Rant of Rage: People Can't be Racist Against Whites

[Boogalou]

Yes, I found out there was when I was researching my heritage for a school history project. There were many variations, and sadly, this stuck to me the most! Are you from Canada? Is that ok for me to ask? Is that considered the acceptable proper way to spell Mi'kmaq?

Yes, I'm from Canada, but from Ontario so I am a lot more familiar with Aboriginal groups around here than from the East Coast. The name has a bunch of variations so I don't think there is one absolute 100% way to spell it, but right now Mi'kmaq is considered better, I think.

[MyNameIsJonas]

Here's what I mean by "It's not about (the general) you:

http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/208 ... and-listen

Let’s be Clear on This: Shut up and Listen

We need to clear this up once and for all. I continue to see this phrased used, misused and misunderstood. Let’s make sure we are all clear on what it does and does not mean.

It does NOT mean: You, a white person, should never talk with a Black person ever on any topic. This phrase is VERY specific. It is not about EVERY topic.

It does NOT mean: You, a white person, should not ever talk about racism. You SHOULD talk about it. However, there is a time and a place.

It does NOT mean: You, a white person should not join in on a conversation on any topic ever if Black people are talking.

What it DOES mean: When PoC are talking about race, their experiences BEING PoC or how things affect their lives BECAUSE they are PoC, you a white person, should shut up and listen. This is not an arbirary term that should be thrown around the way that it is. Yesterday I saw a white person tell another white person that they were not to talk about racism TO A WHITE PERSON because it was their job to soley “Shut up and listen.â€

NO! NO! NO!

How can you collect your people when they are acting up if you can’t talk about racism? This makes no sense. It has EVERYTHING to do with the GROUP. Everything.

I am currently talking about race but where being an “Ally†is concerned, it is important to note that the “Shut up and listen†phrase is and should be used in other areas. For example, If two Trans People are talking about their experiences BEING Trans People, I have NO BUSINESS jumping in with my opinion on the subject. It has nothing to do with what I do or don’t know about the subject. It has nothing to do with the fact that I agree with every single thing they say or disagree with every single thing they say. It has EVERYTHING to do with me jumping into a conversation where my perspective, no matter how inline I THINK it is with theirs, is different.

It is not about “Agreement.†It is about perspective. I can’t know what it is like to be a Trans Person. I CAN NOT KNOW. No matter what I do know, what I think I know, I can’t TRULY know. This is why the “Shut up and listen†would be an appropriate phrase for someone to use on me in this situation.

Now, where I SHOULD speak up is this: Straight cis person saying shitty things or even saying incorrect things not meaning to be shitty, I MUST SPEAK UP. If I am ever to call myself an ally, this is the moment that I must speak up.

Comparing oppression is unacceptable and incorrect. When it comes to “Allies†however, there is no compression. An Ally has the SAME RULES no matter the group they ally for. NO MATTER THE GROUP. The rules you have for being an ally for racial justice are the EXACT rules that I have for being an ally to the LGBTQ Community.

An Ally is an Ally is an Ally. Period.

[theologygeek]

She asks if you are suffering prejudice and discrimination today because of your Italian heritage and that's your response? So I guess the answer is no then. And I seriously hope you are not equating a one-time racial slur to a lifetime of being subjected to institutionalized racism. .

It wasn't a "one time racial slur" by any means. I just gave one example. I get a lot of racial slurs in the volunteer work that I do, but I don't spend my life complaining about it. Instead of wasting time on a website debating who has it worse, go out into your community and help be the change you want to happen.

[Anxious Girl]

Boogalu, I want to visit Canada so bad! Ever since I was little, I wanted to learn French and Italian. My great-aunt lives in Montreal, and wants me to visit her! Maybe once I save up my $, I can go and learn myself a little French while I'm there visiting her... 8-) Ontario's in central Canada, right?

edit: theologygeek, why does only MyNameIsJonas have to be the change? Shouldn't we all be the change that we want to see?

[Guest Anonymous]

It wasn't a "one time racial slur" by any means. I just gave one example. I get a lot of racial slurs in the volunteer work that I do, but I don't spend my life complaining about it. Instead of wasting time on a website debating who has it worse, go out into your community and help be the change you want to happen.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. I can, and do, engage in both. I would never assume that you don't volunteer or contribute to your community because you post here, I'm not sure why you seem to be assuming that about others.

**ETA: And I also disagree with your assertion that this debate is about "who has it worse." There are people who have posted and said that the conversation has been valuable to them, it has been valuable to me. There's knowledge and different perspectives to be had, and even though I very much disagree with what some people have said, I think it's productive to have the conversation.

