Rant of Rage: People Can't be Racist Against Whites

[Guest Anonymous]

The problem with that the student is put a specific race for is am advantage for specific scholarships. There are not many scholarships for "white" people. These scholarships are seen as racists because they exclude people of other races. I was turned down for 8 scholarships because I was not ethnic enough (ie I was only 1/8th of the race (native american, jewish, African American). I am "white" by default because of my skin. Nothing else makes me totally white.

But, I digress. Poor is poor no matter what race you are. You are seen as scum because you are poor. You are seen as deserving of your status. Race is not an issue when you are poor in the US.

Hypothetical:

Two siblings are born. They are raised by the same two parents in the same circumstances. One of the siblings is a boy and one is a girl. There is shit that the girl will have to deal with her entire life because of sexism. The boy will not have to deal with it, because he has male privilege. It's not his fault, he didn't ask for it, but there it is. Do you disagree?

Hypothetical 2:

Parents adopt two babies. They are both girls, but one is white and one is black. Even though they will be raised in exactly the same enviornment, the girl who is black will have to deal with shit her entire life because of racism. The girl who is white may be affected because of what she sees her sister dealing with, but she will not have to experience it the same way because of her white privilege. It's not her fault, she didn't ask for it, but she has it. This is going to be true across all economic statuses.

No matter what you're dealing with, if you're a woman, or a non-white person in the United States, there is going to be an extra set of hurdles for you to get over.

I'm not trying to pile on you, Shewearsfunnyhat. When you're just barely making it day to day it's not like you're going to be doing in depth analysis of what other people are going through - and nothing that someone is else is dealing with negates the severity or reality of your situation. It sucks to be poor, it is hard, no one should have to be hungry or sleep in their car. But race still matters, hardship doesn't erase it.

**Edited to take out some personal history stuff that I decided I didn't want on the internet for eternity. Short version: I grew up poor, extremely poor at times.

[linnea27]

I dont appreciate people calling me privileged because of my race. From where I am standing, I am not privileged. I have had to fight tooth and nail to get where I am. I am not even middle class but I am better off then where I started in life.

[OkToBeTakei]

There are definitely different ways of defining racism. I think the important thing to keep in mind is that, as a member of the majority, there is no societal bias against us that would create institutional racism. So we may meet individual assholes, who are likely assholes to a variety of people of all races, but we have in general not been victim of a larger effort.

There are smaller cases of institutional racism against whites in the US, but like I said, it is not the story of a white American person's life. How do I know I have white privilege even though I cannot see it? Because I know that members of the majority religion do not see their privilege; they are quick to point to "that one time" they were individually persecuted and cannot grasp that my religion is perpetually treated as less than. I know that middle class and wealthy people do not see their privilege; they think they worked hard to get what they have and don't understand that I work just as hard for less. I know that most men do not see their privilege. Privilege is not something you directly experience in most cases, although you certainly experience its lack. The relative lack of negative experiences related to my skin color is the same inherent privilege that Christians, men, middle class people enjoy.

Privilege does not mean you were pushed to the front of the line; it means no one was allowed to push you to the back.

That is really food for thought.

MyNameIsJonas I have really enjoyed your posts, your calm, factual manner of posting has been really impressive and highly educational to me.

I think it is always difficult to enter these types of discussions without investing some part of your own experience ie. Racism exists because THIS happened to me or this does not happen because I have never seen, experienced or heard of it. It is hard to step out of your own demographic, experience and beliefs. You can see it on so many issues discussed on FJ. I looked at this last night and this morning and thought, OH this is not about me, no this is the USA. Well it is not. It translates well to my life in the UK although the issues may be slightly different.

Salsa...shame on you. I never post drunk. Nope not me. Never. Nope. :lol:

[salsa]

Perhaps because you were an early bloomer, not because of your race that this happened. There are far fewer negative stereotypes about white motherhood than black. Some people are straight up rude. Salsa, I don't want to quote your whole post here so if you read this, I don't think you're racist. We all get drunk sometimes. :dance: Like I said, some people are really rude. If you seem to notice that black people are more rude to you than white people, well, I don't really know what to say to that.

back from work! I came to check this thread to see if anyone had replied to me because I didn't want to flounce.

