You've got to read it to believe it... Abigail Cries Poor

[desertvixen]

Her entire attitude toward money and responsibility seems to be dysfunctional from my POV. She creates situations where she and the family are struggling - and then goes on rants about pro-choicers who think that people should be prepared for pregnancy, rants about how she relies on G-d for her financial plan, rants about how her indulgences are totally deserved and necessary even while she's taken this vow of poverty, etc. The common thread seems to be that she's not focused AT ALL on realistic planning and managing, but rather seems to view these things as bad. Instead, she struggles, then says that it's just fine to struggle with kids, then panics about being poor to the extent that the kids are cold and hungry, then says that stupid spending for mental health is worth it, and finally ties up her arguments by claiming that she's rejected the worldly view of planning things and is somehow more Godly doing things this way. She doesn't see that it's not about crying "but I DESERVE it!" like a child, but rather about making an actual budget and setting out priorities.

This, completely. Is it the end of the world if I make a financial mistake? No.

However, I have:

a job (but no husband)

a generally full pantry - so I could probably skip grocery shopping for a week or two, and the only thing really missing would be fresh produce

backup sources of money

The issue is learning from her mistakes, which she never does.

Once again, I'm also wondering if this is one of the big draws of the fundie/pro-life world: this idea that you don't need to plan anything, it's fine if you suck as a parent, and you are simply awesome for the mere fact that you didn't take the birth control pill or abort.

QFT.

I'm saving a second post for her latest poverty and anti-planning screed....

[desertvixen]

abigails-alcove.blogspot.com/2013/01/am-i-poor.html

I'm sensing a lot of negatively about the central question "Do I have the right to call myself poor?" Also, a related question "You are only poor because of your own stupid financial decisions. Stop tormenting your children, start living "smarter" and then you won't be poor anymore."

I feel poor. Objectively, I'm at the 165% of the poverty level for my family size in America. I'm not qualified for Food Stamps. There are many needy families who struggle far below me. Yet, 165% of the poverty line--that's not "nothing." If I was a single person at that level I'd make $17,000 a year. I could be a total idiot, but living comfortably on $17,000 for the rest of my life--that would be a struggle for me.

Except you keep continually saying that you don't feel poor, talk about how poverty is really a gift, all that BS. Join the party, a lot of us are not happy with the money we make.

I also feel poor because my childhood was spent among the Upper Middle Class. I totally lack good financial savvy skills to live on a tight income. I also have a lot of vague worries about parenting--like am I being a good parent if the child who really loves music doesn't have a piano to take lessons on.

Admitting you lack skills is a good step. These skills can be acquired. I understand it isn't easy, but it can be done.

And yes, if you can't afford for your kid to have music lessons because you have to meet all of your "needs" (quotes because I don't mean actual needs, but what Abigail seems to term needs) and because you could change the situation if you put some work into it, YOU ARE BEING A BAD PARENT. Circumstances that are obviously beyond your control are a different story, but IMO Abigail is not one of these cases.

The bigger questions is "if you're poor are you allowed to have some nice pleasures in life?" I think holy recreation is great. One of the things that is unique about me is that I'm an artist. It doesn't make any logical sense, but seriously, I am a better human being if I buy $3 worth of flowers and put them in my kitchen windowsill each week. I love flowers. I love beauty. That little "perk" I get when I come into my kitchen it is a smile. That smile is tangible--that means more love and more gentleness in my heart for dealing with the toddler having a tantrum on the kitchen floor in front of me.

No, Abigail, appreciating beauty does not make you unique or an artist.

"But you are doing so many things wrong! You could be saving money left and right. You could grow your own flowers and bake your own bread and use cloth diapers." Yes and no. I'm in a hard season in my life. I'm alone for 14 hours each day with 5 kids under age 10. Two are having fits with teething. Two are having fits with homeschooling. I recently moved to a new city and have yet to find that easy friendship to swap free babysitting services. I'm starting a new life in West Virginia from scratch--and its a little rough at the beginning. Getting into a smooth "cost effective" rhythm is going to take time.

