Duggars, Boys and Romance Novels

[alchemy]

I see a career in the making for some enterprising FJer. Romance novels for fundie-land.

Tense meetings with Daddy's asking for permission. courtships, dates with purpose, hand-sex!

[Knight of Ni]

There's even more than that to make their heads spin:

Although Jondalar and Ayla met in book 2, they didn't actually marry until book 5. They spent 3 whole books living in sin (woot!).

Every other tribe they encountered, except for Neanderthals, worshipped a female deity.

The tribe they lived with in book 3 was led by brother/sister co-chieftains.

Also in book 3, there was a love triangle between Ayla, Jondalar and Ranec, the young black artist/sculptor (Ayla would have been better off with Ranec IMO, he had a lot more moxie than Jondalar).

In book 4, they encountered a tribe led by a FEMALE chieftain.

In book 5 the supreme religious leader of Jondalar's tribe was female.

Sounds like a very interesting series. I'll definitely have to check them out soon.

[snarkyjan]

Sounds like a very interesting series. I'll definitely have to check them out soon.

Thanks but be warned: Don't spend money on book 6 as it was an utter waste of perfectly good trees. I read all the (deservedly) negative reviews of this tome, then borrowed it from the library. I thought books 2 and 3 were the best of the series.

[snarkyjan]

I've been sick of Jill for awhile. She is kind of the female version of Josh. I think Jinger and Jessa are still to be like her.

I'm sick of Jill too but to me, the Duggar she most resembles is Boob himself.

[nolongerIFBx]

Welcome to my soapbox. You might want to pack a lunch. :D

Hey, Michelle Duggar, I'm your worst nightmare: A former fundie that writes romance novels, and NOT the "inspirational" kind.

Here's the difference between romance novels and pornography: Romance novels tell the story of the birth and growth of a relationship between two people. Sexuality is part of a normal relationship between consenting adults. (Michelle might have to read that one twice. After all, she persists in believing that sex is for procreation only, and only after those adults are married.) The physical involvement of the characters in a romance novel happens as a result of falling in love. As their relationship grows, they face challenges, but overcome those challenges and choose to stay together. Women (and a lot of men) read romance novels because they enjoy the feeling of falling in love, over and over and over again. They like an entertaining, engrossing story that takes them away from their everyday lives for a few hours.

Porn has no emotional element.

It's interesting to me to hear women say that the relationships explored in a romance novel are "unrealistic". Really? Why shouldn't any woman expect to have a happy, mutually supportive and loving relationship? Why shouldn't any woman expect to be sexually satisfied by her mate? The romance novels written in the 60's and 70's reflect society at that time - women were still controlled by men, etcetera. Today's romance novels are written by women who believe they deserve to chase their dreams and have a great relationship, too. Romance novelists are college professors (Eloisa James, Jennifer Crusie,) Ivy League grads (Julia Quinn, Sarah Maclean,) lawyers (too many to name, but try Courtney Milan and Julie James first,) and stay-at-home moms (Debbie Macomber, who is probably worth over $100 million at this point). We come from all walks of life. The biggest thing we have in common is that we love to write books our readers will love.

I think the reason why romance novels are so scorned by people like Gothard and Michelle Duggar is that they show women there's more to life than cooking, cleaning and eternal pregnancy. There's more to a sexual relationship than half-hearted foreplay and 30 seconds in the dark. Perhaps I should mention that it's also fairly lucrative to write a great romance novel. Nora Roberts' fortune has to be in excess of $150 million, for example. There are many other women making over six figures a year. One can make her own decisions in life with that kind of income.

I'd bet the deed to our house that Michelle Duggar has not read a romance novel written after 1980, if she's ever read one at all. Furthermore, why should she want to be reminded how devoid of humor and emotion her own relationship is?

Hops off soapbox, gets back to work...

Can you give me your pen name? You don't have to say whether it is your real name! I'm not trying to stalk you, just love a good romance-- especially the kind with "porn" in it.

[Trynn]

I see a career in the making for some enterprising FJer. Romance novels for fundie-land.

Tense meetings with Daddy's asking for permission. courtships, dates with purpose, hand-sex!

I could write one of those and post it on FJ later...right now I need a nap.

[Chibi Author]

I see a career in the making for some enterprising FJer. Romance novels for fundie-land.

Tense meetings with Daddy's asking for permission. courtships, dates with purpose, hand-sex!

I would write the hell out of that.

Of course, I think most of the other writerly Free Jingerites would, as well. There should be a contest, or something. ;)

[lizziesmom]

Sick of self righteous, ignorant Jill. She put the whole kabash on Jinger's big city dreams. Amazing how Jill can be a midwife, yet completely live in denial about the desires and passions that get a woman pregnant in the first place. Or, is she only taking care of pregnant women who are married?