Thanks. There is a "thing" around here where *SOME* (note the emphasis on "some") black and African American folks do deliberately target white folks. Not sure where it originates, but some African American folks have acknowledged it. It's also acknowledged in Johnson's book. .... I just hate getting lumped in with all the white folks who are ignoramuses.

but you all are having a great conversation without me, so ... carry on, then! :)

[2xx1xy1JD]

This is what I was trying to say. I should have been less of an asshat in my OP, and explain that I was talking about American culture.

I don't think of you as an asshat!

You were echoing an argument that I've been hearing for at least the past 20 years. It's actually nice to have a somewhat civil online discussion about it. Personally, I love any discussion in which people say, 'good point" or "I never really thought about it that way".

I figured out that you were likely referring to American culture. I just can't resist pointing out that not all of us are American. More than that, though, I know a lot of people who ARE American and are currently in a position where they are benefiting from White privilege, but who also came from places where they experienced extreme racism (slavery, religious discrimination, having their homes and possessions stolen from them, imprisonment, denial of employment and education, physical attacks, genocide) because they were a part of a particular group.

[Wolfie]

How many white people's whose ancestors were white were forced to change their religion, hide their language or barely speak it, had to create a civil rights' movement for their rights?

Mine did- during both WWI and WWII German speaking Americans were highly discrimnated against. I don't know what my great grandmother (a Dunker) went through, but one of my college profs, also an Anabaptist, said that they had firebombs thrown through their church windows and were called names. It's why very few Anabaptist groups still speak German as their main language. Because many Anabaptist churches were associated with German speaking people, they were also discriminated against.

Also, as others have said, white Muslims face discrimination.

And I have been selling stuff all day, so I haven't had time to keep up with this thread.

[Wolfie]

I don't believe there's such a thing as individual racism.

What planet do you live on? Yes there is individual racism.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Mine did- during both WWI and WWII German speaking Americans were highly discrimnated against.

Something else just generally to keep in mind during threads like this though (or immigration threads) is that "white" isn't really about skin color. That's PART of it, of course, but the definition of "white" has changed over time. When a lot of Europeans were immigrating to the US in numbers such that they were easily "othered" and keeping their own communities and using non-English languages for media and schooling (hint: it's not only Spanish speakers that have/had such institutions) they weren't considered "white" either. There's a reason "WASP" is a thing, after all. It's not only the "W" people cared about.

[marmalade]

I'm sure it's probably more common than I think, but I don't think that many seniors are applying for Pell Grants with felonies on their records. Also, many biracial people will claim one side of their heritage, or both, and why shouldn't they be able to? Biracial and your great grandmother's aunt being a POC are completely different. Unless you continue to have another race besides white down the line in your heritage, I can't really see someone claiming to be biracial with distant minority ancestry and getting away with it. If great-great-great-great Aunt Josette was black but everyone since then has been white, I'm more inclined to believe that the student would acknowledge the black ancestor but identify as white.

All three of my half-sisters took advantage, although they were raised in a borderline middle/upper-middle class (as seen at that time) environment. They were lucky to have an Hisapanic surname. They're half Mexican, although though all kinds of mixed mating, the family is like the Duggars; I have a black haired-blue-eyed aunt who is fully Mexican, her brother looked indigenous. Two of my sisters have medium brown hair, fair skin and brown eyes. My third sister has darker coloring, but very delicate features (our other half is Italian). She has always used her maiden name, but one of the "pale" sisters married a Dutch guy and when she went back into the workforce, realized she needed to add a hyphen. BUT damn if she didn't claim she was SPANISH when planning her nuclear family's trip to Spain. Yeah, like 10 generations ago.

She also coached my niece and nephew to identify as Hispanic (although they're only 1/4) on college apps. They have a Dutch surname and you'd never know they were Mexican at all. Hell, the other "white" Hispanic married a Scandinavian guy and you would NEVER guess those guys are /14 Mexican.

That said, I just read a string of case studies on this subject for school. Although people don't realize it when words tumble out of their mouths, or typed into a forum, reverse racism is alive and well. And no matter how poor a white person is, most minorities see Caucasians as superior, or the power-holders. They're right.

[VaSportsMom]

Hypothetical 2:

Parents adopt two babies. They are both girls, but one is white and one is black. Even though they will be raised in exactly the same enviornment, the girl who is black will have to deal with shit her entire life because of racism. The girl who is white may be affected because of what she sees her sister dealing with, but she will not have to experience it the same way because of her white privilege. It's not her fault, she didn't ask for it, but she has it. This is going to be true across all economic statuses.

