You've got to read it to believe it... Abigail Cries Poor

[NurseNell]

I read some more of her posts.

She clearly has issues.

What happened with her growing up? Clearly, her family had some money, but I'm wondering if there were some major strings/power struggles?

Her entire attitude toward money and responsibility seems to be dysfunctional from my POV. She creates situations where she and the family are struggling - and then goes on rants about pro-choicers who think that people should be prepared for pregnancy, rants about how she relies on G-d for her financial plan, rants about how her indulgences are totally deserved and necessary even while she's taken this vow of poverty, etc. The common thread seems to be that she's not focused AT ALL on realistic planning and managing, but rather seems to view these things as bad. Instead, she struggles, then says that it's just fine to struggle with kids, then panics about being poor to the extent that the kids are cold and hungry, then says that stupid spending for mental health is worth it, and finally ties up her arguments by claiming that she's rejected the worldly view of planning things and is somehow more Godly doing things this way. She doesn't see that it's not about crying "but I DESERVE it!" like a child, but rather about making an actual budget and setting out priorities.

If you have fed the kids and met their basic needs, and there is money left over - sure, do something you like. But hey, I'm not the one into martyrdom or vows of poverty, and I also think that parents have a responsibility to do everything in their power to meet their children's basic needs.

Once again, I'm also wondering if this is one of the big draws of the fundie/pro-life world: this idea that you don't need to plan anything, it's fine if you suck as a parent, and you are simply awesome for the mere fact that you didn't take the birth control pill or abort.

I couldn't sleep last night so I too read quite a bit of her blog. Her parents both have PhD's and are college professors, her mother in education and child development, her Dad in poly sci. They are Methodists, she was active in her church growing up.The family are Democrats, there were large Kennedy photos on the wall of her home growing up. She has a sister and brother. The sister spent 3 years as a Peace Corps volunteer in West Africa, isn't married. Her brother is a political activist and staffer in the Republican party. Her family has had a hard time understanding and dealing with her conversion.

She spent about 4 years as an attorney working with poor women and mothers in West Virginian Appalachia so she has seen true poverty up close. This makes it harder to understand why she thinks they are poor now. Compared to her parents and siblings yes but by other standards no.

She writes about keeping her virginity until she was 21 and a senior in college. Her mother had let her know starting at age 8 if she ever got pregnant to come to her early and she'd take her for an abortion. In law school she went with a friend who had an abortion done. She started becoming pro-life at that time, before Catholicism.

She has long struggled with perfectionism, anxiety, and depression. Her husband is a graphic designer who is out of the house 14 hours/day. She has 5 children under 10, yet says she struggled with secondary infertility. Not sure how there was time for that given she also had a 12 week miscarriage. They had a funeral, with a tiny casket, which her parents didn't attend. One child was seriously ill and in PICU. She home schools. I fear she is a tragedy waiting to happen. She's a mystery to her parents and all her liberal friends from law school at UW Madison, so I don't think she gets much emotional support from them. Plus she thinks she's as wounded as a baby in an Eastern European orphanage because her mother put her in day care at age 6 weeks so she could get on with her academic career.

The husband was a cop's son so a much different social upbringing. He was Catholic but your Easter/Christmas kind until they got together and started traveling the road to uber Catholicism together.

She is convinced the older daughter will be a nun and refers to her as the future nun. I see trouble ahead for that poor child. I didn't see anything about programming her son for the priesthood.

There is a part of me that feels sorry for her, another part that wants to slap her upside the head.

[Wolfie]

Ebay. Cellos for $150 with free shipping. For less than the cost of 2 months rental.

What the ever-living fuck.

As a music teacher, I think that one of those cellos would be a bigger waste of money than renting one that actually works.

[singsingsing]

She is a disturbed person, and her husband only encourages it. They seem very isolated, with no meaningful connection to their families, and no close friends. They seem to alienate people, and blame the people in question for judging them or 'heaping scorn' on them. I don't think I have ever encountered someone so consumed with how other people see her than Abigail. It's a very unhealthy situation. She's also desperate to have another child.

[lilwriter85]

Ebay. Cellos for $150 with free shipping. For less than the cost of 2 months rental.

What the ever-living fuck.