I would bet you that the only pregnant women Jill can take care of are married fundies.

[Salamander]

I wonder if Michelle's ever heard the word erotica, which is somewhat more appropriate to describe romance novels. I guess if she used that term instead, it'd ruin her romance novels = porn comparison, which is a mostly false equivalency seeing that porn exists in visual form for women as well as men to consume.

Though if she started saying erotica, it'd probably confuse Jim Bob and the kids to hear foreign-speak come out of her mouth. :roll:

[Rainytown]

I wonder if Michelle's ever heard the word erotica, which is somewhat more appropriate to describe romance novels.

Erotica is a different sub-genre category than romance. There is erotic romance, in which the entire plot centers around the characters' sex lives. Erotic romance also features a happily ever after or a happily for now (emotionally satisfying) ending. Erotica is about sex and sexuality, period.

Michelle likens romance novels to porn because she heard a man tell her that. She also thinks making the comparison is SHOCKING, and will scare those sinful women right out of the bookstore.

[Peppercorn]

Michelle likens romance novels to porn because she heard a man tell her that. She also thinks making the comparison is SHOCKING, and will scare those sinful women right out of the bookstore.

And also because she can't conceive that the real porn for women is...porn.

P.S. I hear that 'romance is housewife porn' canard all the time and my response is always: So then you haven't read any real porn, huh?

[Miggy]

Erotica is a different sub-genre category than romance. There is erotic romance, in which the entire plot centers around the characters' sex lives. Erotic romance also features a happily ever after or a happily for now (emotionally satisfying) ending. Erotica is about sex and sexuality, period.

Michelle likens romance novels to porn because she heard a man tell her that. She also thinks making the comparison is SHOCKING, and will scare those sinful women right out of the bookstore.

In Michelle's defence, she married at 17 and starting shutting herself off from the world shortly afterwards. How many out there can claim they really understood the difference between romance, erotica and porn at 17? I know I didn't. I read teen romance, I knew there was an erotica section in the video shop and porn was the magazines the boys stole from their fathers and brought to school. If my education stopped where Michelle's did, I would probably be saying the same things about romance novels being porn for women.

The difference between Michelle and me is that I didn't stop growing at 17. I continued to learn and experience. I learnt that romance novels get boring after a while and I would rather read sci-fi. I learnt that I love erotic movies but not books. I learnt that I'm not really into porn. I don't mind Michelle objecting on religious grounds but it is sad that she doesn't know what she is talking about and sad that she is passing that ignorance on to her daughters and to all the others in fundyland who listen to her.

[eohiken]

Thanks but be warned: Don't spend money on book 6 as it was an utter waste of perfectly good trees. I read all the (deservedly) negative reviews of this tome, then borrowed it from the library. I thought books 2 and 3 were the best of the series.

OMFG don't read the 6th book! It made me cry and rage over what had been done to my beloved characters. Jean Auel ought to be ashamed of herself.

[FloraKitty35]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Poor girls :( Theyve never been allowed to have any experiences with dating and relationships, and maybe they never will :(

I also feel bad that theyve been taught that their natural urges are bad and wrong.

My advice for fundie girls:

There is nothing wrong with reading romance novels, books about sex, fanfiction about sex, anything like that.

There is nothing wrong with watching porn.

The majority of people in the world have sexual urges which are completely natural and its not wrong to have them.

There is nothing wrong with masturbating

Dating isnt wrong, its how your parents met, and theyre still together after all these years and all these children.

Your dad does not own your body, your body belongs to you, and always will, even after you get married or are in a relationship.

Its up to you to choose who you want to get married to, cause youre the one who is going to have to live with them.

If you want to be in a relationship with someone, you do not have to be submissive to them. If the man (or woman, thats fine too) you are with bosses you around and expects you to be submissive to them and do whatever they say, you should break up. Relationships are a partnership.

Nobody knows whether you are a virgin or not. It doesnt make you dirty to lose your virginity, and dont listen to what your parents tell you about virginity, most people arent too bothered if their partner isnt a virgin.

Nothing wrong with using protection when you have sex, if you do not want a baby with someone. Having 20 kids isnt for everyone, and its nothing to be ashamed of if you dont feel youre cut out for large family motherhood.

[FloraKitty35]

Welcome to my soapbox. You might want to pack a lunch. :D

Hey, Michelle Duggar, I'm your worst nightmare: A former fundie that writes romance novels, and NOT the "inspirational" kind.

