Sometimes A Two Year Old Is Just A Two Year Old

[France Nolan]

I'm a Lutheran. Like Calvinists Lutherans believe in predestination (salvation is God's will alone, we cannot do anything to "get saved"), however unlike Calvinists we do not believe in predestination for hell. Good works are the fruit of our faith, not efforts to earn salvation. At the same time, faith does not cause salvation. Salvation is a gift from God and faith allows us to receive that gift.

I grew up in a theologically liberal home/church. My parents taught me that no religion is more right or valid than any other religion. For all we know Judaism could be the "right" religion or Islam or Hinduism.

[August]

Youre right they cant eat that. From their perspective, though, they would laugh at me if I said to them it stunts their moral judgement. We may see it as such, but that doesnt make it true. The truth can only come from how they perceive and experience their religion, not how we perceive it for them.

No, because the religion becomes the definer of what is right or not right. That is the business of religion, to tell you this is good, this is bad. They would probably override religion for something like abuse or murder, but I'll bet there are many things a day where the religion rules, not the logic.

[dawbs]

No, because the religion becomes the definer of what is right or not right. That is the business of religion, to tell you this is good, this is bad. They would probably override religion for something like abuse or murder, but I'll bet there are many things a day where the religion rules, not the logic.

Isn't that true for everybody? We all have default/brain off settings.

Heck, I take the second stall in a public bathroom because of a 'game/system' my sisters and I invented when we were stuck using only public restrooms for months at a time--it's not that it's "bad" for me to use another one, it's just easy to have a default direction to head.

There have been studies that show that 'the one in the middle' is what our brains default to because it's generally 'easy'.

If I"m caught off guard in a restaurant when they ask "type of salad" I say Ceasar--not because the 'garden' salad is evil (although really, tomatoes are slimy blobs of malignant ick--and they don't come on ceasar salads), but because it's a nice, reasonable, low maintenance/low effort answer.

[yewchapel]

What religion are you?

I am a very liberal Christian, part of the Anglican/Episcopalian denomination.

[2xx1xy1JD]

No, because the religion becomes the definer of what is right or not right. That is the business of religion, to tell you this is good, this is bad. They would probably override religion for something like abuse or murder, but I'll bet there are many things a day where the religion rules, not the logic.

Have you studied every single movement, within every single religion, in order to come up with a blanket statement that it's all bad?

There is a HUGE variation in this idea of religion defining what is right and wrong. At one extreme, yes, some groups within some religions can be constricting and override one's own moral judgment. For others, religion may simply focus on certain fundamental ethical concepts (like the Golden Rule), and serve as a springboard for deep discussion and encouragement for social action.

Sometimes, people who have experienced fundie religion can picture religion as a box, and understand on a theoretical level that different boxes will contain different beliefs. What's harder to understand is that in many cases, the whole concept of having a box is different. Does this argument even make any sense in the context of Zen Buddhism or Reconstructionist Judaism, for example?

[oil]

No, because the religion becomes the definer of what is right or not right. That is the business of religion, to tell you this is good, this is bad. They would probably override religion for something like abuse or murder, but I'll bet there are many things a day where the religion rules, not the logic.

Religion isnt harmful if believer doesnt feel harmed. Youre right the religion rules in many things, but there are religious people who like the rules of their specific religion.

For example, my grand parents are religious. The rule is to go to temple Friday night. They go and say "thank G-d for shabbos, it make us remember to put every thing down and rest." Of course they dont need a religion rule to remind them, but they experience that rule to be benefit to them.

If a rule makes you live in fear to hell, or make you have to live in the countryside (like Jinger want to move to city but cant and shes frustrated) etc, then yes its harmful. This isnt the way it is for many who experience their religion in a positive way.

[Arete]

That's the point. There are millions of people who experience their religion as a good and meaningful thing in their lives, and who also do not try and tell other people how to live. This site talks about abuses, and sometimes we can lose sight of the fact that this is not the only valid experience.

As to this belief that if we eliminate religion tomorrow people would be better, more ethical, and think for themselves, I'm not sold. A cursory look at Soviet Russia or Mao's China shows that human beings are still capable of both great and small atrocities with no religious convictions fueling them.

Not eating bacon no more stunts an observant Jew's moral judgment than not eating meat during Lent stunt's mine. Some things are observed because it marks out time or place as special, or because you believe this is what God asks of you. Not because bacon is illegitimate food or because if you eat meat during Lent you are not as good a person. Not because you have handed control of your moral judgments to a religious authority. Are there people who hand control of their moral judgments to religious authorities? Yes, there are, and that is what we snark them for. It doesn't follow that ALL people who practice a religious tradition are moral zombies.

[yewchapel]

Added to that is the fact that there are levels of observance. A religious Jew who is less observant about kosher (for example) is still religious. Religious people override their religion's rules because of their own moral judgements all the time, and for far smaller things than murder or abuse. Many deeply religious Catholics, for instance, knowingly flout the rules on contraception. No two religious people interpret their faith in the same way.

Not all religions have a centralised moral code anyway - paganism doesn't, for instance.

[Full enough quiver]

My general rule of thumb is that if something doesn't hurt anyone, and you don't try to shove it down anyone else's throat, it's probably ok. Keeping kosher or praying before meals, meh. Who cares? I dont care if you feel the need to twirl 3 times before you eat, it's no skin off my nose. WBC persecuting gays, or assholes protesting at abortion clinics, definitely not ok. As far as the 2 year old, if all he had done was take the boy to a quiet room and hold him and talk quietly about his behavior, that's probably ok. Hell, I did it yesterday with the 12 year old. She was overstimulated, and acted out by shoving her cousin. I talked quietly to her about self control, and appropriate behavior. The conversation ended with her in tears, repentant, ready to apologize to her cousin. I've been known to do that with my girls when they were small, and it's a good way to help them decompress. It's like a "modified time out". Even if they don't understand everything, they can be truly repentant. The problem I see is that the holding and backrubbing probably followed an unsuccessful beating. Not cool.