I can understand people wanting to have hobbies or learn new things. There are sometimes ways to do those things at a cheaper prices. When I first read about Abigail renting a cello, I thought that was crazy. When I was in my middle school band, instrument rentals were an option. But most parents decided to buy used instruments because in some cases it was cheaper than rental fees. Some parents thought buying instruments were good investment because they had other kids. I wondered why Abigail and Jon didn't buy a used cello.

[NurseNell]

I think the Super Catholic type fundie families are a bit rare in some parishes. There was one at the parish I attended with my family. The couple had 7 kids and the mom believed in staying home, but there were a few times she worked seasonal jobs at a ski area to get the family ahead once in awhile. Both of the parents in this family came from Catholic families, but none of their relatives were as extreme as them. The wife was one of the teachers in my confirmation class for awhile and she was my least favorite one. Later on, I found out that most students and even a couple of the other confirmation teachers thought she was too extreme. My aunt has told me about Super Catholic families at her parish in Colorado Springs. These are large families that homeschool and very strict. My maternal grandmother had various subscriptions to Catholic magazines. I remember in 2001 or 2002 reading about Catholic homeschooling in one of her magazines. One of the families profiled had 9 kids. In 2005, I read a blog about Catholic family in Kentucky. They had 11 kids and homeschooled. They banned most TV shows and the kids didn't listen to secular music. The family was pretty social though. The kids were involved in parish youth groups and a couple of the sons played on a parish basketball team that competed against other parish teams. The blog was written mostly by the mother and it was taken down later on.

I have known a lot of ultra conservative Catholics because of St. Agnes Church in the Twin Cities. It is a mecca for them. My older son went to their high school. The publishers of The Wanderer newspaper are active there. The Wanderer is the most conservative Catholic publication in the U.S. I was seated at a table with some of them once at an ordination dinner and I had nothing I could talk to them about, given I was a ebil divorced single Mom. It was very awkward.

My son has 2 classmates who became ultra conservative priests. The high school and parish have produced more priests than any other in MN. Another girl became a nun. Not a sister, who can be out in the world, but a nun, cloistered for her entire life. She could not attend her grandfather's funeral. He was a permanent deacon in the Church. She was always a tad weird. Her father is a firefighter, a super nice guy. Her mother is more than weird. She dresses in black from her neck to her ankles and walks around the block praying the rosary everyday.

I am fascinated by this type of Catholic but could never be one. In some ways I see this kind of religiosity as a mental illness.

[Koala]

As a music teacher, I think that one of those cellos would be a bigger waste of money than renting one that actually works.

She can't afford groceries half the time. She doesn't need any cello at all.

[NurseNell]

My one question that hasn't been asked yet: who disconnects their old heating system before they have the new one in place? Because she didn't like the way the pipes looked?? Honey, it's not about having a fabulous kitchen. It's about staying warm. Also I agree that 59 degrees for a few days is not going to kill anyone. I too have lived in old, cold houses. Put a sweater on and you'll be fine.

Radiators might not be attractive but they provide warmth. My apartment is about 125 years old, it's heated by radiators. I love them. I hate forced air heat because of my asthma. Electric heaters like she bought are not economical, it's expensive to heat with electricity. And if you hate the look of radiators they have really nice looking radiator covers.

[Koala]

She can't afford groceries half the time. She doesn't need any cello at all.

or flowers. Walks on the beach with a pina colada in my hand send me to my happy place, but I have to do boring things like you know, paying the mortgage :roll:

[Wolfie]

She can't afford groceries half the time. She doesn't need any cello at all.

Oh, I agree there. I was just saying that spending $150 on a crap cello that probably doesn't work is worse than renting one.

[mockingbird]

I have known a lot of ultra conservative Catholics because of St. Agnes Church in the Twin Cities. It is a mecca for them. My older son went to their high school. The publishers of The Wanderer newspaper are active there. The Wanderer is the most conservative Catholic publication in the U.S. I was seated at a table with some of them once at an ordination dinner and I had nothing I could talk to them about, given I was a ebil divorced single Mom. It was very awkward.

My son has 2 classmates who became ultra conservative priests. The high school and parish have produced more priests than any other in MN. Another girl became a nun. Not a sister, who can be out in the world, but a nun, cloistered for her entire life. She could not attend her grandfather's funeral. He was a permanent deacon in the Church. She was always a tad weird. Her father is a firefighter, a super nice guy. Her mother is more than weird. She dresses in black from her neck to her ankles and walks around the block praying the rosary everyday.

I am fascinated by this type of Catholic but could never be one. In some ways I see this kind of religiosity as a mental illness.