[MyNameIsJonas]

It wasn't a "one time racial slur" by any means. I just gave one example. I get a lot of racial slurs in the volunteer work that I do, but I don't spend my life complaining about it. Instead of wasting time on a website debating who has it worse, go out into your community and help be the change you want to happen.

:lol: :clap: omfg someone finally said it! Where's my "Racism 101" bingo card?

Are you serious? Are you honestly serious? You must have read the Racist Derailment Guide this morning:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/04/08 ... r-dummies/

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/2 ... -argument/

http://casual-isms.tumblr.com/post/3013 ... in-yo-folk

Derail, derail, derail. Next you're going to tell me that you don't like my tone, right?

[theologygeek]

:lol: :clap: omfg someone finally said it! Where's my "Racism 101" bingo card?

Are you serious? Are you honestly serious? You must have read the Racist Derailment Guide this morning:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/04/08 ... r-dummies/

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/2 ... -argument/

http://casual-isms.tumblr.com/post/3013 ... in-yo-folk

Derail, derail, derail. Next you're going to tell me that you don't like my tone, right?

I have no patience for whining. People have told you that everyone had it bad. They have also told you that they have experienced racial slurs, denial of employment, etc, yet you are still carrying on about how it's not as bad. There is no derailing. You've turned it into a pissing contest. It happens all the time in internet land. People spend hours on the computer complaining, and doing nothing in rl to solve the problems they are complaining about.

[Anxious Girl]

I have no patience for whining. People have told you that everyone had it bad. They have also told you that they have experienced racial slurs, denial of employment, etc, yet you are still carrying on about how it's not as bad. There is no derailing. You've turned it into a pissing contest. It happens all the time in internet land. People spend hours on the computer complaining, and doing nothing in rl to solve the problems they are complaining about.

Aren't you doing that, too, when you talk about how there are cetain exceptions to black people getting employed because there might not be enough diversity in a company/job and white people being denied because there's too many white people? Are you for real?

[MyNameIsJonas]

I have no patience for whining. People have told you that everyone had it bad. They have also told you that they have experienced racial slurs, denial of employment, etc, yet you are still carrying on about how it's not as bad. There is no derailing. You've turned it into a pissing contest. It happens all the time in internet land. People spend hours on the computer complaining, and doing nothing in rl to solve the problems they are complaining about.

Where have I whined in this thread? Because you've been doing quite a bit yourself. I simply explained how everyone else's experiences are different and really not comparable to institutionalized racism in this country. I never said it wasn't bad. It's also funny that you seem to know what exactly I do for my community.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have no patience for whining. People have told you that everyone had it bad. They have also told you that they have experienced racial slurs, denial of employment, etc, yet you are still carrying on about how it's not as bad. There is no derailing. You've turned it into a pissing contest. It happens all the time in internet land. People spend hours on the computer complaining, and doing nothing in rl to solve the problems they are complaining about.

White people in the United States do not experience institutional racism. White people in the United States do have white privilege. Frankly, I am astonished that you seem to be saying that white people as a demographic have it just as bad as people of color as a demographic. That is not true. Look at poverty rates, look at college admissions, look at the ratio of white CEOs to black CEOs, look at rates of incarceration.

I am not invalidating anything that an individual has experienced, but culturally and as a society institutionalized racism is a huge and very real problem in the United States and white people are not the ones it affects.

And again - you have no idea that people are not working in real life to solve problems. You have no way of knowing that, and you have over 1600 posts yourself. By your logic, you should be spending every waking moment trying to put an end to patriarchy, not complaining about it here.

[theologygeek]

Aren't you doing that, too, when you talk about how there are cetain exceptions to black people getting employed because there might not be enough diversity in a company/job and white people being denied because there's too many white people? Are you for real?

Stating examples is different from telling each person who disagreed that someone else has it worse and they need empathy. I'm not complaining that I experience racial slurs in the volunteer work that I do. It is what it is. Nor am I complaining that my friend's son was not accepted into the magnet school. I pay for his private school and he is thriving. People giving examples is not the same as incessant whining.

[Anxious Girl]

What are you talking about, theologygeek? What are my examples? Seriously, I don't understand you. :think: Are my examples just explanations and MyNameIsJonas's just whining, is that what you're saying? Why is that?

[MyNameIsJonas]

Stating examples is different from telling each person who disagreed that someone else has it worse and they need empathy. I'm not complaining that I experience racial slurs in the volunteer work that I do. It is what it is. Nor am I complaining that my friend's son was not accepted into the magnet school. I pay for his private school and he is thriving. People giving examples is not the same as incessant whining.

