Sometimes A Two Year Old Is Just A Two Year Old

[debrand]

marshill.com/2013/05/03/how-a-dad-can-model-repentance

I’ll give you an example from when my son, Zac, was two. He is a wonderful son, I enjoy him immensely, we are very close, but one day he was not obeying. He was being disrespectful, tormenting his sister, and overwhelming his mother. When I walked in the door from work, my wife and daughter looked as if they had just run a marathon. When
 I disciplined Zac, it just increased his anger and defiance. His attitude grew meaner until he tried to punch me, a move Proverbs refers to as folly that is bound up in the heart of a child. Ephesians 6:4 came to mind, and I felt that I was exasperating my son. As I prayed, God brought Job 1:5 to mind, and so I picked up my son, who was thrashing his body wildly, and carried him upstairs so we could be alone.

I lay down on my bed with my son on my chest and held him as I began to pray for him. The first thing I prayed for was that the Holy Spirit would come and convict Zac of his sins. I then prayed that Jesus would take the anger out of his heart and give him a new heart of love and obedience. I then started repenting of Zac’s sins for him, naming each of them he had committed that day in great detail. As I held him, I rubbed his back, which calmed him down, and I asked God to forgive him for his sins and give me wisdom to be a good father.

My son broke in a way I had never seen. His crying was so deep that he heaved on my chest for over 10 minutes, covering me in his tears, and having difficulty breathing through his crying. He was repentant, and he was broken. Eventually, he lifted his head to look me in the eye and said, “Daddy, I’m sorry.â€

Two year olds can be a handful, I admit. Maybe I was just a super fantastic mother but I never needed my husband to discipline my kids when he returned home. There were times when I needed and asked for a break. My husband didn't have to do a run down if our toddlers about what they had done wrong throughout the day

The child was two. He probably didn't remember what he had done earlier in the day. I don't understand the fundie obsession with breaking their children.

[thoughtful]

He seems to take such pleasure in defeating a 2-year-old. :(

Assuming the "discipline" Dad administered involved spanking or some other kind of pain, the kid was just doing what he had been taught, when he tried to punch his father -- hitting someone when you don't like their behavior.

Getting him alone and holding and stroking him until he calmed down might have been fine, without the "discipline" beforehand, and the litany of shame. Distressing a 2-year-old like that is disgusting.

Here's Job 1:5 (KJV, of course!), which he says God put in his mind:

5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Maybe God wanted you to leave the child alone and go barbecue something, shmuck.

[August]

When he says convict, dies he mean convince, or does he want his imaginary friend to come and pass judgement on his baby?

[debrand]

He seems to take such pleasure in defeating a 2-year-old. :(

Assuming the "discipline" Dad administered involved spanking or some other kind of pain, the kid was just doing what he had been taught, when he tried to punch his father -- hitting someone when you don't like their behavior.

Getting him alone and holding and stroking him until he calmed down might have been fine, without the "discipline" beforehand, and the litany of shame. Distressing a 2-year-old like that is disgusting.

Here's Job 1:5 (KJV, of course!), which he says God put in his mind:

Maybe God wanted you to leave the child alone and go barbecue something, shmuck.

Surely he doesn't believe that two year olds sin by acting their age. :shock: Job's sons were adults not toddlers. Hopefully, Mark understands that his son isn't capable of cursing god in his heart. The little boy is only two

[Mela99]

Two year old can't read, write, or keep from shitting their pants.

But intentionally and maliciously committing sin is another matter.

I'd also like to know what the hell these sins were... coloring outside the lines? Whining for another cookie? Having a tantrum? Kids that young act out BECAUSE they can't articulate how they feel or make themselves understood or understand what is happening.

[RachelB]

Surely he doesn't believe that two year olds sin by acting their age. :shock: Job's sons were adults not toddlers. Hopefully, Mark understands that his son isn't capable of cursing god in his heart. The little boy is only two

I think Mark Driscoll is of the hyper-Calvinist, "people are evil at birth" school. So I do interpret what he's saying as treating normal developmental orneriness (and, bloody hell, the frustrations of being unable to communicate with nuance!) as a sign of his child's depravity.

[Burris]

This is a step up, people! He didn't beat his son - or at least he didn't beat the boy to death, as is sometimes the case with other fundies.

[France Nolan]

Look. My two year old can be a pain in the ass. Really, she can. She's broken more things than I care to count, has tantrums, makes messes... but she's TWO. She's not doing this because she's sinning. She's doing this because she's a toddler. My job is to guide her, work with her, and teach her how to deal with her emotions, how to do things, and you know, how to be a productive citizen someday.

That's not to say I don't get angry in the moment. When she knocked my latop off the table I saw red but you know what? Instead of hitting or prayer over her I put her in her room with some quiet toys so I could calm down.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Sooooo hes angry cause he hit his toddler and the kid hit back? Hes just modelling what his parents do. He has learned that if someone makes you mad, hit them.

Toddlers arent evil, theyre young and dont know better.

[Arete]

He enumerated his two year old's "sins" in prayer. :shock: WTF? Seriously, WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!!! They shouldn't have dominion over a potted plant, much less another human being.