(Snipped by me & edited because I posted too soon).

My baby sister has a son that is biracial (father is black, we are white). After she had D she married a local guy and they have a daughter & son together. We live in Southwest VA and while the town I live in has quite a few minority groups that are well established, she lives in a much more rural area. I graduated from the town she lives in and there wasn't a single black person in the '94 graduating class. My nephew is 1 of 7 black/biracial children in his elementary school so things haven't changed a lot.

Anyway, my nephew experiences quite a bit of racism in his daily life. My sister knows this and for that reason she favors D over her other children in an attempt to make up for the other shit. The whole situation has created quite a mess where her younger children resent their brother and are beginning to join classmates in picking on him.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Good point. In addition to racism that may have been experienced elsewhere, some White Americans would have experienced racism in the United States as a result of being part of a group that was considered to be something other than Just Plain White.

Incidentally, I found some interesting articles on my other favorite website, Kveller:

http://www.kveller.com/blog/parenting/a ... -the-same/

http://www.kveller.com/blog/parenting/w ... -religion/

http://www.kveller.com/blog/parenting/g ... viet-jews/

[BlueChair]

Yup, I sure wouldn't want to be white i.e. albino in certain African villages, especially in Tanzania (but also other parts of East Africa). I mean, considering the trade of their body parts...

Eta. Is it common to use the word race nowadays? Ras (race) is a word which has been successfully challenged and removed from the Swedish language. We do not use that word anymore, and ras is replaced with etnicitet (ethnicity) in the code of laws. (Of course we recognize there is one race: the human race i.e. homo sapiens - sapiens).

I've read through the whole thread and everything else I would have wanted to say has already been said, but I just had to address the bolded above. I'm an American and have been living in Scandinavia for the past two years and this drives me up a wall.

Racism is a problem. The problem doesn't go away when you make race a 4-letter word and remove it from the conversation. You can't just say, "Oh but we are all one human race!" and go about your merry way. Never mind that "race" has just been replaced by "multiculturalism" and "ethnicity" or that possibly those words were always favored in the conversation instead.

I have observed more racism in Scandinavia than anywhere else I have ever lived. I have also encountered more back-patting about having solved race-related issues there than anywhere else I've ever lived. The cognitive dissonance on this issue in a place that I otherwise find so forward thinking and progressive stuns me. I think that making "race" a dirty word has only contributed to making conversations around the subject of race and racism taboo. That's not how you address and resolve problems, that's how you sweep them under the rug and let them fester.

Anyway, thanks for this conversation and the links! I love a good examination of privilege, racial or otherwise.

[BlondeAgent007]

My father got the living shit kicked out of him for being a smart, chubby, white student at an all black school on a daily basis, for being white. He went to gym class once in 9th grade. He went in to get changed, and all the lights got turned off. They beat the fucking shit out of him, turned on the lights and left him in a bloody puddle in the middle of the bathroom. He never went to gym class again, and he got an A. I think it took a lot of understanding on his part to adopt my youngest brother, who is a black child. His mother still is quite stand-offish from him.

White racism does happen.

[maybeizfundie]

If you have only learned that definition, it might avoid anger on both sides if you check to find out if the person claiming racism against whites knows about the "it's about power and society" definition of the word, or if they are thinking "one person treated another person badly because of their race, which can go in any direction."

This. It's important to know what definition is being used. Most people I've ever heard use the term have the second definition in mind

[MyNameIsJonas]

That is really food for thought.

MyNameIsJonas I have really enjoyed your posts, your calm, factual manner of posting has been really impressive and highly educational to me.