And again, where exactly have I whined? And about what?

[theologygeek]

White people in the United States do not experience institutional racism. White people in the United States do have white privilege. Frankly, I am astonished that you seem to be saying that white people as a demographic have it just as bad as people of color as a demographic. .

Where did I say that whites have it just as bad? I and others have said that prejudice happens to everyone, and it's all bad. But that's not even accepted. It keeps getting responded with a million variations of "theirs is worse!" That is the incessant whining and pissing contest. I have to get up in five hours to get ready for work and am going to bed.

[theologygeek]

What are you talking about, theologygeek? What are my examples? Seriously, I don't understand you. :think: Are my examples just explanations and MyNameIsJonas's just whining, is that what you're saying? Why is that?

"Stating examples" didn't have anything to do with you, and I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[Guest Anonymous]

Where did I say that whites have it just as bad? I and others have said that prejudice happens to everyone, and it's all bad. But that's not even accepted. It keeps getting responded with a million variations of "theirs is worse!" That is the incessant whining and pissing contest. I have to get up in five hours to get ready for work and am going to bed.

It is all bad. But I think the responses are because a conversation about racism took the turn of white people telling stories about how people of color were mean to them. That's like a conversation about sexism getting the "what about the men?" treatment.

MyNameIsJonas keeps saying individual instances of prejudice are not the same thing because it's not the same thing. It seemed to me (and apparently to others) that you were saying that white people have it just as bad. If that's not your point then okay.

A lot of people don't believe that racism is a problem (or more of a problem) for people of color and that's why I get my back up when it seems that someone is taking that line.

As for "whining and pissing contest" I don't see it. It's a debate, and people are disagreeing. If any one of us is whining then we all are.

I still think it is unfair of you to accuse people of complaining on the internet instead of engaging in activism when you have no idea what people do when they aren't here.

[theologygeek]

And just because it isn't as bad doesn't mean it needs to be ignored. Wouldn't it be better if it just didn't happen no matter what shade of skin you had?

Exactly. And on that note, now I am really going to bed. lol I have liked you since that time you gave me permission to eat more eggs, and think you have done a great job in this thread.

[OkToBeTakei]

It is all bad. But I think the responses are because a conversation about racism took the turn of white people telling stories about how people of color were mean to them. That's like a conversation about sexism getting the "what about the men?" treatment.

MyNameIsJonas keeps saying individual instances of prejudice are not the same thing because it's not the same thing. It seemed to me (and apparently to others) that you were saying that white people have it just as bad. If that's not your point then okay.

A lot of people don't believe that racism is a problem (or more of a problem) for people of color and that's why I get my back up when it seems that someone is taking that line.

As for "whining and pissing contest" I don't see it. It's a debate, and people are disagreeing. If any one of us is whining then we all are.

I still think it is unfair of you to accuse people of complaining on the internet instead of engaging in activism when you have no idea what people do when they aren't here.

The discussion was not about prejudice. I thought that was cleared up on page1 ?

To the second bolded. Well that, really.

Quite a few people myself included have mentioned that investing your own experience in a debate such as this does not really further a position. I read what the poster said about their own experience and their own life being the framework from which you base your opinion. This is very true. But if we all continue to look at the rest of the world through our own particular type of specs you only learn, to continue to see it that way.

I'm as guilty as others at times of posting and trying to strengthen my stance via my own experience. But I do try not to. A recent example would be I think anti/pro vax antibiotic I think. One of them. I could have and nearly did post a very compelling true, personal experience regarding my child which probably would have made my view clearer and would have resulted in understanding/ sympathy. I thought about it, decided not to, because everybody was doing the same and trying to validate their reasoning based on exactly the same thing. It would not have furthered the debate. Which was very interesting and made me look at many different aspects geographical/financial that had not occurred to me before.

I saw in another thread somebody say that everybody wants to 'win' the argument. This is true also at times. Bit stupid, but true.

Rambling a bit here, I think my point is that investing an experience in this topic is not going to change it. It is what it is. Education may change it. It certainly has made me think.

All the above comes with a disclaimer that I generally talk shite. Especially when tired after work and drinking gin :D But I know what I mean (sometimes.) Even if nobody else does.

ETA no idea how to unbold the first part of quote, I was not referencing it.

[BlueChair]

It wasn't a "one time racial slur" by any means. I just gave one example. I get a lot of racial slurs in the volunteer work that I do, but I don't spend my life complaining about it. Instead of wasting time on a website debating who has it worse, go out into your community and help be the change you want to happen.