Interesting. The really Catholic girl I knew in college is from MN. I know she went to a public high school but I wonder if they were close enough to the Twin Cities to go to St. Agnes, sounds just like her. Her parents came to visit and they were very awkward to talk to, a lot of the false-nice "ohhh" after everything you said. They seemed even worse than her.

Oh LifeTeen. I forgot about them. I think we had some of their worksheets for my religion classes (I went to religion class until I was confirmed in 8th grade) but my church didn't really buy the rest of it. Here is their latest gem:

http://lifeteen.com/the-pill-just-a-cover-up/ The Pill is like putting cover-up on acne because it doesn't solve the problem and just makes it worse by putting you at risk for lots of scary side effects. (While true it is not a cure since you have to keep taking it to get the desired effect, sometimes the best option *is* to regulate your cycle which will help calm things down and possibly prevent further damage like in endometriosis. Or even just something like very heavy periods, sometimes the pill is the best option. I guess we should get rid of insulin too because it's not curing the cause of diabetes. Who cares if people would die otherwise?) Also, if your doctor wants to prescribe you the pill, he/she thinks you're a slut.

[NurseNell]

Interesting. The really Catholic girl I knew in college is from MN. I know she went to a public high school but I wonder if they were close enough to the Twin Cities to go to St. Agnes, sounds just like her. Her parents came to visit and they were very awkward to talk to, a lot of the false-nice "ohhh" after everything you said. They seemed even worse than her.

Could well be, people came from all over MN, IA, and WI to attend there. The Mass is in Latin, communion on the tongue, priest with back to people. Lots of bells and smoke.

[fakepigtails73]

Abigail is not poor by any chance...At least, she's not poor financially. She is poor in the brain department and she's a poor homemaker as well, according to what she writes on her blog. She has no managing skills.

That "poverty" post of her is a real slap in the face to the millions of women living in poverty in the US. She reminds me of this acquaintance of mine who was so proud to tell me she left her McMansion to spend one weekend "roughing it in the wild" in a campground near Wasaga Beach. For a second I laughed in my head while thinking about it, as she's one of the most high-maintenance person I know and all I could imagine was her pesting the whole time about mosquitoes, while her husband completely tuning her out by relaxing in a folding chair with a cold beer (he's not a snob at all) and her sons having the time of their lives playing around. But no!! She told me that they went to one of those new campgrounds for the rich where everything is allready set up for you when you arrive, they have real beds with sheets in the tents (I kid you not!). I have a hard time calling that "camping in the wild", but hey, to each her own! The price they paid for all this was an arm and a leg.

ETA: I don't compare the woman I know with Abigail, not at all! I just mean that sometimes what people say something is isn't really what it is in reality (weird sentence!! :think: ) In my mind a "camping trip" is when you arrive in a campground, set your own tent yourself, bring your own food and yes, there will be mosquitoes so bring the Muskol, you'll get dirty so if you're dead set on taking a shower anyways at the facilities bring some soap and shampoo that is unscented if you can find some, and yes, bring some flip flops to be used exclusively at the showers and lavatories. Major fungus factory!

[ianthe]

It seems possible that Abigail valorizes poverty because she sees herself as a Carmelite, and members of religious orders take vows of poverty. She sees being poor as fulfilling her vows. So if she (and, most unfortunately, her children) are comfortable, she's broken a vow.

Now, "religious poverty" is a complicated issue, and I am not sure Abigail is capable of a nuanced approach to it. She seems to be a very all-or-nothing person.

Normally, religious poverty does not mean going without necessities, like food or warm clothing or (in Minnesota particularly!) heat. It does mean going without luxuries. Such as a cello if you cannot heat your home. (And, having known some string players, I'd say that the cold in that house isn't good for the cello, either.) I should also say that communal life, as experienced by people living in convents and monasteries, allows economies of scale that make religious poverty a bit easier. In some religious orders, such as the Carmelites, the level of "poverty" is more strictly defined than in others. Active orders (such as teaching orders) are usually less strict about it, but the nuns I had in high school in the late 1960s were sometimes actually hungry: the archdiocese paid them, as one later told me with some bitterness, in "loose change" and most of the rather fancy tuition we paid went to the church hierarchy. This is in a church, mind you, that is notoriously rich.

