Rant of Rage: People Can't be Racist Against Whites

[emmiedahl]

There are different types of privilege. Just because you lack economic privilege, it does not mean you can understand what it is like to lack racial privilege.

I definitely lack economic privilege and I have seen more economically privileged minorities get preference for scholarships and certain government programs. But I don't see that as a reason to be bitter or to act like my lot is worse than someone else's. In the US we are just coming to terms with the concept that some people are royally screwed, and we are just beginning to take tiny, insufficient steps to change it. I am okay if more pressing types of privilege like race are addressed first. Hopefully my grandchildren will enter adulthood in a country where they have an easier time of things. Where people who lack resources are helped regardless of the reason for their lack.

edited to be more clear.

[MyNameIsJonas]

I fully acknowledge, though I have no way of personally understanding (since I'm Caucasian) (passive aggressive, much?) , that racism against dark-skinned (what.) people happens.

I know that not everyone is offended but some identifying terms, but “Caucasian†is actually pretty racist itself. (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... n-ancestry) This is not to say that people who identify as Caucasian are racist-it’s just important to know the history of how you’re identifying yourself. I always identify as black (American), not African American. Why? Because I may have African ancestry but it has been diluted with other races and cultures. I’m black, and I don’t find it offensive to referred to as such.

I've seen it happen and I find it repulsive and I counter it whenever I can (because arguing with stupid is futile). I sympathize. I even empathize in my heart, though my empathy is usually rejected because "how could I know?" I accept that. I even, in my not-a-person-of-color way understand that. I've had experiences where I've been rejected or looked down on for some unknown reason, so I believe I *do* have at least a legitimate shred of sympathy.

(Sympathy and understanding are two different things. Boyfriend Jonas gets it when I talk about race, but he doesn’t get it. He probably won’t ever get it and I hope he doesn’t have to. For you to make out like every POC is diminishing you because you’re white is quite frankly ridiculous. If you really had any sympathy you wouldn’t be trying to garner some yourself by saying “Waah! All the mean brown people are trying to diminish my experience as a person in a position of social power!â€)

I feel positively ashamed at the way Christianity (at least some strains of it) has legitimized and even institutionalized putting anyone for any reason into a defensive, socially inferior role. It pisses me off that it still happens today (though some might argue that my righteous indignation is nothing but a talking head because I'm white and therefore haven't experienced racism first-hand). (Here you go again. True allies don’t continue to bring up how they’ve been silenced by POC when talking about racial issues. That’s the problem- some allies always want to talk over POCs, not listen, and then get angry when their opinions are dismissed.)

I get it. I do. and I'm actually with you.

.... and I'm also tired of taking lumps because my skin is fair (my forebears were Ohioans and they opposed slavery from the outset, so that's not in my history).

(Okay, so even if I was still following this bullshit, I’ve stopped now. Poor you, having to suffer so much because you’re white. Also, just because your ancestors opposed slavery and discrimination doesn’t mean that they (and you) didn’t benefit from the system put in place because of it. Were they actively trying to stop it? Again, this disclaimer that your ancestors opposed slavery doesn’t absolve you from racist behavior.

I get it!!! I do!!! Black folks have been treated abysmally in the US!!! (Eleventy!!!!! I get it! I get it! The past sucked for you guys, but just get over it right? My sympathy should be enough!!11!!1) I don't justify or condone a single instance of it. it was and is today still beyond horrible!!! I also get that i don't completely understand (though I was raised in an abusive family, so in a way i do know what it is to be targeted for no good reason - but I also know, based on previous conversations and relationships, that some persons of color don't consider that experience to be enough to identify with racism).

(I am very, very, sorry that you were abused and raised by an abusive family. No one deserves to go through that, especially as a child. But comparing childhood abuse to racism is comparing apples and oranges. You (hopefully) escaped your abusive situation. You may have emotional and physical scars that even if they can’t be healed, can be soothed with time and help. I have skin that I cannot take off at the end of the day and forget about. This is forever. I love being black, don’t get me wrong, but I can’t leave it behind if I want to. Abuse towards myself and other POCs is centuries in the making.)

so I go into a McDonalds and the order-taker turns her head when I approach the counter. The one who gave me my food turned her back while sliding the tray my way. The customer behind me was seated first in a restaurant even though he said, "she was here first." I had my lunch in my hand while starting my break at work (the lunch was on a plate, so it was clear that it was my lunch) and a customer asked me a question. He then proceeded to ask a couple more questions whose answers were easy to determine himself if he would have read the product labels, which is all I did. I went to get my drink and purse and he found me again (and there were other, obvious employees working) and had to ask another question about the ingredients in a certain juice. I asked a cashier to page customer service to answer his questions.

