You've got to read it to believe it... Abigail Cries Poor

[lilwriter85]

Does anybody else find it weird that somebody would convert to such extreme Catholicism as an adult?

*FYI i'm Anglican & went to an Anglo-Catholic school.

I was raised Catholic and I'm an atheist now. When I started reading Abigail blog, I found her to be weird. Some of her previous nicknames for the Virgin Mary annoyed me. Even though I will never practice Catholicism again, there are aspects of the religion that I still respect. Most of the Catholic converts that I've met since I was a kid aren't extreme like Abigail. I'm think Abigail's husband Jon came from an extreme Catholic family and that might be why Abigail is so extreme.

[NurseNell]

She lives in Martinsburg, WV. She went to law school at UW Madison. So Smith College and UW Madison, she is very smart. But somehow something happened along the way.

[mockingbird]

I was raised Catholic and I'm an atheist now. When I started reading Abigail blog, I found her to be weird. Some of her previous nicknames for the Virgin Mary annoyed me. Even though I will never practice Catholicism again, there are aspects of the religion that I still respect. Most of the Catholic converts that I've met since I was a kid aren't extreme like Abigail. I'm think Abigail's husband Jon came from an extreme Catholic family and that might be why Abigail is so extreme.

Most of the converts I know are pretty mainstream too. My mom converted, but from Episcopalianism so not a big switch, I think she only did because my dad was/is Catholic and her family wasn't that into church. (A ton of people from our church have told her they thought she was raised Catholic. I'm not sure if that reflects her mainstream views or what. She likes to joke that they should be able to tell that she was a Protestant convert because she actually knows the Bible... lol. The old joke, but she actually had someone tell her she couldn't teach a religion class because they assumed she had grown up Catholic and wouldn't know the Old Testament stories. :? ) I love the Easter Vigil mass and most of the converts I saw there in college were people I knew and didn't come off as extreme.

It's definitely a phenomenon though, especially (I think) with young converts. I have heard priests identify it as a problem. There were only a few what we called "Super Catholic" families at our church growing up and I knew one girl like that at college (one of our first conversations revolved around how a friend and I didn't go to confession often enough :doh: ). She mellowed out a little but still posts anti-gay stuff on her FB. She doesn't delete critical comments, though.

ETA: I just thought of this and added it differently but now I kind-of think of it as a separate issue. I didn't join the youth group at church because it seemed too "weird" and my parents agreed with me. I remember the one big conference was at Steubenville. Many of the people in it were kids I grew up with and they all turned out pretty normal (and the rest of our church was very mainstream on the whole), but I just wonder. There seems to be a dearth of teen/young adult Catholic resources/programs that are actually mainstream. I know the youth group adapted a lot of non-Catholic stuff and it seemed like that was because it was marketed as "trendy". The young adult/singles Catholic program here seems too touchy-feely-relationship-with-Jesus to me, too (I haven't been, just looked up their website out of curiosity because one of my friends mentioned going to it) but that could be because I live in a more conservative area. Kind-of wonder if this is contributing to the young extreme converts, at least.

[NurseNell]

For some reason I thought she was an only child but she has a brother and a sister. Her brother Tad is active in Republican politics. I wonder what her family thinks of her ultra Catholicism? Her mother has a PhD. Her family are all well educated and seem very upper middle class. What's the husband's background? He wasn't a convert?

[miffy]

I'm guessing he was raised Catholic but wasn't very into it:

So I drove through three hours of heavy snow in Cleveland and Buffalo to hit a pre-cana retreat session with my then barely Catholic fiance.

abigails-alcove.blogspot.com.au/2008/06/wedding-anniversary.html

[miffy]

abigails-alcove.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/gearing-up-for-lent.html

Really?

Also I can't find any mention of fasting for lent, apart from her husband giving up coffee. I'm not even Catholic & i've given up meat for the whole time before!!! I would have thought they'd be having 1 meal a day & putting crushed walnut shells in their shoes.

[NurseNell]

abigails-alcove.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/gearing-up-for-lent.html

Really?

Also I can't find any mention of fasting for lent, apart from her husband giving up coffee. I'm not even Catholic & i've given up meat for the whole time before!!! I would have thought they'd be having 1 meal a day & putting crushed walnut shells in their shoes.