Here's the difference between romance novels and pornography: Romance novels tell the story of the birth and growth of a relationship between two people. Sexuality is part of a normal relationship between consenting adults. (Michelle might have to read that one twice. After all, she persists in believing that sex is for procreation only, and only after those adults are married.) The physical involvement of the characters in a romance novel happens as a result of falling in love. As their relationship grows, they face challenges, but overcome those challenges and choose to stay together. Women (and a lot of men) read romance novels because they enjoy the feeling of falling in love, over and over and over again. They like an entertaining, engrossing story that takes them away from their everyday lives for a few hours.

Porn has no emotional element.

It's interesting to me to hear women say that the relationships explored in a romance novel are "unrealistic". Really? Why shouldn't any woman expect to have a happy, mutually supportive and loving relationship? Why shouldn't any woman expect to be sexually satisfied by her mate? The romance novels written in the 60's and 70's reflect society at that time - women were still controlled by men, etcetera. Today's romance novels are written by women who believe they deserve to chase their dreams and have a great relationship, too. Romance novelists are college professors (Eloisa James, Jennifer Crusie,) Ivy League grads (Julia Quinn, Sarah Maclean,) lawyers (too many to name, but try Courtney Milan and Julie James first,) and stay-at-home moms (Debbie Macomber, who is probably worth over $100 million at this point). We come from all walks of life. The biggest thing we have in common is that we love to write books our readers will love.

I think the reason why romance novels are so scorned by people like Gothard and Michelle Duggar is that they show women there's more to life than cooking, cleaning and eternal pregnancy. There's more to a sexual relationship than half-hearted foreplay and 30 seconds in the dark. Perhaps I should mention that it's also fairly lucrative to write a great romance novel. Nora Roberts' fortune has to be in excess of $150 million, for example. There are many other women making over six figures a year. One can make her own decisions in life with that kind of income.

I'd bet the deed to our house that Michelle Duggar has not read a romance novel written after 1980, if she's ever read one at all. Furthermore, why should she want to be reminded how devoid of humor and emotion her own relationship is?

Hops off soapbox, gets back to work...

We can't show women that there's more to life than slavery and shitty sex with some Neanderthal like Dim Bulb or Smuggar or some closet case like David Waller.

[Syd+Marky]

OMFG don't read the 6th book! It made me cry and rage over what had been done to my beloved characters. Jean Auel ought to be ashamed of herself.

I agree.I was soo excited to come across the 6th book.The first 5 I lived so much, and read them each many times.I was very disappointed in #6-the series would have been better left alone as a set of 5.

The Duggar girls may easily come across them.From the outside appearance and inside-flap-descriptions, I can see how they would look informative and educational(which they are), and I can't see Michelle reading every book the girls want to read before they do.It would do the girls some good if those books made it past inspection.

Of course, Jill would probably tattle when she came across it.

[patsymae]

Actually, there are also plenty of romance novels that not only aren't erotic, but that don't allow any sexual contact at all, as for example, drinking of alcohol (unless the drinker is a villain), cursing, and so on. Very chaste romances--most publishing houses have at least one brand for this, plus there are about a million romance ebooks along those lines, including "Christian" and "Amish" romances. They are ridiculously unrealistic, very much along the lines of what the Duggars consider a proper courtship to be. So I don't think it's the content, I think it's that a) as someone said, J'Chelle probably hasn't read one since the 1970s, 2) not having access to books, libraries, or other people, the Duggar girls have no idea what romance novels are out there, and 3) reading anything would take time away from running the house and riding herd on siblings.

[Seal]

They mentioned "dating with a purpose", which is what Kelly said her daughter was doing too. Sooo is there now a big shift away from using the word courtship because it sounds "bad" or too intense? Is Gothard promoting this too or is he dead set on courtship still? It's funny because we used to hear we don't date, we court but not any more.

[patsymae]

"It's funny because we used to hear we don't date, we court but not any more."

Perhaps because no one has come a'courting?

Or maybe because they are embarrassed that the Bates "girls" are "dating with a purpose" and seem to be far more successful in attracting potential, and acceptable, mates than any of the J'slaves? I firmly believe that J'Chelle has competition with Kelly Bates in her mind, and has had all along (and I think that has a lot to do with all the "building a house for our best friends crappola".). Now Kelly also has 19 kids, so no one-up for Michelle. Plus one of her girls has an actual musical talent and career--not judging the music here, but Erin Bates does a lot more than the Duggar violin ear-hurting fest. Then Erin gets engaged, or whatever these people call it, to somebody whom she actually knows and who likes her. And they aren't just chaperoned by siblings, they go out for an enjoyable time with Mom and Dad and another sister who has what normal people would consider a serious boyfriend.

And, and I can't believe I did this, if you go to the Bates website and see the pictures, the older girls are wearing normal clothes. Really, if you cut off the big hair and crappy make-up and just looked from the neck down, any of their outfits would be very acceptable, if not at sometimes considered good, by modern fashion magazines. And there are pictures of one younger sister of Erin (tori? Alyssa? I don't know) with a YOUNG MAN and they look like they are happy and having fun.

