19 Kids and Counting 2013 - The Duggars do Part 3

[isarhenne]

Could it be that one or several of the older girls are dating but are not (yet) in a courtship. Jill said they do "dating with a purpose", not directly doing a courtship like Josh did. Did'nt the Bates family change that, too? So there might be no courtship but maybe dating going on?

[JenniferJuniper]

Could it be that one or several of the older girls are dating but are not (yet) in a courtship. Jill said they do "dating with a purpose", not directly doing a courtship like Josh did. Did'nt the Bates family change that, too? So there might be no courtship but maybe dating going on?

I'm pretty sure "dating with a purpose" for them is the same thing as courtship. It's just sounds less 19th century.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Could it be that one or several of the older girls are dating but are not (yet) in a courtship. Jill said they do "dating with a purpose", not directly doing a courtship like Josh did. Did'nt the Bates family change that, too? So there might be no courtship but maybe dating going on?

Yes, the Bates family did switch to "dating with a purpose" after Zach's failed courtship. Kelly blogged about it some months ago, but I'm too lazy to go look it up right now.

[jaynie]

I think someone hit the nail on the head when they said that now that Michelle is not breeding nonstop, and she has to take a look at what she has actually created, the reality (or as much as she can comprehend of reality) is getting to her. JBoob talks nonstop about wanting No. 20--and I think she's figured out that that's not in the cards (and that seems to be the only thing he talks about--is she starting to realize that even to him she is just a breeding machine? Her oldest son is completely incapable of supporting his family, and I also suspect Anna is digging in her heels a little. Her older girls aren't getting any younger, and there doesn't seem to be a long line of well-off fundie young men lining up at the door for JBoob to vet before giving permission to speak to his daughters. Grandma Duggar also isn't getting any younger, and Jill and Jana are spending at least some time playing midwife, so at some point Michelle is going to have to pick up some of the burden of raising her younger children. Plus the mainstream media is less and less interested, and she may be realizing that outside of Gothardland, her "fans" are people who just consider her whole family to be a bizarre freak show.

I see a major breakdown in the works.

That makes me feel sad for Michelle, actually. It's easy to snark but she kind of perfectly fits the profile of a cult recruit (which, well, she is), put into physically demanding / exhausting "work" (ie. pregnancy) for years and years and year so she never has time to stop and think about what she's actually doing, who she's with, etc. But now there is time to start wondering. She's spent 20 odd years breeding kids she barely knows. She raised them in such a way that she was promised would make everything work out, and now she has four adult women sitting around playing midwife and waiting for suitors that won't come. She has kids that look constantly bored or angry or depressed, sometimes all three. She's married to Jim Bob, who is an absolute wanker. And I don't think she's noticed that before; she's been stuck in this high school-esque Queen Bee of Gothardism mode for over two decades, smiling for the camera, using her kids as props, etc, and now that's fading and she's stuck with the results, and the results aren't even remotely what she was promised.

I'm not defending her choices or values, or her terrible parenting, or her offensive political nonsense, or even her at times astonishingly irritating personality. But she got pulled into a cult when she was vulnerable, and she's been a victim as much as anyone, and maybe, just maybe, there is a small part of her that is starting to realize that. And since she's in so deep and has invested so much of her life in this BS, and screwed her kids lives over in the process, that she's probably not going to be able to come to terms with it, and as this episode proved she can't even rely on her husband for support. So I do think a breakdown might be imminent. And it kind of breaks my heart.

[Magdelope]

That makes me feel sad for Michelle, actually. It's easy to snark but she kind of perfectly fits the profile of a cult recruit (which, well, she is), put into physically demanding / exhausting "work" (ie. pregnancy) for years and years and year so she never has time to stop and think about what she's actually doing, who she's with, etc. But now there is time to start wondering. She's spent 20 odd years breeding kids she barely knows. She raised them in such a way that she was promised would make everything work out, and now she has four adult women sitting around playing midwife and waiting for suitors that won't come. She has kids that look constantly bored or angry or depressed, sometimes all three. She's married to Jim Bob, who is an absolute wanker. And I don't think she's noticed that before; she's been stuck in this high school-esque Queen Bee of Gothardism mode for over two decades, smiling for the camera, using her kids as props, etc, and now that's fading and she's stuck with the results, and the results aren't even remotely what she was promised.