Okay, I'll grant her this. Starting off new is hard. How long have they been there, though? However, I would point out that being home alone with her five kids under age 10 is a choice she has made.

So, yes. I have done quote "better with cost saving measures" in the past. We've done cloth diapers. We've boycotted McDonalds for five years and Wal-Mart for ten. We've baked our own bread. Right now my approach is "easy does it." I try my best to save money, but I'm not going to kill myself with stress. At this moment, I still have a young infant who is high needs. I have a new house that needs much renovation. I have a husband who has a very hard commute--and a marriage that really needs tending too.

Making the house pretty is not a need. Fixing something that is an actual problem - yes. Pretty? Not so much.

For me, it's really about getting back to basics.

Actually, it's all about what SHE needs.

One of her commenters:

I think you need to consider how your life is going to be as you continue to be a catholic. You will probably have more children and have to stretch your already tight budget out to feed and care for them. Regardless of the vows you took owe it to your children to make sure they are fed, clothed, etc.

I understand that the little and big "wants" help you to feel sane and happy. But you have to find a way to curb your "want" impulse if it that takes priority in your spending and the grocery money gets blown on special treats

Abigail:

Dear Ms Jess: "But you have to find a way to curb your "want" impulse if it that takes priority in your spending and the grocery money gets blown on special treats."

I'm very sorry, but this statement seems very counter to what I've actually written in all of these poverty posts.

I didn't say it was okay to "steal" my family's grocery money and spend it on myself or on special treats.

To the bolded: BUT YOU KEEP DOING IT. You keep doing it, you keep blogging about it. Ms Jess is spot on, IMO.

(Just a brief introduction to myself for new readers. My name is Abigail B. I'm in my second year of a 3 year temporary promise to live out a life of "poverty, chastity, and obedience" as a Discalced Carmelite)

Is this the first time she has referred to it as temporary?

[luv2run]

I made my promise in the same time as Abigail.

I'm not sure if she's made reference to it being temporary,

but it is. With the emphasis of "tends towards" the evangelical

counsels of chasity, poverty, and obedience.

I have our Carmelite Constitutions for Seculars.

The friar for our community brought us newly revised ones

and went over them with the community a few months ago.

One thing I remember him stressing was that the constitutions

for the Seculars and religious were different. It was good to have him

go over everything with us. I don't believe she was there

at that meeting. (I can't remember)

I have always been under the impression, and Fr. Dal

went over this, was that our committment to Carmel

is to enhance, not take away, from or families. And that

any promise we've made is for us personally.

In regards to finances, we have a co op class on

finances for kids via Dave Ramsey. Good for them to

learn early, and teaches them healthy detachment

(something else in Carmel). Ie, not letting money burn

a hole in your pocket (like my 9 year old loves to

do and it's been a huge pain teaching him to

SAVE).

And yes, the more kids you have, the more you

just have to budget better and spend wisely. A huge must.

[luv2run]

And my apologies on the horrendous amount of spelling errors.

I was posting from my phone.

[Bloo]

I was raised upper middle class with no financial skills, either. So was my husband. Know what, though? WE'RE FUCKING LEARNING. We have to, what with him being out of work until August and not having paid disability leave. But food, gas, and bills come first, then medical supplies and medicine, then Venus's supplies, then most everything else. Point is, you figure it out when the need arises.

If her child is musically inclined, can't she find a children's choir or something? Surely that would be cheaper than a fucking PIANO.

[LostSamurai]

If you got five kids, then you seriously need to curb your fiances, not splurge on flowers and shit.

Especially if you're supposedly a Carmelite.

[Coconut Flan]

I want to know when she has time to do all those daily prayers she's supposed to be doing.

[NurseNell]

I want to know when she has time to do all those daily prayers she's supposed to be doing.