Part of that might be she has probably always been either pregnant or nursing during Lent. Pregnant and nursing mothers are not supposed to fast. Also, in recent years the Church doesn't emphasize giving up things as much as performing acts of mercy and charity, of being Christ to others.

[miffy]

Part of that might be she has probably always been either pregnant or nursing during Lent. Pregnant and nursing mothers are not supposed to fast. Also, in recent years the Church doesn't emphasize giving up things as much as performing acts of mercy and charity, of being Christ to others.

Hmm I'll give her a pass on that then. But still, she carries on about her religion so much, I thought she would at least do something.

[NurseNell]

Hmm I'll give her a pass on that then. But still, she carries on about her religion so much, I thought she would at least do something.

She gives up Facebook and blogging. Or at least has in other years.

[August]

Ugh, I would love to go to Smith but can't exactly swing the 50k+ a year. What a waste of a liberal arts education.

And also, who gives their grown "child" a credit card? How do I get on this plan??

Both my parents and my in laws would step in to help us if we were in real poverty.

[Dinorah]

The criticism she received obviously bugged her, since she made various posts lamely attempting to justify her points.

She also seems to be combining some aspects of Catholic extremism with those of Protestant-style fundamentalism (a bit like Anna T does with Judaism). Catholicism is fairly education-oriented, people might send their kids to Catholic schools but not so much homeschool, and there seems to be less of a demonization of women being educated and working.

And Hobby Lobby being a martyr? Oh pleeeez. Right, having to provide your employees with birth control is on the par with being tortured and murdered in some atrocious way for your faith.

[Magdelope]

I think she is trying to rebel against a very comfortable upbringing. Proving herself to be more 'genuine' & 'poor, just like the working class' than the girls she went to school with.

That could very well be true!

I grew up as well-off in a poor area. Made me feel spoiled and a bit outside.

But now, as a student, I bloody well know how to manage the little money I have. Mainly because my parents taught me and then sent me on my way, knowing that I can care for myself.

Poverty doesn't mean what she thinks it means, especially not when she still has her dad "just in case".

[Ava]

:doh:

I was reading someone's comment the other day on being broke vs being poor, and how people often conflate the two. Abigail's a perfect example of that - she may be broke, she may be on the lower end of income for her family size, but she is not poor. Apparently their income is around $58,000 a year, and with 5 kids they are likely one of those much-maligned 47% who don't pay federal income taxes.

I lurk around on personal finance forums a lot, and there are some people who just simply can't not spend money if they have it. They usually end up with tens of thousands of credit card debt, and unable to tell you what they even spent it on. I think she would benefit from the envelopes approach... divvy up the money you need each month for gas, groceries, mortgage, utilities, etc., put it in an envelope marked for that purpose, and then don't touch it unless you're using it for that purpose. Whatever's left, if there is any, can go into the "Abigail's frivolous spending" envelope. And if there isn't any left... well then there isn't any, and you call officially call yourself "poor" then. Feeding your children is a necessity; buying flowers to make yourself happy is not.

I do wonder about her "eco-friendly" electric heaters. All the people I've ever known of who have fully electric heated houses keep them at like 60 in the winter because it's so expensive, or convert them to something that's not electric. My own house has a heat pump with electric backup and I wish it didn't, but there's nothing I can do about it. Oil can be expensive, but is it more expensive? I don't know, and I doubt they truly do either.

[Boltingmadonna]

Thank FSM for FJ. I was so disturbed by that last post on poverty that I couldn't even . .. so then I come over here and you're all on it already. ; )

My one question that hasn't been asked yet: who disconnects their old heating system before they have the new one in place? Because she didn't like the way the pipes looked?? Honey, it's not about having a fabulous kitchen. It's about staying warm. Also I agree that 59 degrees for a few days is not going to kill anyone. I too have lived in old, cold houses. Put a sweater on and you'll be fine.

She went to Smith College?? Oh good grief. I have a friend who works there, and I've visited many times. Not that this is true of all Smith students--but there certainly are quite a few special snowflakes there. If her parents can afford to send her there, she is one of a rather exclusive group.