[lizziesmom]

That's the point. There are millions of people who experience their religion as a good and meaningful thing in their lives, and who also do not try and tell other people how to live. This site talks about abuses, and sometimes we can lose sight of the fact that this is not the only valid experience.

As to this belief that if we eliminate religion tomorrow people would be better, more ethical, and think for themselves, I'm not sold. A cursory look at Soviet Russia or Mao's China shows that human beings are still capable of both great and small atrocities with no religious convictions fueling them.

Not eating bacon no more stunts an observant Jew's moral judgment than not eating meat during Lent stunt's mine. Some things are observed because it marks out time or place as special, or because you believe this is what God asks of you. Not because bacon is illegitimate food or because if you eat meat during Lent you are not as good a person. Not because you have handed control of your moral judgments to a religious authority. Are there people who hand control of their moral judgments to religious authorities? Yes, there are, and that is what we snark them for. It doesn't follow that ALL people who practice a religious tradition are moral zombies.

Fair enough point but you don't just have to look at Soviet Russia or Mao's China to show that human beings are capable of both great and small atrocities without religion -- there is plenty of small and great atrocities being committed by human beings in the name of religion and this has gone on for centuries. Seems to me that if everyone would just follow the Golden Rule (not those who have the gold make the rules) but the "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You", human beings and mankind would be fine.

[Mama Mia]

What I was TRYING to say is that when a society make a virtue out of taking things on faith, it has terrible repercussions. No, keeping kosher doesn't make you a bigot. It's the thought process behind keeping kosher, for example, as a societal presence, that leads to danger. It says "accept this because this holy book said so", not because it is good or right or just.

ETA: I did not assume that oil is Jewish, she has mentioned that she was in other threads.

How is that ANY different than taking the word of your Doctor on what to eat or what medications to take ? Medication interactions and prescription overdoses ( generally accidental) are one of the leading causes of death. Does that mean all medicine is bad ? Science brought us GMO's and industrial pollutants and bpa's that cause disability -- does that make all science bad ?

Of course not.

[debrand]

My general rule of thumb is that if something doesn't hurt anyone, and you don't try to shove it down anyone else's throat, it's probably ok. Keeping kosher or praying before meals, meh. Who cares? I dont care if you feel the need to twirl 3 times before you eat, it's no skin off my nose. WBC persecuting gays, or assholes protesting at abortion clinics, definitely not ok. As far as the 2 year old, if all he had done was take the boy to a quiet room and hold him and talk quietly about his behavior, that's probably ok. Hell, I did it yesterday with the 12 year old. She was overstimulated, and acted out by shoving her cousin. I talked quietly to her about self control, and appropriate behavior. The conversation ended with her in tears, repentant, ready to apologize to her cousin. I've been known to do that with my girls when they were small, and it's a good way to help them decompress. It's like a "modified time out". Even if they don't understand everything, they can be truly repentant. The problem I see is that the holding and backrubbing probably followed an unsuccessful beating. Not cool.

I understand what you are saying and agree but remember Mark also did this:

I then started repenting of Zac’s sins for him, naming each of them he had committed that day in great detail.

Even if he didn't spank the toddler(I am pretty certain that he did), it is pretty cruel to go over each 'sin' in great detail to a two year old. What does, 'in great detail' even mean?

[ems]

If we are on the subject of harm, I think it can be "harmful" to put reason on too high a pedestal. Other posters have already pointed out that there are many things that human beings do that aren't exactly rational, but cause no harm. It's not just religious practices. I can't think of examples off the top of my head, but many cultural practices that aren't religious in nature have deep meaning for people even if they are not based in reason. And even things like Kosher law may be followed by many kosher-keeping Jews not because they truly believe it is sinful to consume pork but because they have cultural significance to people. I fail to see the harm in that.

As a corollary, I think the posts of many religious free-jingerites have already demonstrated that many religious people do think through our faith rather than accepting bible/church teachings blindly. My church, for one (Episcopalian) doesn't ask me to check my brain at the door.

Religion and faith =/= fundamentalism.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Religion stunts people's moral judgement.

This is a silly statement. Professed non-believers are responsible for far more--like, jaw-droppingly more--deaths than the religiously-minded. Now I don't want to enrage the atheists on the board by suggesting that they're more likely than your average Christian walking down the street to whip out a gun and pick someone off, but seriously. Crack open a history book.

[Full enough quiver]

I don't think religious people are any more or less capable of committing atrocities than anyone else. They are, however, more likely to justify their actions using religion. ie, "it's ok that I killed the abortion doctor, I'm doing god's work"

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't think religious people are any more or less capable of committing atrocities than anyone else. They are, however, more likely to justify their actions using religion. ie, "it's ok that I killed the abortion doctor, I'm doing god's work"

Sure, but others have justified atrocities according to their own values:

"It's ok that I killed that counter-revolutionary, he was a class enemy."

"It's ok that I killed that Tutsi, he was just like a cockroach."

[Full enough quiver]

True. I suppose anyone will find a way to justify their actions. I know I do. For once, it would be nice if people would be honest about their motivations. Like "I beat my kid because I'm a sadistic asshole" or " I don't want marriage equality because I think being gay is icky". "my wife's not pregnant, and I'm gay as Liberachi's hatband." it would be like the movie The Invention of Lying :)