Not defending the Bates here, but in Duggar world, I think all of this must be grating on J/Chelle.

So, J/Chelle changes her words to "dating with a purpose," just like Kelly did. But to her credit Kelly changed that after the Zach disaster, J'Chelle just mouths in baby talk what she thinks J'Bob wants to hear. Who's going to "date with a purpose" a woman in her 20s who can't even volunteer to serve coffee in the service of the Lord unless she is accompanied by a sister and they have their parents' permission first, and who has been "trained" to tell any man who wants to speak to her that he must go through her father first?

J'Chelle, as stupid and self-absorbed she is, is recognizing on some level that she wants to hide from herself that "courtship" hasn't worked out for her daughters, that only one of her sons has been married and his "courted" wife is starting to show signs of removing brain fog, and she's panicking.

[Miggy]

I really don't care too much whether the Duggar ladies ever find men or not but I REALLY want someone to come all for Michael/a Bates. She comes across as such a loving person, seems to really like caring for babies and enjoys all the SAHM tasks (thinking all all those dresses she makes for her sisters - whether you like them or not, you have to admit she puts a lot of effort into them). I'd love to see her married with her own family to care for.

[Avalondaughter]

I'm curious what constitutes a "romance novel" in Michelle's world. Is a romance novel the erocitcally-tinged paperback you buy at CVS or is it any book where it explores the meeting of a man and a woman and follows the path of their relationship? Where would Michelle draw the line?

Is Pride and Prejudice a romance novel? It features an independently-minded woman who refuses to marry her parents' (or mother's anyway) choice for her and ends up marrying someone who doesn't even like her family very much. How about Jane Eyre? LIW's These Happy Golden Years. Those last two scandalously contain premarital kissing and unchaperoned time between two members of the opposite sex.

J'Chelle shelters her kids from sex so much that I suppose it wouldn't take much to titillate these girls. I read Jane Eyre at age 13 after years of watching love scenes on TV and in movies and reading them in books. When I reached Chapter 23 I remember how I felt. "Oh my god! She just spoke her mind and now he just kissed her. Yay! He kissed her! That means he feels the same way. What a shock that must be for proper Jane to be grabbed and kissed by a man who hasn't even asked her to marry him yet." Then I read on. I felt happy.

How would a J'Slave feel reading it? Let's assume she didn't immediately put the book down upon reading the phrase, "enclosing me in his arms, gathering me to his breast, pressing his lips on my lips" and kept reading. There is embracing and a tad more kissing. It would likely be the most erotic piece of entertainment a J'Slave ever encountered. I finished the chapter feeling happy. J'Slave would be scandalized and yet wondering why her panties were suddenly damp.

It would take a lot of sex in a novel in order for me to feel what just a kiss might make a Duggar feel. By sheltering them so much from "romance novels" commonplace romance is more eroticized.

[LostSamurai]

Oh good Lord....

There's like HOW many Christian/chaste romances out there? Not everything is Twilight or 50 Shades though I'd pay money for Clown Car's fragile little mind to understand that...

And my cat has had more experience with the opposite sex than the Duggar women. Stop giving this cult airtime already. They're an embarrassment to all Christians and Americans.

[lizziesmom]

Something that occurred to me is the mixed signals Mullet and Jim Boob are sending their kids. They expose them to baby charts, menstrual charts, PDA's between mom and dad, and constant discussions about reproduction/sex for this purpose while at the same time 'sheltering' them from the more innocuous part of healthy sexual development. I think it is beyond irresponsible to tell your kids they should not look or touch anyone of the opposite sex and then the minute they are married, throw them into the deep end of the pool and encourage them to go for it and reproduce.

[Just_Jane]

What I find interesting is there is a whole genera of Christian Romance novels. No sex in them. Just people trying to find the partner god has intended for them. Many of them deal with such subjects as learning to love again (in a godly way) after having your heart broken, redemption, building families, finding true love. Yes, very defrauding subjects there.

http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/christian-romance

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Christian-Ro ... 2CEEIKR1AQ

I hate it when I download a free romance novella on amazon and then find out it's a Christian one. It's like a wet blanket on what could be mildly entertaining. The talk of God tends to throw off the mood for me. I don't mind an innocent romance novel with no sex or one that leaves you at the bedroom door. I'm getting better at checking the section the book is listed in but sometimes they sneak in there.

[Knight of Ni]

My sister just lent me a copy of The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty. I haven't had a chance to start reading it yet but it should be interesting. If the Duggar's think a Harlequin Romance novel is porn, I wonder what they would have to say about this book.