I'm not defending her choices or values, or her terrible parenting, or her offensive political nonsense, or even her at times astonishingly irritating personality. But she got pulled into a cult when she was vulnerable, and she's been a victim as much as anyone, and maybe, just maybe, there is a small part of her that is starting to realize that. And since she's in so deep and has invested so much of her life in this BS, and screwed her kids lives over in the process, that she's probably not going to be able to come to terms with it, and as this episode proved she can't even rely on her husband for support. So I do think a breakdown might be imminent. And it kind of breaks my heart.

I'm feeling kind of sad for Michelle too. What a reality to wake up to.

Isn't there such a thing as pregnancy brain? Could that have affected her A LOT over the years? (And I'm not snarking, I'm seriously wondering) My older friends who are all mums say that pregnancy brain can be quite powerful at times and makes them forget and act weird and emotional and everything.

I don't know, what do you think?

[mrs]

That's because recycling is a myth and we'll always have landfill space :roll:

MrsYoungie, some rural areas only offer one huge trash bin for everything and I'm assuming that's the case with the Duggars. Doesn't make it okay for them to not recycle but like Buzzard said, I'm sure it's too much trouble to separate items appropriately and then haul them off.

You would think they would repurpose the "pickle jars." Like using them for crafty projects, or for storing small nick nacks. I personally like using old jars as coffee travel mugs.

[PopeJoan]

I hate to beat this topic to death, but seriously why did they need to bring a suitcase of diapers and a suitcase of snacks? I understand bringing diapers and snacks for the plane ride and perhaps the first few days until you get organized in a new place but SURPRISE, they actually do sell diapers and snacks in Japan AND China!!!! Imagine actually trying out the new products and foods of the place you are traveling to (the horror)!! There are xenophobic and they are encouraging their audience that it is totally okay to travel to another country with this mindset.

I've noticed this for every trip the Duggars have taken: they like to imagine themselves to be world travelers but all they do is feed into this cruise ship mentality of travel (i.e. you basically live on a floating America while partaking in the least threatening aspects of any country you visit, while never stepping out of your comfort zone). Why wouldn't they encourage their children to try the local Chinese and Japanese snacks and food staples, instead of insulting the Japanese by allowing them to bring snacks to their traditional Japanese breakfast (which btw is immensely insulting in Japanese culture)? They have an amazing opportunity to introduce their children to new experiences and instead all they are doing is adding legitimacy to the already bad reputation of American travelers ... brought to you by TLC! :angry-banghead:

[justmissedquiver]

I wonder if Michelle's emotional difficulties in part stems from the realization that since she is (probably) no longer a baby making machine, she realizes she has been Boob's sex object for umpteen years. Obviously, I don't know a thing about her libido, but now that sex doesn't carry the same purpose, perhaps her desire and/or satisfaction has decreased.

[auntsally28]

I really think this is make or break time for 19KAC. I am not sure that the Duggars have the education, energy or motivation to keep the franchise wheels a- rolling. How about a peep at how the Bates are doing? Or better still a new series.

An express elevator to Maxhell

Capers with the Kellers

Anderson Antics

Query the Queries

or my own personal favourite...Doug's Tool Shed.... :) I could go on....

[karismanic]

Am I the only one who thought all the "feelings" shared on the marriage retreat were complete crap? Everything Michelle shared was the most vague and common marriage issues a couple could have. The only time I came close to believing her was when she mentioned Jubilee.

Call me cynical, I guess, but I think the "perfect couple" just spouted off whatever sounded right to fabricate tension for the episode, justify a trip to Puerto Rico, and thus "minister" to us viewers.

[auntsally28]

I agree. If this series continues, it will become more contrived and based on their "ministry mindset". Even though my last post was a little flippant, part of me would prefer the honesty of many other less polished fundie families who don't pretend to be what they aren't....even if what they are is horrifying. Perhaps if people saw a glimpse of the reality of the patriarchal lifestyle, the reality of really being a Duggar is would hit home.

[Eternalbluepearl]

I agree it was very vague. "I don't feel heard..." "I could listen more..." "We've committed to listening..." "Husbands should listen more..."