I wonder that too. I used to do those prayers so I know they aren't fast. Maybe she's a person who needs little sleep.

[amydamy]

I want to know when she has time to do all those daily prayers she's supposed to be doing.

I don't think she spends all that much time with her kids. I've never seen anything in reference to their homeschooling other than the fact they are home schooled.

[lilith]

If she's taken a vow of chastity, is her marriage currently celibate?

[NurseNell]

If she's taken a vow of chastity, is her marriage currently celibate?

Chastity and celibacy are two entirely different things. Chastity within marriage means being faithful to one's spouse. Celibacy means one doesn't engage in sexual behavior.

[lilith]

Chastity and celibacy are two entirely different things. Chastity within marriage means being faithful to one's spouse. Celibacy means one doesn't engage in sexual behavior.

Thank you, I didn't realise that and was wondering how chastity and the desire for another baby worked together.

[Coconut Flan]

Third order always works within one's station in life so it would be nothing against any normal parts of being of a wife and mother. Poverty should be more poverty of spirit rather than any consideration of depriving her family of needs. She seems to miss the true point a lot of the time.

[chaotic life]

They make a LOT more money than I assumed with her constant whining about poverty. To qualify for international adoption, they would need to have an income of at least $38K annually, which apparently they are well above.

I always figured if she really IS adopting, that she's so rabidly pro-life she would go through Catholic Charities and convince herself she saved a baby from abortion.

However, she specifically references special needs adoptions and if she were to adopt a WV child (versus looking in other states), the highest adoption subsisdy she could get on a child is $764/month. Last I knew, NYS had the highest subsidy rate but I didn't check to see what it currently is. I *think* it's around $3K/month now. She could easily use CSS, who offers reduced rates for Catholics and a sliding scale fee (though she's above the highest income I've EVER seen on the CSS sliding scales in about six different states) and she could then adopt a special needs newborn with Spence-Chapin, who is really good at advocating for the adoption subsidies for the kids they place.

If she finds a religious based agency, she could talk her way through a homestudy. However, CSS is going to be less likely to fall for it, since CSS is generally NOT conservative and strictly uses MSWs to do their homestudies (versus unlicensed workers who simply have a MSW in the agency sign off on their work). She could find a conservative, "pro-life" adoption agency she could fool EXCEPT they also tend to be extremely Fundie and ant-Catholic.

I'm not digging thorugh WV's specific guidelines. They are going to have a house size requirement. They don't appear to have family size limitations. I don't know what the house size requirements are. In every state I've worked with except IL, we were required to have "enough space" which was more subjective than objective. A bunkbed and not too many siblings in one room handled that one just fine. IL required a window and at least 35sqft per child in the home, though. That social worker showed up with a tape measure but realized our house covered that space requirement without needing to measure it precisely.

What they would have trouble is you MUST require reference letters. It's mandatory for all adoptions, and mandatory for immigration if you adopt internationally as well. They are so isolated and so divisive in their behaviors, I don't know how they would get 3 glowing reference letters. Most Fundies who do this with large families are in Fundie churches and get the minister and several other like-minded families to do it for them. I don't see those interactions and relationships in their lives.

As for being approved for special needs adoptions, they would have to PROVE they could manage the special needs. If they go through the state, then they would have to prove that to the adoption committee representing the child. If they go through a placing agency, then they would have to prove it to the placing agency, not their homestudy agency. If they go international, then they must prove it to both the agency representing the child AND the US government. Because we always adopt special needs, everytime we were matched with a specific child with specific issues, we submitted an addendum to detail exactly how we would meet the specific needs of the child we were pursuing an adoption, versus merely having approval for a host of special needs. Again, most Fundies find enough "resources" and "experts" in their communities to satisfy this requirement. However I do not see ANY community that Abigail and her husband are part of. They don't appear to be close knit with anyone in their Catholic community, don't appear to have strong relationships in the children's activities nor anywhere else I can see.