(I have no clue what you’re saying here. Was the guy black or some other POC? Maybe he thought you worked there?)

Or how 'bout the time I had what I thought was a friendly conversation with another family at Toys R Us and we discussed what we were buying and I said that I needed crayons but hadn't run across that section. A man in this family said, "oh, they're far away, they've over in that corner over there." I didn't believe him, but I had Christmas shopping to do and thought I'd look around, anyhow - and sure enough in that corner no crayons were found. When that family and I met again, I asked where he'd found his crayons and the woman said, "did you send her on a goose chase?" .... and then there's the "slow-down" when you're trying to get some place and *huh* a person just then happens to go into a reverie and start walking very slowly right in front of you where you can't pass them. Or the having to ask a sales clerk a bazillion questions about a product. "What kind of fabric is this?" "Where was it made?" "Is it this year?" "Is it last year?" "How many people wear this?" "Do supermodels wear this?" ""When did they wear it?" "What magazines did they wear it in?"

(Yeah, a few more incoherent tangents.)

Like I said, though I'm sympathetic and I'm fine when my daughters date non-Caucasian men..... I'm tired of taking the freaking lumps for things I didn't do.

(And who’s saying you’re oppressing anyone? Guilty, much? I don’t blame modern white people for slavery, Jim Crow, or discrimination. I know 98% of them had nothing to do with that. But I do give a major side eye when people refuse to look at how the system in unevenly balanced in their favor and then cry about “the race card†when someone brings it up. And you’re “fine†when your daughters date interracially? It’s not about you, the same way it wasn’t about my parents or my boyfriend’s parents.)

Lena Johnson's, It's the Little Things is a good read about this mutual frustration- and addresses things like the slow-down and hair-shaking (an annoying white women's gesture)... the little things.

(I’ve read this book, and it’s ill-informed, vague, divisive, and full of negative stereotypes. Besides which, you can’t expect one woman who wrote a book to be a voice for what a whole community finds offensive or annoying.)

My comments in pink.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Poor is poor no mater how you look at it. Its hard to get a job regardless of your race if you are poor. Its hard to get an education if you are poor. Its hard to get anything in this country if you are poor. People look down on the poor. There is no privilege in the US to being a poor white person. You are still poor. You are still seen as lazy. You are still seen as being below others. Sometimes you are seen as being below other races because you are white and should have it all together because of your race.

You dont know what its like to be poor white trash unless you live it. You also dont know how hard it is to get out of that status unless you try to climb out. I can tell you that I qualify for the same federal financial aid as others of different races. I dont qualify nearly as many scholarships because of my race. I dont consider that to be a privilege.

Sure. But there's people who are every bit as poor AND aren't white and can't ever "pass." That's the extra dimension.

Obviously when both people are poor, their being poor (and so the economic discrimination) is the number one thing that's relevant.

But it doesn't get rid of racism and majority privilege, which still exists.

To put it another way, imagine some fabulous dream world where you and the other guy both get as lucky as possible and are millionaires. You blend in. That's it. You CAN, if you want, hide your past.

He can't. In one dimension, he's still "Other."

Edit to add: Yeah, I will admit though the "oh but you SHOULD be better than them!!!" thing aimed at majority people (meaning white in the US, but certainly not that everywhere) is an extra barb that comes from racism too, ironically(?) not the group you're IN.

Same thing happens with misogyny though too, there's various kinds of harm that various non-conforming-to-stereotype men (the socially favored group) suffer as a result of misogyny. Thing is, is all part and parcel of the same "-ism", which is just another reason why we need to fight against the "-isms."

[DarkAnts]

Sure. But there's people who are every bit as poor AND aren't white and can't ever "pass." That's the extra dimension.

Obviously when both people are poor, their being poor (and so the economic discrimination) is the number one thing that's relevant.

But it doesn't get rid of racism and majority privilege, which still exists.

To put it another way, imagine some fabulous dream world where you and the other guy both get as lucky as possible and are millionaires. You blend in. That's it. You CAN, if you want, hide your past.

He can't. In one dimension, he's still "Other."

Edit to add: Yeah, I will admit though the "oh but you SHOULD be better than them!!!" thing aimed at majority people (meaning white in the US, but certainly not that everywhere) is an extra barb that comes from racism too, ironically(?) not the group you're IN.