[Petunia]

When Jill repeatedly mentions things that "create desires that can't be righteously fulfilled," I always think of Lois Lowry's book, "The Giver" where as soon as a child experiences "stirrings" their parents give them a pill to suppress them. I bet if such a pill were readily available, the Gothardites would give it to their children. And I wonder how many of these families have started making arranged marriages for their children?

[auntsally28]

It is called Biblical Betrothal...

toledoblade.com/Religion/2008/03/01/Biblical-betrothal-seen-as-way-to-stem-divorce.html

[itaintmebabe]

That makes me feel sad for Michelle, actually. It's easy to snark but she kind of perfectly fits the profile of a cult recruit (which, well, she is), put into physically demanding / exhausting "work" (ie. pregnancy) for years and years and year so she never has time to stop and think about what she's actually doing, who she's with, etc. But now there is time to start wondering. She's spent 20 odd years breeding kids she barely knows. She raised them in such a way that she was promised would make everything work out, and now she has four adult women sitting around playing midwife and waiting for suitors that won't come. She has kids that look constantly bored or angry or depressed, sometimes all three. She's married to Jim Bob, who is an absolute wanker. And I don't think she's noticed that before; she's been stuck in this high school-esque Queen Bee of Gothardism mode for over two decades, smiling for the camera, using her kids as props, etc, and now that's fading and she's stuck with the results, and the results aren't even remotely what she was promised.

I'm not defending her choices or values, or her terrible parenting, or her offensive political nonsense, or even her at times astonishingly irritating personality. But she got pulled into a cult when she was vulnerable, and she's been a victim as much as anyone, and maybe, just maybe, there is a small part of her that is starting to realize that. And since she's in so deep and has invested so much of her life in this BS, and screwed her kids lives over in the process, that she's probably not going to be able to come to terms with it, and as this episode proved she can't even rely on her husband for support. So I do think a breakdown might be imminent. And it kind of breaks my heart.

This happens to women. I know someone very well who had a similar experience (but very different circumstances), going along with what her husband did, believing everything he said, all the while complaining about him. And then at the end of her life having regrets of even having married him. But it was too late then because he died and she couldn't divorce him then. Maybe Michelle is starting to see the cracks in the wall, and that everything is not as it seems. But she's trapped and doesn't know how to get out.

[Closed Womb]

I hate to beat this topic to death, but seriously why did they need to bring a suitcase of diapers and a suitcase of snacks? I understand bringing diapers and snacks for the plane ride and perhaps the first few days until you get organized in a new place but SURPRISE, they actually do sell diapers and snacks in Japan AND China!!!! Imagine actually trying out the new products and foods of the place you are traveling to (the horror)!! There are xenophobic and they are encouraging their audience that it is totally okay to travel to another country with this mindset.

I've noticed this for every trip the Duggars have taken: they like to imagine themselves to be world travelers but all they do is feed into this cruise ship mentality of travel (i.e. you basically live on a floating America while partaking in the least threatening aspects of any country you visit, while never stepping out of your comfort zone). Why wouldn't they encourage their children to try the local Chinese and Japanese snacks and food staples, instead of insulting the Japanese by allowing them to bring snacks to their traditional Japanese breakfast (which btw is immensely insulting in Japanese culture)? They have an amazing opportunity to introduce their children to new experiences and instead all they are doing is adding legitimacy to the already bad reputation of American travelers ... brought to you by TLC! :angry-banghead:

The fact that they brought snacks didn't bother me at all. The fact that they ate snacks at a formal dining table while a traditional breakfast was in front of them was incredibly rude, IMHO.

This is something that seems to be attributed, in general, to "Americans", but I've hosted exchange students (high school aged) and I have found that people, especially young people, like food that they are more comfortable with, food they know. They would bring snacks, buy overpriced imported food when their snacks ran out, etc. It's not really a big deal and it didn't diminish them in my eyes. As someone who had season tickets to Disney World for 10+ years, I can attest to foreign visitors bringing their own food for picnic lunches/snacks (as someone who does like to try different cuisines, it was quite noticeable; it was actually hard not to ask about it if the food look particularly interesting/good). As a professor who worked at a university with a significant foreign student enrollment, I know that it can be hard for young adults to try new foods. This is not an exclusively American "problem" and is most certainly not an exclusively Duggar issue.