[apple1]

I needed to buy $11 worth of hamburgers because my kids couldn't sit in a freezing house for an another hour while I cooked the food that I did have in my cub board from scratch.

Cub board

... could rank right up there with riffle.

And this person has a law degree?

[NurseNell]

Cub board

... could rank right up there with riffle.

And this person has a law degree?

I've seen several spelling errors and grammatical mistakes in her writings.

[Wolfie]

Cub board

... could rank right up there with riffle.

And this person has a law degree?

I guess she has bears in the kitchen instead of cups?

[lilwriter85]

They make a LOT more money than I assumed with her constant whining about poverty. To qualify for international adoption, they would need to have an income of at least $38K annually, which apparently they are well above.

I always figured if she really IS adopting, that she's so rabidly pro-life she would go through Catholic Charities and convince herself she saved a baby from abortion.

However, she specifically references special needs adoptions and if she were to adopt a WV child (versus looking in other states), the highest adoption subsisdy she could get on a child is $764/month. Last I knew, NYS had the highest subsidy rate but I didn't check to see what it currently is. I *think* it's around $3K/month now. She could easily use CSS, who offers reduced rates for Catholics and a sliding scale fee (though she's above the highest income I've EVER seen on the CSS sliding scales in about six different states) and she could then adopt a special needs newborn with Spence-Chapin, who is really good at advocating for the adoption subsidies for the kids they place.

If she finds a religious based agency, she could talk her way through a homestudy. However, CSS is going to be less likely to fall for it, since CSS is generally NOT conservative and strictly uses MSWs to do their homestudies (versus unlicensed workers who simply have a MSW in the agency sign off on their work). She could find a conservative, "pro-life" adoption agency she could fool EXCEPT they also tend to be extremely Fundie and ant-Catholic.

I'm not digging thorugh WV's specific guidelines. They are going to have a house size requirement. They don't appear to have family size limitations. I don't know what the house size requirements are. In every state I've worked with except IL, we were required to have "enough space" which was more subjective than objective. A bunkbed and not too many siblings in one room handled that one just fine. IL required a window and at least 35sqft per child in the home, though. That social worker showed up with a tape measure but realized our house covered that space requirement without needing to measure it precisely.

What they would have trouble is you MUST require reference letters. It's mandatory for all adoptions, and mandatory for immigration if you adopt internationally as well. They are so isolated and so divisive in their behaviors, I don't know how they would get 3 glowing reference letters. Most Fundies who do this with large families are in Fundie churches and get the minister and several other like-minded families to do it for them. I don't see those interactions and relationships in their lives.

As for being approved for special needs adoptions, they would have to PROVE they could manage the special needs. If they go through the state, then they would have to prove that to the adoption committee representing the child. If they go through a placing agency, then they would have to prove it to the placing agency, not their homestudy agency. If they go international, then they must prove it to both the agency representing the child AND the US government. Because we always adopt special needs, everytime we were matched with a specific child with specific issues, we submitted an addendum to detail exactly how we would meet the specific needs of the child we were pursuing an adoption, versus merely having approval for a host of special needs. Again, most Fundies find enough "resources" and "experts" in their communities to satisfy this requirement. However I do not see ANY community that Abigail and her husband are part of. They don't appear to be close knit with anyone in their Catholic community, don't appear to have strong relationships in the children's activities nor anywhere else I can see.

I forgot about Catholic Charities. I can also see Abigail and Jon going that route for adoption. As for Abigail and her Catholic community, I remember her mentioning somewhere that she did volunteer work with a youth group. There was another posting where she talked about someone giving her a dirty look in Mass. She also talked about being involved with organizations that are mostly run and focus on priests and nuns. She talked about visiting a Francisican monastery in DC last year. My guess is that she has tight connections with priests and nuns, but no so much with other Catholic laypeople. There might be a Catholic Daughters of America group at her parish. I believe her kids are involved in CCD.