I don't like the looks of her husband. He reminds me too much of the many obnoxious super-Catholic men in my old outfit. And yes, there is a very strong strand of this fundie-style wackiness among Catholics. It's not your average suburban Catholicism, but there are a lot of Catholics obsessed with suffering and super-piety. Sadly, one way they express themselves is by having a gazillion children. I think Abigail and Mr. Abigail have some mental health issues and are self-medicating with religion. She should trade in her cello for therapy sessions.

[singsingsing]

I think what disturbs me the most about the situation is that Abigail and her husband obviously feed off each other. I used to feel a bit sorry for him, but now I'm convinced he's as crazy as she is. Just look at his comments. He jumps in to 'defend' his wife, and what he says is usually as bizarre and paranoid as the stuff she writes. For such a pious Catholic he seems to have no problem judging and insulting people. I really, really worry about their children. It's not that I think they're in any physical danger, but they're going to have to do a lot of psychological damage when they grow up.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I read some more of her posts.

She clearly has issues.

What happened with her growing up? Clearly, her family had some money, but I'm wondering if there were some major strings/power struggles?

Her entire attitude toward money and responsibility seems to be dysfunctional from my POV. She creates situations where she and the family are struggling - and then goes on rants about pro-choicers who think that people should be prepared for pregnancy, rants about how she relies on G-d for her financial plan, rants about how her indulgences are totally deserved and necessary even while she's taken this vow of poverty, etc. The common thread seems to be that she's not focused AT ALL on realistic planning and managing, but rather seems to view these things as bad. Instead, she struggles, then says that it's just fine to struggle with kids, then panics about being poor to the extent that the kids are cold and hungry, then says that stupid spending for mental health is worth it, and finally ties up her arguments by claiming that she's rejected the worldly view of planning things and is somehow more Godly doing things this way. She doesn't see that it's not about crying "but I DESERVE it!" like a child, but rather about making an actual budget and setting out priorities.

If you have fed the kids and met their basic needs, and there is money left over - sure, do something you like. But hey, I'm not the one into martyrdom or vows of poverty, and I also think that parents have a responsibility to do everything in their power to meet their children's basic needs.

Once again, I'm also wondering if this is one of the big draws of the fundie/pro-life world: this idea that you don't need to plan anything, it's fine if you suck as a parent, and you are simply awesome for the mere fact that you didn't take the birth control pill or abort.

[valsa]

Once again, I'm also wondering if this is one of the big draws of the fundie/pro-life world: this idea that you don't need to plan anything, it's fine if you suck as a parent, and you are simply awesome for the mere fact that you didn't take the birth control pill or abort.

I think you may be on to something here. It must be nice to get praise for just birthing children for Jesus, instead of, you know, parenting them well, feeding them healthy meals, making sure they're properly educated, ensuring they have a warm home and aren't worried where their next meal is coming from, etc.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I think you may be on to something here. It must be nice to get praise for just birthing children for Jesus, instead of, you know, parenting them well, feeding them healthy meals, making sure they're properly educated, ensuring they have a warm home and aren't worried where their next meal is coming from, etc.

I got this idea from the "Red state , Blue State" article as well. Growing up, my parents and most of the people around me wouldn't make a big deal about sex being sinful - but a teen pregnancy would have been viewed as a disaster. I attended a large high school with 2,500, many of whom were sexually active, but only knew of ONE student during my 4 years there who had a baby before graduation. I can imagine that a teen who did get pregnant in this sort of environment would find it lonely and judgmental - nobody would call her a slut, but there would be plenty of whispers about her being really young, wondering how she would manage and speculating that she may have ruined her life. A more evangelical/fundie-lite community, filled with younger single parents, which embraces these women, tells them that they made an awesome decision to have their babies and reassures them that they can just trust Jesus could seem much more attractive. As someone who is pro-choice, I think we need to recognize this dynamic and realize that this might be motivating some pro-lifers.

[Talitha Cumi]

I was thinking that as well. If she doesn't have much time, why not write a message with a simple design on a piece of paper and let her daughter color it? She would get the same "piece of faith" out of it, and have more fun :?

If she doesn't have time to spend an hour (or even 30 min) with her kid, she is not a good mother.