Same thing happens with misogyny though too, there's various kinds of harm that various non-conforming-to-stereotype men (the socially favored group) suffer as a result of misogyny. Thing is, is all part and parcel of the same "-ism", which is just another reason why we need to fight against the "-isms."

Spoken like someone who has never been in that situation before.

[luckystone]

Disagree completely with the OP. This only seems to be referring to the USA and is very narrow - that is not what racism is about at all. It can be directed at any race to any race in any culture and while there isn't really institutionalised racism against white people for being white in western society, it occurs in others and with individuals.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Spoken like someone who has never been in that situation before.

Same back atcha.

[MyNameIsJonas]

Study done last year on black/white scholarship recipients (there's info on Pell Grants, too):

http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/09/ ... money.html

http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/2011 ... rships.pdf (Actual Study)

[DarkAnts]

Study done last year on black/white scholarship recipients (there's info on Pell Grants, too):

http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/09/ ... money.html

http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/2011 ... rships.pdf (Actual Study)

1) Pell grants are based on economics. You will not qualify for it if you have been convinced of a felony. The study did not talk about that.

2) The study did not talk about biracial children. Who may "look" white but qualify for scholarships because their great grandmothers aunt is another race.

[MyNameIsJonas]

1) Pell grants are based on economics. You will not qualify for it if you have been convinced of a felony. The study did not talk about that.

2) The study did not talk about biracial children. Who may "look" white but qualify for scholarships because their great grandmothers aunt is another race.

I'm sure it's probably more common than I think, but I don't think that many seniors are applying for Pell Grants with felonies on their records. Also, many biracial people will claim one side of their heritage, or both, and why shouldn't they be able to? Biracial and your great grandmother's aunt being a POC are completely different. Unless you continue to have another race besides white down the line in your heritage, I can't really see someone claiming to be biracial with distant minority ancestry and getting away with it. If great-great-great-great Aunt Josette was black but everyone since then has been white, I'm more inclined to believe that the student would acknowledge the black ancestor but identify as white.

[Guest Anonymous]

1) Pell grants are based on economics. You will not qualify for it if you have been convinced of a felony. The study did not talk about that.

2) The study did not talk about biracial children. Who may "look" white but qualify for scholarships because their great grandmothers aunt is another race.

Yeah, being biracial is the best of both worlds: You look almost white, so your schoolmates can't quite decide whether to call your a nigger or a Paki, your mother is called a slut for marrying that black guy, and you're never quite "black enough" to embrace black culture or sing along to a Jay-Z song. It's even better when you get stared at in class because it's assumed that you've "stolen" your college place from some "more qualified" white person (despite the fact that you routinely spank every single one of your classmates in seminar discussions and your essays kick butt).

We get those sweet scholarships so it's all good.

*stony face, flat affect*

ETA: Funny thing, I can't seem to find any scholarships granted to people based on their great-grandmother's aunt's race. Can you provide some links? My great-grandmother's aunt was Irish, I want to cash in on that.

[DarkAnts]

I'm sure it's probably more common than I think, but I don't think that many seniors are applying for Pell Grants with felonies on their records. Also, many biracial people will claim one side of their heritage, or both, and why shouldn't they be able to? Biracial and your great grandmother's aunt being a POC are completely different. Unless you continue to have another race besides white down the line in your heritage, I can't really see someone claiming to be biracial with distant minority ancestry and getting away with it. If great-great-great-great Aunt Josette was black but everyone since then has been white, I'm more inclined to believe that the student would acknowledge the black ancestor but identify as white.

The problem with that the student is put a specific race for is am advantage for specific scholarships. There are not many scholarships for "white" people. These scholarships are seen as racists because they exclude people of other races. I was turned down for 8 scholarships because I was not ethnic enough (ie I was only 1/8th of the race (native american, jewish, African American). I am "white" by default because of my skin. Nothing else makes me totally white.

But, I digress. Poor is poor no matter what race you are. You are seen as scum because you are poor. You are seen as deserving of your status. Race is not an issue when you are poor in the US.

[MyNameIsJonas]

The problem with that the student is put a specific race for is am advantage for specific scholarships. There are not many scholarships for "white" people. These scholarships are seen as racists because they exclude people of other races. I was turned down for 8 scholarships because I was not ethnic enough (ie I was only 1/8th of the race (native american, jewish, African American). I am "white" by default because of my skin. Nothing else makes me totally white.