Thanks. Again, I can only speak on this from my own experience so it often comes out very biased and I try not to sound confrontational if I can help it. My dad's family is from Texas and I have American slave ancestry (and a little bit of native american waaaaay back) on his side. My mom would be white passing except for her proud Caribbean nose that gives everything away :lol: but her paternal great grandfather was just a regular white British businessman (pretty common in Jamaica; on a hilarious note, my mom swears that she is related to the Queen) and her mother definitely had mixed ancestry including some asian islanders who came from the mountains. So that's produced two, fairly medium skinned girls with curly hair, but my sister and I aren't white passing by any means. We never really talked about race when I was growing up. We would watch documentaries about Civil Rights activists in February (the Malcolm X ones were my favorite) but besides that we never really had that "talk" about how to respond to white authority and our own status in society. I think that if there had been a male child in the house that would have been different. When I first read the N-word in a book (hard "r", not "gga") I was uncomfortable. I didn't know what it meant, but I knew I shouldn't be saying it and that it didn't describe me. So I grew up with the idea that we were black, of course, but we were just like every other suburban middle class family around. I don't know how to happened but I became interested in things that weren't stereo typically "black" (I loved to read, listened to 70s and 80s rock, had long "good" hair etc) and the microaggressions started on all sides. I was told that I was "so articulate" once by a grocery store employee and at the time I just said " thank you" because I really felt that it came out of nowhere. I wore a band tshirt to school once and a group of black girls asked me where I was from. It didn't help that I was already very bright and very quiet, but once I had interests that were outside of their "sphere", none of the black kids really liked me, and I was more of a token with my white friends. It really felt like I was on the outside looking in all the time, so I started to "other" myself from the black kids my age, I just didn't realize it. I figured that I was already semi-in with the white kids because we liked the same things, so why not just stick to whatever group I could be part of? A lot of the time, the words that came out of my mouth were "Other black girls are like that, not me." I had internalized so much without realizing it. The day that my white friend told me that I was lucky that I could switch between being "White Jonas" and "Black Jonas" I was floored because it hadn't occurred to me that I wasn't just acting like "Jonas." So from then on I became really interested in where exactly all of this came from and its lead me into the reading and studying I do today.

Edited to mention that Malcolm X was one of the first to talk of the "white man" as a collective, and not based on cultural identity. The social construct of whiteness is actually very interesting and worth reading about.

[theologygeek]

I have been pissed the past few days and need to let it out. There is no such thing as "white racism". To the people who say they were the only white kid in their neighborhood and were picked on because they were white, that's not the case. The minorities were attacking your privilege, not you. If you wonder why, then read on. How many times have white people been denied jobs because of their skin color, or of they weren't qualified enough?

How many times have whites been denied jobs and have had to have been checked in public places for their religious head coverings? How many times in history were whites held in slavery, and the excuse by plantation owners was it's ok because they were the inferior race? How many times have white people been told to deal with the great freedom they have because according to black people, POC have created most of the world's inventions, and discovered new discoveries? How many white people's whose ancestors were white were forced to change their religion, hide their language or barely speak it, had to create a civil rights' movement for their rights? How many white people have been arrested in a crime even if they were innocent? Is the government made up of mostly black people who're trying to deny white people their rights because they're afraid of losing even an iota of their influence and power?

Who set up imperialized empires that exploited white people through powers by force of expansion and weapons? Who commited the genocides against the native whites and took their land for themselves? Do black business men have control of most of the worlds' governments and major coorperations? (sp?) If you answered no to most of these questions, then SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP. There's no such thing as white racism, you special little snowflakes. * I just had to get this off my chest :oops: *

Did school let out early or were you drinking? Italians who came to the US via Ellis Island were treated badly. My ex husband's grandmother was just a child. She was called dirty and disgusting and was checked for infectious diseases and head lice. She was not dirty. My great uncle wanted to chop off part of his last name because he couldn't find work, but my grandfather wouldn't let him. Many Italians changed their last names for the same reason. The teacher changed my father's name because she said it sounded too Italian. He was just a little boy. She didn't just change it for the classroom. She changed it in the school records too. He still goes by that name to this day, and the teacher didn't even translate the name correctly.

One of my dearest friends went through divorce from her scum lawyer husband and he took her to the cleaners. She now lives in the ghetto. The school in her son's district is terrible. The school has metal detectors and gangs. My friend tried for two years to get him into a magnet school in that city. He lost the lottery both years. After further pressing, she learned that he was the wrong color. They accepted 90% African American, 5% white, and 5% other. Yet they announced in the newspaper that there were still openings even after he was refused admission. I pay for his private school.

I was in New Orleans a couple of years ago. I was outside of the hotel waiting for a cab when a group of black women walked by. One shouted out "You need to take your white ass back where you came from." Wrong thing to say to an Italian with a hot temper who is a loose cannon to begin with. She must have been attacking my privilege whatever that is supposed to mean.