I'm a social worker, so .... :roll:

As far as these discussions being a waste of time and your thought that we should all be doing instead of talking, these issues don't go away without a lot of conversation. Open discussion challenges comfortable beliefs, brings about understanding, and leads to healing. You don't get to 'solve racism' simply by being a good community volunteer.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Boogalu, I want to visit Canada so bad! Ever since I was little, I wanted to learn French and Italian. My great-aunt lives in Montreal, and wants me to visit her! Maybe once I save up my $, I can go and learn myself a little French while I'm there visiting her... 8-) Ontario's in central Canada, right?

edit: theologygeek, why does only MyNameIsJonas have to be the change? Shouldn't we all be the change that we want to see?

I'm not sure what you mean be central Canada, it's not a term we use...but Ontario seems pretty east to me. Very easy to get to from New Jersey, as I see you are from there. But if you want to go to Montreal, that's in Quebec...Even more east though :) You don't actually need to learn French to go there, but you can certainly try while you're there, if you want. Your great aunt can probably help you, since you can't possibly live there and not know any French.

[MyNameIsJonas]

I'm a social worker, so .... :roll:

As far as these discussions being a waste of time and your thought that we should all be doing instead of talking, these issues don't go away without a lot of conversation. Open discussion challenges comfortable beliefs, brings about understanding, and leads to healing. You don't get to 'solve racism' simply by being a good community volunteer.

I just got back from my volunteer shift at a community center daycare for low-income families. How's that for being the change? ;)

As for discussion, hell yes it's necessary. The only people who don't want to talk about racism are scared of being called out for their bullshit.

[Esther]

Seriously, the Italian, Irish, Slavic peoples etc had it hard when they first came to the US - in part because they were not seen as wholly "white" by the Anglo-Saxons in power. But let's get real here. These people were not forcibly brought over shackled together on slave ships. They didn't live in chattel slavery, considered little more than property, for generations. They weren't systematically excluded from well, anything in anything NEAR the way black people were. Denying that African-Americans suffer institutionalized racism to this very day is BS.

I am white. I lived in the US for two years on a student visa, and I realize full well that, though a foreigner, the fact that I was a white person made me significantly less "suspicious" in a NUMBER of contexts than had I been a nonwhite American citizen. That's fucked up.

White privilege has nothing to do with whether your own personal ancestors owned slaves or not. I can assure you mine were farmers in a shitty and disadvantaged part of Europe and probably didn't even own their own farms, let alone other humans. But that's not the point. White privilege is a real thing because institutionalized, oftentimes latent, racism against nonwhites is, at least in the US but no doubt in other places too, a real thing, and I think denying that is truly ignorant.

[shesinsane]

Today the US Supreme Court will review Fisher v. University of Texas, where a potential student claimed she wasn't accepted to the school because she was white, while minorities with lower grades and fewer activities got in.

Kagan worked on this when she was in the Justice Department, so she won't be ruling. If the court is tied 4-4, the lower court's ruling stands, upholding the affiramative action program.

nytimes.com/2012/10/11/us/a-changed-court-revisits-affirmative-action-in-college-admissions.html?_r=0

[justlurking]

Today the US Supreme Court will review Fisher v. University of Texas, where a potential student claimed she wasn't accepted to the school because she was white, while minorities with lower grades and fewer activities got in.

Kagan worked on this when she was in the Justice Department, so she won't be ruling. If the court is tied 4-4, the lower court's ruling stands, upholding the affiramative action program.

nytimes.com/2012/10/11/us/a-changed-court-revisits-affirmative-action-in-college-admissions.html?_r=0

Interesting...I wonder if she'll devote as much energy protesting white students who had lower grades and fewer activites who were admitted over her---which I'm sure she will find many examples of she only cared to question.

[emmiedahl]

Interesting...I wonder if she'll devote as much energy protesting white students who had lower grades and fewer activites who were admitted over her---which I'm sure she will find many examples of she only cared to question.

The school acknowledges that race is a factor in some admissions, which is why the case is so controversial. So it is not entirely in the girl's head. However, it appears that she was not a stellar student. So it is not like a straight-A student was denied a spot that was given instead to a mediocre student of another race... more like she is a mediocre student and has no lack of privilege that might be to blame, while another student who is also mediocre has mitigating factors. I listened to a looooong discussion of this on NPR while in traffic.

As for anecdata, I find it helpful in some cases. If someone had said that white people never have negative experiences related to race, then the anecdata presented here would be useful. And I would have some anecdata of my own on that topic. But the issue, as far as I can tell, is more that white people do not suffer vast, institutional lack of privilege based on race.

I love these discussions because honestly, this is where the internet ROCKS. You rarely can have these discussions in person.