[thoughtful]

Surely he doesn't believe that two year olds sin by acting their age. :shock: Job's sons were adults not toddlers. Hopefully, Mark understands that his son isn't capable of cursing god in his heart. The little boy is only two

Debrand, he may be like the Pearls (and I know you know a lot about them). It certainly sounds like he is in that same camp, believing that toddlers and even infants are purposely willful and rebellious.

Burris, I don't think he got to the holding and calming until after some sort of pain-based crap. Notice this part of the post:

When
 I disciplined Zac, it just increased his anger and defiance.

Considering the source and the attitude, I'm pretty sure that means he was hitting him in some fashion. I'd be very happy to be wrong.

But even if that wasn't there, and what he did physically was only to hold his son, the shaming, and his triumph -- not that his son calmed down and cheered up, but was "broken" and wracked with sobs for ten minutes -- :shock: would be pretty sick.

[oil]

My son broke in a way I had never seen. His crying was so deep that he heaved on my chest for over 10 minutes, covering me in his tears, and having difficulty breathing through his crying. He was repentant, and he was broken. Eventually, he lifted his head to look me in the eye and said, “Daddy, I’m sorry.â€

This make me cry. Im sad for this baby. Two year old understanding what sorry is and being repentant? I thought thats still young for that understanding.

[Burris]

Burris, I don't think he got to the holding and calming until after some sort of pain-based crap. Notice this part of the post:

Considering the source and the attitude, I'm pretty sure that means he was hitting him in some fashion. I'd be very happy to be wrong.

But even if that wasn't there, and what he did physically was only to hold his son, the shaming, and his triumph -- not that his son calmed down and cheered up, but was "broken" and wracked with sobs for ten minutes -- :shock: would be pretty sick.

I know it's damned unlikely, but the father could have meant a time-out or even an open-handed slap across the backside (which I don't see as being on the same level as beating with an instrument).

At any rate, I was being more than a little facetious in my initial post: I think the father’s punishment for his son – the shaming in particular - was nothing else than a self-serving power trip.

[mlady]

I wish all these stories came with the warning "exaggerated for dramatic effect" because they all scream it loud and clear which makes everything else these folks may ever say suspect.

In fact, every testimony should.

[snarkyjan]

He enumerated his two year old's "sins" in prayer. :shock: WTF? Seriously, WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!!! They shouldn't have dominion over a potted plant, much less another human being.

Forget the potted plant, I wouldn't entrust them with a pet rock.

[August]

This is a step up, people! He didn't beat his son - or at least he didn't beat the boy to death, as is sometimes the case with other fundies.

Was it you who was trying to convince me that in contexts like this "discipline" doesn't mean "beat"? Because I'm not even vaguely convinced

[MyName]

Calvinists all believe man is sinful from birth (some aren't ballsy enough to say it that way, but it is one of the five "TULIP" points of Calvinism... the T= "Total Depravity")

Someone should really send these people to a child development class. :pull-hair:

[Burris]

Was it you who was trying to convince me that in contexts like this "discipline" doesn't mean "beat"? Because I'm not even vaguely convinced

*snerk* Oh God no! In those fundie posts, the term "discipline" is often code for "beat" - a practice I categorically oppose as not only dangerous but ultimately futile. As I said, there was more than a little sarcasm in my initial response here.

I don't think all fundies beat their kids, however; that site for Gentle Christian Mothers comes to mind.

[HoneyBunny]

The reality of the situation is that the poor boy was probably tired, or not feeling well, which caused the misbehavior to start with. He couldn't have cared less that his dad was praying for him...it was just that his dad was sitting down with him and rubbing his back that he found soothing and calming. He dad could have been reading the paper in a calm, quiet voice, and rubbing his son's back, and the end result would likely have been the same.

You know, it really is possible to do the right thing without invoking God to intervene.

[August]

*snerk* Oh God no! In those fundie posts, the term "discipline" is often code for "beat" - a practice I categorically oppose as not only dangerous but ultimately futile. As I said, there was more than a little sarcasm in my initial response here.

I don't think all fundies beat their kids, however; that site for Gentle Christian Mothers comes to mind.

Phew. I've read the public part of GCM and I get the impression anyone posting there would feel it was their duty to share non-violent discipline techniques.

[thoughtful]

At any rate, I was being more than a little facetious in my initial post: I think the father’s punishment for his son – the shaming in particular - was nothing else than a self-serving power trip.

Ah, I see. I agree.

[yewchapel]

I believe that everyone is born with the potential to sin, rather than actively sinning from birth. A newborn can't sin because it doesn't have the mental capacity. Ditto for a two year old. Ditto for a mentally incapable adult. An older child (like an 8yo)? Maybe - something like animal cruelty would certainly be a sin and possible at that age. But all the sinning in the world couldn't make me hit my own child. It's wrong to hit anyone, regardless of age, nevermind sinning. Would that person hit their spouse or an adult friend who sinned (or for fundies more likely 'sinned').

[debrand]

Do Calvinists not believe in the age of culpability? (I Might have used the wrong term) I know some denominations believe that children can't sin until they reach a certain intellectual maturity.

[Lillybee]

Do Calvinists not believe in the age of culpability? (I Might have used the wrong term) I know some denominations believe that children can't sin until they reach a certain intellectual maturity.

Catholics refer to this as the Age of Reason. It is usually seven.

[Coconut Flan]

Yeah, it's that horrid Catholic concept of age of reason. You can't be culpable until you can actually begin to understand some things are right or wrong.