[MyNameIsJonas]

One of my dearest friends went through divorce from her scum lawyer husband and he took her to the cleaners. She now lives in the ghetto. The school in her son's district is terrible. The school has metal detectors and gangs. My friend tried for two years to get him into a magnet school in that city. He lost the lottery both years. After further pressing, she learned that he was the wrong color. They accepted 90% African American, 5% white, and 5% other. Yet they announced in the newspaper that there were still openings even after he was refused admission. I pay for his private school.

Have you ever considered the reasons that this whole situation is happening?

She must have been attacking my privilege whatever that is supposed to mean.

Obviously not.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Did school let out early or were you drinking? Italians who came to the US via Ellis Island were treated badly. My ex husband's grandmother was just a child. She was called dirty and disgusting and was checked for infectious diseases and head lice. She was not dirty. My great uncle wanted to chop off part of his last name because he couldn't find work, but my grandfather wouldn't let him. Many Italians changed their last names for the same reason. The teacher changed my father's name because she said it sounded too Italian. He was just a little boy. She didn't just change it for the classroom. She changed it in the school records too. He still goes by that name to this day, and the teacher didn't even translate the name correctly.

.

This was common practice for many ethnic groups. I have a surname that doesn't sound Jewish because my grandfather's kindergarten teacher arbitrarily declared that she didn't like the original last name and simply removed a letter - and the whole family ended up with a new name. 100 years ago, Jewish children in Montreal also simply expected the teacher to give them a new English first name on their first day of school.

[theologygeek]

Have you ever considered the reasons that this whole situation is happening?

Obviously not.

Whatever the reasons, it doesn't change the fact that no child should have to go to school every day in fear. My kids would adapt fine, but they are tougher. This child is shy and frights easily. It was a terrible environment for him. I visited the school before I made the decision to pay for his private schooling. It was a circus. The kids were yelling and wild. I asked the secretary how she could take that every day. She said "I can't."

[theologygeek]

This was common practice for many ethnic groups. I have a surname that doesn't sound Jewish because my grandfather's kindergarten teacher arbitrarily declared that she didn't like the original last name and simply removed a letter - and the whole family ended up with a new name. 100 years ago, Jewish children in Montreal also simply expected the teacher to give them a new English first name on their first day of school.

I asked my father why no one spoke up when this name changing by teachers was going on. He said the kids were too scared and the parents didn't speak English.

[MyNameIsJonas]

Whatever the reasons, it doesn't change the fact that no child should have to go to school every day in fear.

I agree. But I fail to see how that situation equates to racism against whites.

[theologygeek]

My father got the living shit kicked out of him for being a smart, chubby, white student at an all black school on a daily basis, for being white. He went to gym class once in 9th grade. He went in to get changed, and all the lights got turned off. They beat the fucking shit out of him, turned on the lights and left him in a bloody puddle in the middle of the bathroom. He never went to gym class again, and he got an A. I think it took a lot of understanding on his part to adopt my youngest brother, who is a black child. His mother still is quite stand-offish from him.

White racism does happen.

I went to school with a girl who walked downtown instead of taking a bus or getting a ride. She passed by housing projects and some girls beat her up because she was white and they said she had no right to walk on their turf. They knocked out her front teeth. White racism does indeed happen.

[Guest Anonymous]

I went to school with a girl who walked downtown instead of taking a bus or getting a ride. She passed by housing projects and some girls beat her up because she was white and they said she had no right to walk on their turf. They knocked out her front teeth. White racism does indeed happen.

I can't find the original quote for this, and I haven't been reading this thread for a while, so it might have already been addressed, but this perplexes me. Are you saying that, because your father was bullied by black kids, he had to be particularly 'understanding' to not take it out on your brother, a black child? He had to be a special kind of 'understanding' to not transfer his feelings about his school bullies to a child, simply because they're of the same race?

[MyNameIsJonas]

I can't find the original quote for this, and I haven't been reading this thread for a while, so it might have already been addressed, but this perplexes me. Are you saying that, because your father was bullied by black kids, he had to be particularly 'understanding' to not take it out on your brother, a black child? He had to be a special kind of 'understanding' to not transfer his feelings about his school bullies to a child, simply because they're of the same race?

Don't worry, I was thinking the same. Did he think the little boy would grow up and beat him up for being white?

[theologygeek]

I agree. But I fail to see how that situation equates to racism against whites.

The OP asked how many times whites were denied jobs. Not only were they denied jobs, but they are still denied admission to some schools.