Ethnocentrism ?

[debrand]

My concern is for self-determination of people. Of course people can be non-Western and modern! I'm certainly not questioning that. I do understand the points you are making - my main concern is with atheism = superiority in general but also especially when applied to countries that are mostly religious. Perhaps this is a European perspective - Japan, China and Vietnam have a higher population of atheists than the US, but this is surely mostly down to sheer population size. Certainly, Europe is much more secular than the US so perhaps this is having an impact on my views, especially with France's aggressive secularism and Islamophobia.

Perhaps we are talking past each other because we seem to agree on a lot that we both believe is wrong. My knowledge of France is limited to news programs. The only thing that I know about their aggressive secularism is the case about the young woman who wanted to wear her head scarf. I thought it was wrong that wearing an item of clothing was even an issue. Even though I don't believe in religion, because we own our own bodies, I think that for the most part, we should be able to do with our bodies as we please and if that means wearing a headscarf, go ahead. I did not know that France was more Islamophobic than Fox News viewers in the United States

Don't most European countries have a state religion? Sorry to be so ignorant on the subject. I know that most Europeans are not religious but don't their countries still have an official church?

From my own perspective, most American atheists seem to be concerned mainly with our own country. We don't really share any other common idea except for a disbelief in a deity. There are atheists who believed in gun control and those who didn't. I've met right leaning and left leaning atheists. In the United States there doesn't appear to be any movement by atheists except the desire to be treated fairly.

[valsa]

Japan, China and Vietnam have a higher population of atheists than the US, but this is surely mostly down to sheer population size.

Nope, it's by percentage of population.

The U.S. has one of the lowest rates of atheism in the world (approx. 4% of the population which, iirc, includes agnostics in that figure) Compare with China (59%), Japan (64%), and Vietnam (81%) and I'm still not seeing how "athiest"="white".

[MyNameIsJonas]

Nope, it's by percentage of population.

The U.S. has one of the lowest rates of atheism in the world (approx. 4% of the population which, iirc, includes agnostics in that figure) Compare with China (59%), Japan (64%), and Vietnam (81%) and I'm still not seeing how "athiest"="white".

I don't think it's necessarily that athiest=white (at least in the context of the US), but that white males in the US have dominated the discussion of atheism and defined it for the rest of us. I used to belong to my on campus athiest group. In a group of about 30 members, there were five non-white members (two brown girls specifically) and only 8 women. Of course this led to discussions that were largely racist and sexist. Are there more white male atheists? Probably. But there are also many female, lgbt, black, latin@, asian, etc atheists and their concerns and experiences as atheists aren't being addressed within the larger dialogue, instead they have to fall back into their own safe spaces to discuss things. Atheism is still fledgling in the US and I think it's falling victim to the criticisms people had that the first feminist movements were about white, middle class women's problems, because there is truth in it.

[Shoobydoo]

I don't think it's necessarily that athiest=white (at least in the context of the US), but that white males in the US have dominated the discussion of atheism and defined it for the rest of us. I used to belong to my on campus athiest group. In a group of about 30 members, there were five non-white members (two brown girls specifically) and only 8 women. Of course this led to discussions that were largely racist and sexist. Are there more white male atheists? Probably. But there are also many female, lgbt, black, latin@, asian, etc atheists and their concerns and experiences as atheists aren't being addressed within the larger dialogue, instead they have to fall back into their own safe spaces to discuss things. Atheism is still fledgling in the US and I think it's falling victim to the criticisms people had that the first feminist movements were about white, middle class women's problems, because there is truth in it.

It's enough of a problem in the American atheist community that certain sectors of it are trying to form a new "branch" of atheism that specifically focuses on adressing gender, racial, and LGBT discrimination. They call themselves Atheism+. I have no idea how successful they are because I stopped reading any sort of blog regularly and even then I've rather lost my taste for PZ Myers. I think the creation of this group was largely spurred on by an incident where a prominent female Atheist blogger complained about being harassed at a con and the internet exploded into an ugly, misogynistic shitstorm about it.

As nice as it is that this group basically started out of a reaction AGAINST some recent misogynist scandals in the US atheist community, the whole thing makes me kind of unhappy because that kind of "this is our group and you guys are not part of our group (even if it's because you'e dickholes)" is probably the only thing I really hate about religion. Heck, I hate that about human culture at large. THAT'S where war and racism come from. I wish we could all just be human together, assholes and all.

Even Atheism+, though, is probably the brainchild of a bunch of highly educated white guys. I'm only familiar with one of the people involved, so I couldn't make any real comment about the other people who started up the idea.

[MyNameIsJonas]

I lurk on the Athiesm+ forum and it's alright.

I have seen some people fuck up and claim that Atheism+ is devoid of racism, sexism, etc (which isn't even possible) and that it's not possible to follow any of the isms and be a member of Atheism+ but that's just people royally twisting the mission statement of the group. It's educational, at the very least.

Unforunately, for assholes, when smarter people speak up, those assholes get excluded. That's just the way it is.

It's sad to have to have fringe groups but hopefully they can speak louder (and more inclusively) for the group as a whole

[Shoobydoo]

Yes, I wish them the best. The constant need for "othering", even to define hate from love, just makes me sad. The crazy hippie in me almost wonders if, if we were able to open up our arms and embrace our tormenters they'd have to amend their behavior out of shame. Probably not, oh well.

At the same time, groups like this have to be self aware. It's all well and good to say "well, WE'RE not the bad guys!" but it's not healthy to try and separate yourself from human nature. You can only fix the fact that shit like misogyny and racism exist by embracing the problem as a human one and fixing it at the source.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

But atheism (little a!) is a lot larger and more amorphous thing than groups of self-proclaimed "Atheists" on college campuses in the English-speaking United States, y'know?

Plenty of people are atheist or complain about religion or speak out against the pointless restrictions of this or that religious practice without ever having heard word one about what any groups on a college campus are doing. That's the part it seems people forget when they come out with the dismissive "oh, well, atheists are racists" or "atheists are all arrogant white supremacists" and the rest of it. It's just, what?

Do atheists think their own personal beliefs are right? Sure they do. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Religious people proselytize all the time, but because they're "traditional" they get a pass from that same criticism? Sure, I might think their beliefs are silly (though unless confronted, I'm generally polite enough not to go around yelling it). They think I'm bound for various religious punishments in my next life. We smile, pass in the street, life goes on.

[Shoobydoo]

But atheism (little a!)

Sorry, bad habit of mine. I'm a very sloppy typist at best and all those As got away from me.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Sorry, bad habit of mine. I'm a very sloppy typist at best and all those As got away from me.

Ah, I didn't intend to snark you, no worries. I was just thinking of the parallel with "little d" democratic/"big D" Democratic and similar, it seems there's a movement (in English speaking countries) to make Atheism with the big A into a sort of official club, and so it gets demonized for various things (rightly or wrongly) but just general atheism in the sense of "we don't believe in religion" is a wider thing, and so it just seems odd for me to hear that "atheism is racist" and similar, as I'm thinking of the small a, the wider sense which is nothing to do with the US or UK (or "white people" for that matter) in particular.

[Shoobydoo]

Eh, I didn't think you were snarking. You should see what my posts look like before the five rounds of "preview"-ing. Stray letters everywhere, inverted vowels, all kind of crazy.

ETA: OOooooh, I'm a vigorous leghumper now! :dance:

[Patsy]

ETA: OOooooh, I'm a vigorous leghumper now! :dance:

*edges away* :?

:lol: seriously I am loving these new post ranks