.

So, just because someone believes in a religion and tries to adhere to it's rules in their own personal life - suddenly everyone is an extreme fanatic who is trying to push their way of life onto the world? Not buying it. I know there are extreme fanatics who do this - and I find that morally reprehensible, but I know religious people who try to follow their beliefs as best they can in their own lives while acknowledging that everyone has the choice to do what they would like in their spiritual and religious life. I guess I just don't get where this hatred of kosher laws is coming from. By following kosher themselves, who are they hurting? Also, just because she lives in Tel Aviv you assume her parents are Jewish?

Also, this is off topic, but there are considerable health benefits to following Kosher - and no, I am not Jewish.

[Sobeknofret]

So, just because someone believes in a religion and tries to adhere to it's rules in their own personal life - suddenly everyone is an extreme fanatic who is trying to push their way of life onto the world? Not buying it. I know there are extreme fanatics who do this - and I find that morally reprehensible, but I know religious people who try to follow their beliefs as best they can in their own lives while acknowledging that everyone has the choice to do what they would like in their spiritual and religious life. I guess I just don't get where this hatred of kosher laws is coming from. By following kosher themselves, who are they hurting? Also, just because she lives in Tel Aviv you assume her parents are Jewish?

Also, this is off topic, but there are considerable health benefits to following Kosher - and no, I am not Jewish.

Thank you. There are several on this board who are religious and try to live out their beliefs quietly and with dignity, and refrain from making judgements. Have a cute mousie and a penguin: :mouse-shock: :wink-penguin:

[debrand]

Thank you. There are several on this board who are religious and try to live out their beliefs quietly and with dignity, and refrain from making judgements. Have a cute mousie and a penguin: :mouse-shock: :wink-penguin:

Any one who reads some of my comments knows I am no longer religious but I agree with Treehugger.

Life is tough and sometimes the unfairness is random. I've met too many religious people that use their faith just to get through very horrible experiences to be judgemental toward them. If someone's child dies and they want to feel better by imagining that they will see that child again, why would I be cruel and kick away that hope?

Yes, religion does a lot of harm and that should be acknowledged but it also offers some people hope when they need it.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

What I was TRYING to say is that when a society make a virtue out of taking things on faith, it has terrible repercussions. No, keeping kosher doesn't make you a bigot. It's the thought process behind keeping kosher, for example, as a societal presence, that leads to danger. It says "accept this because this holy book said so", not because it is good or right or just.

ETA: I did not assume that oil is Jewish, she has mentioned that she was in other threads.

[Maggie Mae]

Saying that all religion is harmful is the same black-and-white thinking that we snark on here.

Extremism is harmful. If you were stranded on an island, and your food supplies were running out, and you could either hunt for one of the pigs that roam the island, or eat the easily obtainable shellfish, but you instead choose to not eat until you find something that is kosher, then it could be considered harmful. But keeping kosher in itself is not a harmful behavior.

Religion can help some people through grief, or through tough times.

I personally think that the more black-and-white one is in their life, the more likely they are to follow a religion that is extreme.

[2xx1xy1JD]

You lost me on the not eating bacon = stunting moral judgment point.

Judaism itself is pretty clear about the fact that there are a class of commandments which don't seem rational, for which no reason is given. People may speculate, but the kosher laws are NOT about health.

It is equally clear that there are other commandments, particularly those governing the relationships between ourselves and others, which can be understood via human reason. Laws on speech fall into this category - there are entire books devoted to discussing why gossip is a bad thing, the conditions under which it may be permitted, ways to avoid causing discord between people through words, etc. You can't read through this stuff and NOT engage in moral reasoning.

As well, not all religions are about focusing on specific belief. Some parts of Christianity place belief front and center, saying that belief makes the difference between heaven and hell. Other religions may focus far less on specific beliefs. Instead, there may be a focus on social action, or on attaining states of inner peace.

[oil]

But your parents can't eat bacon and eggs because of their religion, can they? Religion stunts people's moral judgement. Those are just two bad effects of religion.

Youre right they cant eat that. From their perspective, though, they would laugh at me if I said to them it stunts their moral judgement. We may see it as such, but that doesnt make it true. The truth can only come from how they perceive and experience their religion, not how we perceive it for them.