[chaotic life]

References need to be able to state that they know you personally, if you have children that they have actively seen you parent your children, what kind of parent you are, and whether they believe you can handle parenting an adopted child.

If you adopt with a "Christian agency" then your minister (or Priest) would give a faith reference. However, the other three must directly speak to your parenting. Nuns and priests who know NOTHING about parenting will make piss poor reeferences for an adoption.

I still don't see quite enough people who know her intimately to be able to give the references she would be required to present to pass an adoption homestudy. Furthermore, if you have ANY doubt on what kind of reference someone will give, you do NOT ask them to give one. The references go to the homestudy worker without you being allowed to read or review them.

A generous worker who has been convinced of your ability to adopt *might* warn you of one bad reference but more than one and mediocre, not even outright bad, and you will not pass a homestudy with them. Once you attempt to get a homestudy and fail, it becomes EXTREMELY hard to shop elsewhere and try to get another one, since one of the first questions you will be asked is whether you have ever failed a homestudy before.

Plus, at her income level, an adoption is going to cost a LOT of money, even sliding scale, even with Catholic Charities. If she goes through the state, it will be WAY harder than private adoption and if she does private, she'll need THOUSANDS for her adoption process. (Figure $1k-$2K for her homestudy, another $3K-$5K for her placing agency fees, at least $1K for a lawyer to finalize the adoption, minimum you're talking about $5-$8K, maximum can run $30K or more.)

[mockingbird]

Was she the one who started a Girl Scout troop for "disadvantaged" children so she could "minister" to them?

I agree it doesn't sound like she has many positive connections in the community. People who give her dirty looks... lol yes.

[Rowan]

I'm just :shock: that she blames her inability to handle or budget money with her Middle-Class upbringing but yet WHAT is she teaching her children? If she thinks she has it rough as an adult based on what she observed around her as a kid, her kids will have it a thousand times worse.

[Koala]

Speaking of the dirty looks she gets - I don't doubt for a min that she gets the occasional look. Lord knows it's deserved if she cuts up irl the way she does online. That said, I think there is either some extreme paranoia or a persecution complex there.

I mean for god's sake. It's the neighbors, the people at church, the people in the grocery....In her mind, EVERYBODY is watching Abigail. She thinks they hate her for having so many kids, and being BFF to the saints, and daughter of mommy Mary. I mean come on lady, they're just not that into you. I can assure you that when I'm at the grocery I just want out of the damn line. I don't give two shits if the lady behind me is prattling on because she thinks the lord jesus himself sent her to the grocery. As long as she leaves me out of it, we're good. :?

[desertvixen]

Was she the one who started a Girl Scout troop for "disadvantaged" children so she could "minister" to them?

She didn't start it but they did go to one.

[lilwriter85]

I'm just :shock: that she blames her inability to handle or budget money with her Middle-Class upbringing but yet WHAT is she teaching her children? If she thinks she has it rough as an adult based on what she observed around her as a kid, her kids will have it a thousand times worse.

I was a bit shocked about her blaming her poor budgeting skills on growing in a middle class or upper middle class upbrining. But stuff like that does happen with some people who came from families like hers. Abigail is really bad with money and her kids aren't learning anything good. I agree those kids will have much worse as adults if A&J don't get their crap together. I wonder if Abigail realizes how good she has it. Some people can't turn to their parents for financial assistance like Abigail and her dad.

[wild little fox]

(Just a brief introduction to myself for new readers. My name is Abigail B. I'm in my second year of a 3 year temporary promise to live out a life of "poverty, chastity, and obedience" as a Discalced Carmelite)

BULL SHIT!

The thing is she hasn't chosen poverty. She has CHOSEN to make her children suffer so she can indulge her own whims and then say "poor me" in one breath and then in the other "look and see how pious I am!"

If SHE wanted to take a vow of poverty etc for three years then SHE should have gone without purchased flowers, music lessons, fencing, etc.