I've also traveled with picky eaters. I've always been able to strike a compromise; for instance, on a trip to Germany I let my picky eater friend choose lunch -- pretty much McDonalds with a few pizzas here and there -- while I picked dinners, local cuisine. It wouldn't have been my first choice, but hardly something to get uppity about.

I dunno -- of all the things the Duggars get wrong, wanting to make sure they had something to eat in case they didn't like the local food is just not something I can feel too superior over. (Again, eating the snacks should have been limited to hotel -- or at least outside of a restaurant/someone's table.)

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't think Michelle wants out; I think she's scared to death her kids are going to get out of Gothardism and feels the burden of preventing it rests entirely on her shoulders. As many posters have said over the years, it's hard enough managing a normal number of kids. 19 is impossible for one set of parents. Sure, the J-slaves can cook and clean and take the kids to the dentist for her but they aren't responsible for how they ultimately turn out. Her whole reason for existing these past 25 plus years was to make babies. That's over. Now what to do with all of those real human beings she kept pumping into the world? How the hell is she going to manage to keep them down on the farm and out of harm’s way with just that doofus of a husband helping her?

It's a pity Lance Loud wasn't around to warn Michelle back in the early days of the show. Not that she'd have ever talked to someone like Lance, but if she had, he would have told her that television would eventually eat her family too.

[Closed Womb]

Am I the only one who thought all the "feelings" shared on the marriage retreat were complete crap? Everything Michelle shared was the most vague and common marriage issues a couple could have. The only time I came close to believing her was when she mentioned Jubilee.

Call me cynical, I guess, but I think the "perfect couple" just spouted off whatever sounded right to fabricate tension for the episode, justify a trip to Puerto Rico, and thus "minister" to us viewers.

I think that Michelle may have been trying to say something real, but was too afraid to get too deep. I also think she really IS worried, perhaps sleeplessly worried, that her kids, especially the girls, would get sucked into the world or whatever she said. They have taken their perfectly sheltered lives and disrupted it for the sake of money. Those "kids" have had experiences and interactions with people they never would have met otherwise. They probably would still be makeup-less, in frumpers or Little House on the Prairie dresses if TLC hadn't come along. They probably genuinely LIKE their television crew. If she "looses" one or more of the kids (ie, they become mainstream) she will probably carry that guilt forever, believing she sold their salvation for the sake of a buck (okay, lots of bucks.)

I think JB and the "counselors" were just there for the TLC sponsored vacation. JB never really listened to her, which was, in fact, the problem she was trying to address. I don't know why the BS counselors didn't call him on it.

eta: cross post with JenniferJuniper

[JenniferJuniper]

I think that Michelle may have been trying to say something real, but was too afraid to get too deep. I also think she really IS worried, perhaps sleeplessly worried, that her kids, especially the girls, would get sucked into the world or whatever she said. They have taken their perfectly sheltered lives and disrupted it for the sake of money. Those "kids" have had experiences and interactions with people they never would have met otherwise. They probably would still be makeup-less, in frumpers or Little House on the Prairie dresses if TLC hadn't come along. They probably genuinely LIKE their television crew. If she "looses" one or more of the kids (ie, they become mainstream) she will probably carry that guilt forever, believing she sold their salvation for the sake of a buck (okay, lots of bucks.)

I think JB and the "counselors" were just there for the TLC sponsored vacation. JB never really listened to her, which was, in fact, the problem she was trying to address. I don't know why the BS counselors didn't call him on it.

eta: cross post with JenniferJuniper

Yup. We're on the exact same page on this. And we can't forget she knows a hell of a lot more than we do about what's going on with her kids right now. As bizarre as that episode was, I think it finally gave us a little insight into the cracks many of us suspect exist in their world.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think shes worried that shes totally screwed up parenting. The kids are way more worldly than they were before, and have gone from wearing ugly dresses and frumpers to fashionable but modest clothes, they have make up, fake tan, phones, laptops (although their access is very controlled), coffee, and get to travel the world. She sees Josh be lazy and Jimbob and TLC giving him money, and how hes relaxed the rules with his own children. Shes worried that the rest of the kids will become worldly when they leave home as well. Because her methods of "discipline" would probably make the film crew call CPS, she had to stop disciplining them as much, and she is aware that the Howlers have gone wild and when theyre teenagers she isnt going to be able to control them like she did with the girls. She believes that to go to heaven, you must be a fundie, and the kids are getting further away from that, so she feels that their greed over the TV show has condemned her children to Hell.