[Talitha Cumi]

So, am I little touchy about her whining while living here? Yea, you don't even want to go there. If she can afford nice coats and $90/month for cellos, she's not in real poverty. Maybe my US standards, she's in the poverty level with income, but Abigail is poor, not in genuine poverty.

Ebay. Cellos for $150 with free shipping. For less than the cost of 2 months rental.

What the ever-living fuck.

[Talitha Cumi]

Also I can't find any mention of fasting for lent, apart from her husband giving up coffee. I'm not even Catholic & i've given up meat for the whole time before!!! I would have thought they'd be having 1 meal a day & putting crushed walnut shells in their shoes.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[GeoBQn]

abigails-alcove.blogspot.com/2013/01/poverty-babies-and-march-for-life.html

I feel in my soul that there are abortions happening in America within married couples because they are afraid that having baby number three, baby number four, or baby number five is going to make them less rich than they are currently.

I think as Catholics, we've done a great job talking about the morality of life starting at conception.

I've read many inspiring posts talking about the Italian saying "every baby comes with a loaf of bread under his arm."

What I haven't heard someone write about yet --is that even if you're not perfect with your money management as the parent of a larger than average American family--that its not the end of the world. The bad days of feeling "poor", really aren't that bad. God is real. God helps us follow his will.

The change to becoming a better money manger is gradual and sometimes uneven, like all spiritual growth.

Yet its not that hard. It's not that embarrassing. And its really, really worth the effort.

In the 1920's, my great-grandmother found out she was pregnant. She and my great-grandfather were immigrants and poor. She had four children already. She also had recently had a surgery (likely an appendectomy) that ended up having complications, and she was under doctor's orders not to have another baby or it might kill her.

She was a pragmatist, always thinking of what was best for her family. She was envisioning a future in which she either survived the pregnancy and sunk the family's precarious financial situation with another mouth to feed, or she didn't survive and left her family motherless. Either way, she decided that what was best for her family was for her to immediately head off to the nearest illegal abortion provider. The only reason she didn't end up having it was because my great-grandfather found out what she was planning, tracked her down, and literally dragged her home. I imagine he did this out of concern for her safety since, again, abortion was illegal.

My great-grandmother survived the pregnancy and gave birth to my great-aunt. They were able to eventually pull themselves up to middle class thanks to my great-grandfather's sound business sense, my great-grandmother's thriftiness, and everybody in the family working part-time from the age of 12 and full-time at the age of 16. Everything eventually worked out, but if one factor had been different, the outcome could have been so much worse.

When women consider or have abortions for financial reasons, it is NOT out of a fear that they will be "less rich." It's an act of survival and preservation.

[prairiemuffin]

Oh, Abigail.

I'm not going to reiterate what many have said (better than I) about her whack-ass definition of "poverty". But what really chaps my hide about parents like this is that they never stop and think what their stupid financial choices are doing to their children.

I grew up in a home that was upper middle-class, until I got to high school, where things went to hell pretty quickly. But my parent didn't share that with my siblings or me, choosing to go along and give us our wants without any discussions regarding being financially responsible, budgeting, saving, etc. By the time I was halfway through college I got a pretty serious bitch-slap of reality, and realized quickly that I simply didn't have the skill-set to be financially responsible. So I had to learn the hard way, and some of the mistakes I made stuck around to haunt me long term (credit report, anyone?). While my upbringing was wonderful in many ways, I really wish I had had a better role model for money.

So, Abigail, way to go. Not only are you screwing yourself, you're screwing up your kids for the long haul, too.

[Dinorah]

abigails-alcove.blogspot.com/2013/01/poverty-babies-and-march-for-life.html

In the 1920's, my great-grandmother found out she was pregnant. She and my great-grandfather were immigrants and poor. She had four children already. She also had recently had a surgery (likely an appendectomy) that ended up having complications, and she was under doctor's orders not to have another baby or it might kill her.

She was a pragmatist, always thinking of what was best for her family. She was envisioning a future in which she either survived the pregnancy and sunk the family's precarious financial situation with another mouth to feed, or she didn't survive and left her family motherless. Either way, she decided that what was best for her family was for her to immediately head off to the nearest illegal abortion provider. The only reason she didn't end up having it was because my great-grandfather found out what she was planning, tracked her down, and literally dragged her home. I imagine he did this out of concern for her safety since, again, abortion was illegal.