But, I digress. Poor is poor no matter what race you are. You are seen as scum because you are poor. You are seen as deserving of your status. Race is not an issue when you are poor in the US.

There are many more scholarships for white students who historically have had better educational and economic opportunities. Why shouldn't they offer minority scholarships to students who haven't had as many opportunities? Next you'll be asking why HBCU's exist. Race is very much an issue as far as poverty is concerned but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

[emmiedahl]

I believe the person who funds the scholarship is allowed to restrict it to any group. You can make a scholarship just for white people if it bothers you so much.

As for the claim that race is not an issue when you are poor; I think it is especially an issue when you are poor.

edited because spelling

[DarkAnts]

There are many more scholarships for white students who historically have had better educational and economic opportunities. Why shouldn't they offer minority scholarships to students who haven't had as many opportunities? Next you'll be asking why HBCU's exist. Race is very much an issue as far as poverty is concerned but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

How many scholarships can you name for "white" people? I can name 5 total all are for under $1000 over 4 years.

Now then how many scholarships can you name for other races? How much are they individually worth over 4 years?

I think that we need to look at the economic status of each student not the color of their skin.

[OkToBeTakei]

I believe the person who funds the scholarship is allowed to restrict it to any group. You can make a scholarship just for white people if it bothers you do much.

As for the claim that race is not an issue when you are poor; I think it is especially an issue when you are poor.

Really good discussion and very informative need to go to work but want to read all the links when I get back.

I know this discussion is predominately related to the US but I would have to say the bolded is certainly true of the UK.

Mental Health and race. Another with much to be learned.

I have a question for the poster in regards to being 'discriminated' against for a job. Was the job classed as exempt? Here it will be stated this job is exempt from the Sexl/Race discrimination act. Because...

[emmiedahl]

How many scholarships can you name for "white" people? I can name 5 total all are for under $1000 over 4 years.

Now then how many scholarships can you name for other races? How much are they individually worth over 4 years?

I think that we need to look at the economic status of each student not the color of their skin.

It sounds like you are very upset someone else might have an advantage.

Now imagine if someone else *always* had the advantage.

[Guest Anonymous]

I can't name any American scholarships (I have no reason to keep that kind of information in my head). In a quick Google search, I found four for German-Americans, eight for Irish-Americans, and ten for Italian-Americans.

Edited: punc.tua.tion

[DarkAnts]

It sounds like you are very upset someone else might have an advantage.

Now imagine if someone else *always* had the advantage.

Not upset, just brining the reality of the situation to the table. I get tired of people telling me that I am privileged because I am white. I know from experience that being a poor white person is not a privilege. I have lived in a car as a child, I have gone for days without power, I have gone hungry. I dont consider those situations to be privileged. Anyone who says its a privileged life deserves to go the special place in hell reserved for sex offenders and people who talk at the movies.

I dont appreciate people calling me privileged because of my race. From where I am standing, I am not privileged. I have had to fight tooth and nail to get where I am. I am not even middle class but I am better off then where I started in life.

[DarkAnts]

I can't name any American scholarships (I have no reason to keep that kind of information in my head). In a quick Google search, I found four for German-Americans, eight for Irish-Americans, and ten for Italian-Americans.

Edited: punc.tua.tion

But, you have to be a specific percentage of x american. I am the classic american mutt. My family left europe under cromwell. We cant claim anything above 1/8th of a % of any race.

[emmiedahl]

Not upset, just brining the reality of the situation to the table. I get tired of people telling me that I am privileged because I am white. I know from experience that being a poor white person is not a privilege. I have lived in a car as a child, I have gone for days without power, I have gone hungry. I dont consider those situations to be privileged. Anyone who says its a privileged life deserves to go the special place in hell reserved for sex offenders and people who talk at the movies.

I dont appreciate people calling me privileged because of my race. From where I am standing, I am not privileged. I have had to fight tooth and nail to get where I am. I am not even middle class but I am better off then where I started in life.

You are racially privileged. Not economically privileged perhaps, but they are two different things.

I am aware that at times, one may feel disadvantaged even if they are not black. I don't think anyone here is denying that there are other ways to be disadvantaged.

Seriously, this is like when Christians cry persecution. Yeah, it's that bad.

[Guest Anonymous]

But, you have to be a specific percentage of x american. I am the classic american mutt. My family left europe under cromwell. We cant claim anything above 1/8th of a % of any race.

The descriptions I found did not specify 1/8, they just said "of [blah] heritage".