Full disclosure: I am no longer religious at all, but I went to Catholic schools until high school graduation (at which point I picked a college for the number of non-Catholic boys who attended, in the hope, eventually realized, of marrying one).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Silly question, but how hard is it to convert to natural gas if you have an old oil furnace? Natural gas prices have come down, and even with our gas stove, our bill is pretty small. Our electric bill, OTOH, seems to constantly increase. Electric heaters would not be a cheap way to heat a home.

[Stephers831]

As someone born and raised in WV I honestly just want to smack this woman. My husband and I don't make $58,000 a year combined and I have a college education. My car is a 2005 model with over 110,000 miles on it and we're praying we can make it last another 2 years, even living inside the city limits there is no bus service within 2 miles of where we live. Thankfully I was taught to cook on a budget so I have no trouble feeding us on a budget, I suppliment our meat supply with venision from family and that helps too. My mother was the first college educated person in her family and she had a straight scholorship so what has killed me and my credit have been student loans. Dad and I didn't quite understand them when I signed up for them and didn't realize how they'd work. Until recently dad carried me on his car insurance and paid my cell phone bill monthly to help me out since I have such high medical bills but when I got married and hubby got insurance that actually covered all 10 of my prescriptions we started paying those bills.

[NurseNell]

Silly question, but how hard is it to convert to natural gas if you have an old oil furnace? Natural gas prices have come down, and even with our gas stove, our bill is pretty small. Our electric bill, OTOH, seems to constantly increase. Electric heaters would not be a cheap way to heat a home.

I don't know but my son had his very old, inefficient natural gas heater removed and a new one installed, it was about $5,000.

Where my daughter lives the choice is propane or electric, no natural bass lines. They use propane.

In WV where Abigail is I'd think there'd be natural gas lines.

[fakepigtails73]

I don't know but my son had his very old, inefficient natural gas heater removed and a new one installed, it was about $5,000.

Where my daughter lives the choice is propane or electric, no natural bass lines. They use propane.

In WV where Abigail is I'd think there'd be natural gas lines.

Nothing to add except to mention my irrational fear of gas and propane... :shock: This is, along with a fear of snakes, my only big phobia.

A long time ago, when it came time to fly on my own and get my very 1st appartment, my best friend and I fell in love with this wonderful large 2 bedroom in an area that was about to become THE trendy place to live ; we were about to give the owner our infos for the credit check when my friend asked how it was heated and what kind of stove we need. The owner replied that it was natural gas and that the heat was included in the rent. Before going further we canceled the whole thing and left. I felt so bad! I don't know where does this phobia comes from; most likely it is, from all the time I spent at the library's newspaper archives. When reading stuff in our 50s and 60s local papers I often read stuff such as: "Gas line ruptured on Adam street: family of 6 obliterated" or "Gas explosion in Lasalle, 15 people dead, 8 missing." Yes, I know that natural gas in 2013 is different than it was in 1964; phobias are not rational!

Oh, and just a warning: never, ever, move in with your best friend for a long time period (it's fine for short term like a month or something). You'll end up losing a friend, and I'm not the only one this ever happened to...We lived together for almost a year, and the last time we ever saw each other was when I went to give her the keys. Worst thing is, there was never any atrocious fights or stolen boyfriends...It's the little "daily" things in the long run.

ETA: I ended up posting about heating gas phobias and best-friends as roomates, talk about a major thread derail! Sorry! 8-)

[NurseNell]

Nothing to add except to mention my irrational fear of gas and propane... :shock: This is, along with a fear of snakes, my only big phobia.

A long time ago, when it came time to fly on my own and get my very 1st appartment, my best friend and I fell in love with this wonderful large 2 bedroom in an area that was about to become THE trendy place to live ; we were about to give the owner our infos for the credit check when my friend asked how it was heated and what kind of stove we need. The owner replied that it was natural gas and that the heat was included in the rent. Before going further we canceled the whole thing and left. I felt so bad! I don't know where does this phobia comes from; most likely it is, from all the time I spent at the library's newspaper archives. When reading stuff in our 50s and 60s local papers I often read stuff such as: "Gas line ruptured on Adam street: family of 6 obliterated" or "Gas explosion in Lasalle, 15 people dead, 8 missing." Yes, I know that natural gas in 2013 is different than it was in 1964; phobias are not rational!

I'm deathly afraid of propane, less afraid of natural gas. Although when I sold my house and had the inspection I found out I had a gas leak in the basement, I was told I was lucky the house hadn't blown up. I love gas cooking so much better than electric.