My great-grandmother survived the pregnancy and gave birth to my great-aunt. They were able to eventually pull themselves up to middle class thanks to my great-grandfather's sound business sense, my great-grandmother's thriftiness, and everybody in the family working part-time from the age of 12 and full-time at the age of 16. Everything eventually worked out, but if one factor had been different, the outcome could have been so much worse.

When women consider or have abortions for financial reasons, it is NOT out of a fear that they will be "less rich." It's an act of survival and preservation.

[lilwriter85]

Most of the converts I know are pretty mainstream too. My mom converted, but from Episcopalianism so not a big switch, I think she only did because my dad was/is Catholic and her family wasn't that into church. (A ton of people from our church have told her they thought she was raised Catholic. I'm not sure if that reflects her mainstream views or what. She likes to joke that they should be able to tell that she was a Protestant convert because she actually knows the Bible... lol. The old joke, but she actually had someone tell her she couldn't teach a religion class because they assumed she had grown up Catholic and wouldn't know the Old Testament stories. :? ) I love the Easter Vigil mass and most of the converts I saw there in college were people I knew and didn't come off as extreme.

It's definitely a phenomenon though, especially (I think) with young converts. I have heard priests identify it as a problem. There were only a few what we called "Super Catholic" families at our church growing up and I knew one girl like that at college (one of our first conversations revolved around how a friend and I didn't go to confession often enough :doh: ). She mellowed out a little but still posts anti-gay stuff on her FB. She doesn't delete critical comments, though.

ETA: I just thought of this and added it differently but now I kind-of think of it as a separate issue. I didn't join the youth group at church because it seemed too "weird" and my parents agreed with me. I remember the one big conference was at Steubenville. Many of the people in it were kids I grew up with and they all turned out pretty normal (and the rest of our church was very mainstream on the whole), but I just wonder. There seems to be a dearth of teen/young adult Catholic resources/programs that are actually mainstream. I know the youth group adapted a lot of non-Catholic stuff and it seemed like that was because it was marketed as "trendy". The young adult/singles Catholic program here seems too touchy-feely-relationship-with-Jesus to me, too (I haven't been, just looked up their website out of curiosity because one of my friends mentioned going to it) but that could be because I live in a more conservative area. Kind-of wonder if this is contributing to the young extreme converts, at least.

I think the Super Catholic type fundie families are a bit rare in some parishes. There was one at the parish I attended with my family. The couple had 7 kids and the mom believed in staying home, but there were a few times she worked seasonal jobs at a ski area to get the family ahead once in awhile. Both of the parents in this family came from Catholic families, but none of their relatives were as extreme as them. The wife was one of the teachers in my confirmation class for awhile and she was my least favorite one. Later on, I found out that most students and even a couple of the other confirmation teachers thought she was too extreme. My aunt has told me about Super Catholic families at her parish in Colorado Springs. These are large families that homeschool and very strict. My maternal grandmother had various subscriptions to Catholic magazines. I remember in 2001 or 2002 reading about Catholic homeschooling in one of her magazines. One of the families profiled had 9 kids. In 2005, I read a blog about Catholic family in Kentucky. They had 11 kids and homeschooled. They banned most TV shows and the kids didn't listen to secular music. The family was pretty social though. The kids were involved in parish youth groups and a couple of the sons played on a parish basketball team that competed against other parish teams. The blog was written mostly by the mother and it was taken down later on.

When it came to parish youth groups I never joined any of them. The confirmation program at the parish I went to was a two year program. It took place during my freshman and sophomore years of high school. I also had other school activities going on. After I got confirmed, some of my friends tried to get me join the parish youth group. I went to a couple of events with friends but I never joined. One of the events was a LifeTeen Mass. The youth group also used to attend a lot of Pam Stenzel events. Pam is a motivational Catholic speaker who focuses on sexual topics. Our confirmation class watched some of her videos and she is very annoying. There was no way I would go and see her in person. The youth group also went to the Steubenville conference and for a few years they went to Catholic youth conference in Tuscon. I can't remember the name of the Tuscon event.