[emmiedahl]

I just took a browse through the German American ones, and only one specified "strong" German heritage. The others just wanted generic German descent of some sort.

[MyNameIsJonas]

Not upset, just brining the reality of the situation to the table. I get tired of people telling me that I am privileged because I am white. I know from experience that being a poor white person is not a privilege. I have lived in a car as a child, I have gone for days without power, I have gone hungry. I dont consider those situations to be privileged. Anyone who says its a privileged life deserves to go the special place in hell reserved for sex offenders and people who talk at the movies.

I dont appreciate people calling me privileged because of my race. From where I am standing, I am not privileged. I have had to fight tooth and nail to get where I am. I am not even middle class but I am better off then where I started in life.

I see what you're talking about, but that isn't white privilege. White privilege is more than just what material things you get to have or what money you make. White does not automatically equal easy life, and no one is saying that. Having privilege doesn't mean you should feel guilty or ashamed. It means that in this country, you get to move freely and fairly without question in a way that I, as a black woman, cannot. THAT is your privilege. As a white person, you are not under a microscope the way that POC are. If we were both the same age, appeared to be of the same social class and each walked into a supermarket with a toddler to do some shopping, your white privilege makes other shoppers say, "How cute!" or ignore your actions completely. It makes shoppers look at me and say "She looks young too have a baby." Or, "Where is his father?"

[G G Gunhold]

I should clarify, she couldn't get a job in her field of speciality (mental health). There are other jobs under the nursing umbrella she could get.

Still reading through this thread, but as someone who is mixed race and has spent ten years in counseling, I can say at least where I am (major metropolitan area), it's really difficult to find a mental health professional who isn't white, esp. if you have any other specialized needs (e.g. actual diagnosis, insurance coverage, location). I'm sorry your friend is having trouble finding a job, but I think there's a valid reason here in terms of trying to meet needs. I've had a number of great counselors who were white, but I've also had some where I felt like I wasn't understood or where I was exoticized.

And for the record, I was explicitly passed over for internal promotion by a white boss only because he was looking for someone who was "more visibly not-white". While I was offended/hurt as an individual, I also understood that his concern was because of the visibility of the position and its outreach goals (I'm still not sure that his methods were ideal). Does it suck? Yeah, esp. since I don't identify as white. But at the same time, I've been in positions where I'm absolutely sure I'm benefitting from (or avoid punishment/criticism by) being able to "pass". And part of what constitutes the privilege that I have is the fact that I don't actually have to see it or think about it or factor it in to the equation of my actions. Would I be treated this way if I were a different gender? Different race? Different weight? Different accent? Different age?

Part of the really really sucky thing about racism is that even though the system might not be set up so that I get a boost, so to speak, it's certainly set up to hold other people back. So yes, I work hard and am honest and struggle and all that. But you know what? I do that WITHOUT the extra burden of rules set up to keep me from winning. What makes me angry is knowing how damn hard it is to make it within our systems for me, with so many privileges, it is THAT MUCH HARDER for people who are facing real systemic racism, or language and education barriers, or who don't have the emotional support of a loving family

Here's how I try to explain it for people who have trouble understanding how you might have privilege and not realize it. Most men I know are very careful when they're around children they don't know really well -- they are aware of who else is around, they are very careful of engaging with kids they don't know at all, they are wary of ever being the only one in a situation with a kid. Virtually no women I've met (besides a few teachers) display this kind of caution towards how they interact with kids. Despite the fact that very very few men are pedophiles, that some pedophiles are women, and that most pedophiles are already well known to the children they hurt, women take their own innocence for granted in a way that men can't/don't.

This isn't meant to be a direct coorelation with racism at all, but a very simple example of one particular kind of privilege that might help illustrate how those with it take it for granted and how those without it might change their behavior quite a bit to function.

[Guest Anonymous]

I see what you're talking about, but that isn't white privilege. White privilege is more than just what material things you get to have or what money you make. White does not automatically equal easy life, and no one is saying that. Having privilege doesn't mean you should feel guilty or ashamed. It means that in this country, you get to move freely and fairly without question in a way that I, as a black woman, cannot. THAT is your privilege. As a white person, you are not under a microscope the way that POC are. If we were both the same age, appeared to be of the same social class and each walked into a supermarket with a toddler to do some shopping, your white privilege makes other shoppers say, "How cute!" or ignore your actions completely. It makes shoppers look at me and say "She looks young too have a baby." Or, "Where is his father?"

And have the security guard follow you around to make sure you're not hiding anything in the baby's pram. Or is that just me?