Snakes, oh my.My daughter is a county surveyor. Their department shares space with public works. A phone call came in one day from a man who had a HUGE snake come up into the toilet. I wish I still had the photo, it was a pine snake. So they go out to inspect his property. The septic tank had a crack in it and more than 100 pine snakes were wintering there. It was incredible, they are big snakes. He had to have his septic tank replaced. And now I look in every toilet before I sit down. :o

[Black Aliss]

#threadjack alert

When reading stuff in our 50s and 60s local papers I often read stuff such as: "Gas line ruptured on Adam street: family of 6 obliterated" or "Gas explosion in Lasalle, 15 people dead, 8 missing." Yes, I know that natural gas in 2013 is different than it was in 1964; phobias are not rational!

Phobias may not be rational but your fear of gas explosions certainly is reasonable. Remember the pipeline explosion in WV last December? The San Bruno, CA explosion in 2010? All the ones in between? Granted, these days a gas explosion is more likely to involve the pipeline running outside or under your house, and not one of the appliances indoors so it's not as if you're any safer if you replace your gas appliances and furnace with electric.

http://www.naturalgaswatch.org/?cat=8

Obligatory snark: Abigail explains to us that she's poor because she feels poor. Okay, then.

[Caribou]

Funny how regional differences affect one's perception!

I live in a smallish (120,000 people) city in northern Canada. EVERYONE in our community heats with natural gas. When I was a kid in the 1960's a few people still had oil furnaces but by the 1970's all had converted to gas. Many also supplement with wood or pellet stoves. It gets cold here in the winter. Like -20C to -45C cold. I can't imagine using electricity to heat our home. As it is, my electric bill in the winter (for lights, appliances, tv) runs about $400 for 2 months. If we had to use electric for heat, our bill would easily exceed $2,000 for the same period.

And I've never heard of a gas explosion in our area in all of my 50+ years!

[divadivine]

Abigail reminds me of Veruca Salt from the movie Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

I want the world. I want the whole world. I want to lock it all up in my pocket. It's my bar of chocolate. Give it to me now.

[Talitha Cumi]

As a music teacher, I think that one of those cellos would be a bigger waste of money than renting one that actually works.

Really? Why? I learned on a crappy Suzuki violin, and didn't get a good one until about six years later.

[Boltingmadonna]

I wouldn't bother to criticize Abigail's choices--McDonald's, crappy cello, whatever--except for two things:

1. Children. Her kids are being affected by this, and she shows no signs of slowing down on the pregnancies. Let's not forget that each new baby is another chance for her to get that CF kid I'm convinced she covets. Her obsession with other mommy bloggers who have special needs children is a bad sign. She won't be satisfied till she is one of God's special mommies also.

2. God. With the above-mentioned exception of her children's welfare, I don't care what kind of wacky decisions she makes. But for the love of mercy, don't make it all about GOD. You want a cello, rent a cello--just don't claim some kind of divine sanction for your every whim. You're not that special. It's creepy to think God cares whether you go to WalMart or not.

[Wolfie]

Really? Why? I learned on a crappy Suzuki violin, and didn't get a good one until about six years later.

If you would believe it, they are crappier than Suzuki brand violins, and a large instrument that is cheaper than a cheap violin? They have worse than crappy tone, and when they do break, which they will, most instrument repair shops won't fix the cheap off brand instruments. Stay away from the cheap instruments that costco, walmart and sam's occasionally carry as well, for the same reasons.

Now, if you can luck out and get a reasonable, gently used violin without any major damage for that price, go ahead. I have a garage sale banjo that was $50 (about 15 years ago), which is a decent instrument. BUT my mom saw the instrument in person before it was bought.

[mockingbird]

Let's not forget that each new baby is another chance for her to get that CF kid I'm convinced she covets. Her obsession with other mommy bloggers who have special needs children is a bad sign. She won't be satisfied till she is one of God's special mommies also.

Yeah, her attitude here is just scary. I really, really hope for a future-child-with-CF's sake that she does not have a child with CF. The last thing they would need is a mother who makes their suffering all about her and could potentially deny treatments to prolong that ever-holy suffering. It'd be like Munchausen's by-proxy but she wouldn't need to make it up. :( I hope she keeps her blog open though so we can keep tabs on this issue and even her current situation in case it were to get so bad that someone felt they should call CPS.