Also, her baby having days are over. No more babies means she has lost the main thing she bases her identity on. She is known as the woman with the massive herd of little children, but now theyre all growing up theyre losing their cuteness and appeal. She isnt going to be able to drag them around to conferences to play violin forever, or take them to childish outings. Its adorable when theyre a group of tiny little children, but it will be embarassing and sad when theyre all teenagers and adults. Its already sad enough to see the older ones do this. They seem to have a bit of self awareness of this, and their faces show just how bored and humiliated they are with all the babyish stuff.

Maybe shes waking up to reality and realised how bad this cult is, that she got sucked into when she was young, and realises it has ruined her life.

[pega127]

In addition; just maybe; she feels a little regret that her daughters (esp.) could not experience some of the fun aspects of teenage life as she did growing up due to her and JimBob's newly found fundie parenting style.

[Mama Mia]

I think shes worried that shes totally screwed up parenting. The kids are way more worldly than they were before, and have gone from wearing ugly dresses and frumpers to fashionable but modest clothes, they have make up, fake tan, phones, laptops (although their access is very controlled), coffee, and get to travel the world. She sees Josh be lazy and Jimbob and TLC giving him money, and how hes relaxed the rules with his own children. Shes worried that the rest of the kids will become worldly when they leave home as well. Because her methods of "discipline" would probably make the film crew call CPS, she had to stop disciplining them as much, and she is aware that the Howlers have gone wild and when theyre teenagers she isnt going to be able to control them like she did with the girls. She believes that to go to heaven, you must be a fundie, and the kids are getting further away from that, so she feels that their greed over the TV show has condemned her children to Hell.

Also, her baby having days are over. No more babies means she has lost the main thing she bases her identity on. She is known as the woman with the massive herd of little children, but now theyre all growing up theyre losing their cuteness and appeal. She isnt going to be able to drag them around to conferences to play violin forever, or take them to childish outings. Its adorable when theyre a group of tiny little children, but it will be embarassing and sad when theyre all teenagers and adults. Its already sad enough to see the older ones do this. They seem to have a bit of self awareness of this, and their faces show just how bored and humiliated they are with all the babyish stuff.

Maybe shes waking up to reality and realised how bad this cult is, that she got sucked into when she was young, and realises it has ruined her life.

I think she's having a basic mild mid-life crisis which is probably not helped at all by all of the reality show business. And I'm sure is made much worse by the loss of Jubilee, and having that be her last pregnancy.

I don't know if she was afraid to talk about her problems with JimBob, she probably just didn't want to get too personal about actual intimate /private life details in front of a million people.

[JenniferJuniper]

In addition; just maybe; she feels a little regret that her daughters (esp.) could not experience some of the fun aspects of teenage life as she did growing up due to her and JimBob's newly found fundie parenting style.

I doubt it. The Gothard kool-aid is running through her veins and barring a reality transfusion sometime in the future, she's never going to be sorry about her daughters having missed out on parties and dating.

My guess is that she's not too concerned about the four older daughters or Joseph. The daughters have continued to toe the line, and they'll probably find suitable husbands once the show ends. Joseph seems to be a good soldier. On other side of the equation, Josh is a loser/slacker by any measure and I think it's possible John's grown completely disgusted with living in a room with all of those kid brothers and has struck some kind of deal with Boob to move out on his own even though he's not married. But I'd bet it's the thought of dealing with the middle kids on down that scares her the most. The youngest ones are completely undisciplined and undereducated by anyone's standards, and the middle ones weren't yet indoctrinated when the cameras arrived. They've grown up in a very different environment than the older kids and almost certainly have different expectations about what their lives should be.

There could be some very rough waters ahead for the Mother of the Year and I think it's safe to say she knows it.

[gustava]

In addition; just maybe; she feels a little regret that her daughters (esp.) could not experience some of the fun aspects of teenage life as she did growing up due to her and JimBob's newly found fundie parenting style.

When pigs fly.

[ljohnson2006]

J'Chelle is probably happy that she has nothing to do with the parenting of her kids. She'd be crazier than she already is, if she actually had to parent her kids.