Rant of Rage: People Can't be Racist Against Whites

[terranova]

Is there any proof that they have quotas and they hire based on skin color?

Apart from the fact that she was told at her interview that they needed to hire more people of a certain ethnic minority? No.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I agree that power can change if different contexts.

I see how racism can be experienced subjectively. To your friend, what he experienced would have felt, TO HIM, like racism. At the same time, I would hesitate to call it racist as an objective statement, because the reserves exist for specific historical reasons and I would not consider their existence to be racist (except to the extent that the whole structure of the Indian Act perpetuates chronic poverty in the Native community by providing incentives for people to live in places that are often too remote to access decent education or jobs, and that don't allow you to build up equity in your house, and that often have substandard housing and basic services, but that's another rant).

I might view it as white racism if a white child living and/or attending school in a predominantly non-white setting was constantly bullied specifically for being white. For THAT child, it's not an isolated incident, and the very specific power dynamic in their situation may be against them.

[terranova]

Apart from the fact that she was told at her interview that they needed to hire more people of a certain ethnic minority? No.

I should clarify, she couldn't get a job in her field of speciality (mental health). There are other jobs under the nursing umbrella she could get.

[Coconut Flan]

The whole racial thing is both interesting and frustrating to me because I'm mixed race. I've had people from two of my racial heritages make nasty remarks and even attack me for not being of their racial group without realizing or knowing my heritage. I don't like it but I write it off to anger and ignorance. It has lessened a lot in the last ten to twenty years or people are less likely to go after a middle-aged woman of any group perhaps.

My mother oddly enough looks Hispanic although we have zero Hispanic heritage. In Southern California a routine issue with her is having people speak to her in Spanish which she does not speak and then yelling at her for being ignorant, not keeping up with her heritage, and much, much worse.

The issues seem based in ethnic/racial stereotypes, some cultural pride, and yes, some privilege or presumed privilege. Some of it though, I fear, is simply hate of what is different or perceived to be as different.

Another aspect is pollsters who refuse to accept mixed race or metis as a designation and insist that everyone has a single racial identification.

I guess my point is that some people will harrass or attack anyone who is different from them simply because they are different. To me that is a form of racism.

[linnea27]

I agree that power can change if different contexts.

I see how racism can be experienced subjectively. To your friend, what he experienced would have felt, TO HIM, like racism. At the same time, I would hesitate to call it racist as an objective statement, because the reserves exist for specific historical reasons and I would not consider their existence to be racist (except to the extent that the whole structure of the Indian Act perpetuates chronic poverty in the Native community by providing incentives for people to live in places that are often too remote to access decent education or jobs, and that don't allow you to build up equity in your house, and that often have substandard housing and basic services, but that's another rant).

Oh, I totally agree with that. I am not saying that these things themselves are racist, but just that his experience there, he felt like everything was working against him. Obviously that feeling is subjective, and he didnt have to live there in the same way that a minority person has to live in America/Canada/wherever. I just meant that when he says he felt he was a victim of racism, I can understand that in a way I can't understand someone else who says "I was a victim of racism because that guy called me by a slur." His experience was one of a lack of power in that community, which obviously didnt carry over once he moved away. And, as a child, he wasn't aware of the community's place in the larger white-dominant community. I do agree and believe that the systems he felt discriminated by are there to level the playing field for First Nations people.

[lilwriter85]

The whole racial thing is both interesting and frustrating to me because I'm mixed race. I've had people from two of my racial heritages make nasty remarks and even attack me for not being of their racial group without realizing or knowing my heritage. I don't like it but I write it off to anger and ignorance. It has lessened a lot in the last ten to twenty years or people are less likely to go after a middle-aged woman of any group perhaps.

My mother oddly enough looks Hispanic although we have zero Hispanic heritage. In Southern California a routine issue with her is having people speak to her in Spanish which she does not speak and then yelling at her for being ignorant, not keeping up with her heritage, and much, much worse.

The issues seem based in ethnic/racial stereotypes, some cultural pride, and yes, some privilege or presumed privilege. Some of it though, I fear, is simply hate of what is different or perceived to be as different.

Another aspect is pollsters who refuse to accept mixed race or metis as a designation and insist that everyone has a single racial identification.

I guess my point is that some people will harrass or attack anyone who is different from them simply because they are different. To me that is a form of racism.

I'm Hispanic of mixed race background. One of the biggest problems in the U.S. is that many people think Hispanic is a racial designation when it is actually an umbrella ethnic/culture type term for people who have ties/heritage to areas formerly under the Spanish empire. The term can be used a description for Spanish speakers. There isn't one way to look Hispanic because Hispanics can be be of any race. Hispanics with brown skin are usually mestizo meaning they have a racial admixture of European and Indigenous/Native American background. There are white Hispanics like Gloria Estefan, Julie Gonazalo, and Joanna Garcia and black Hispanics like Zoe Saldana and LaLa Vasquez. In my family, several of my relatives don't have brown skin and some of them have red or blonde hair. My maternal grandmother had blue eyes. The people who are assuming that your mom is Hispanic shouldn't be jumping to conclusions based on how she looks.

[jaynie]

I think you need to distinguish between historical oppression and present racism a bit better. My (white) grandfather was physically disciplined for speaking his own language in schools in his own country (Wales) in the 20th century (it was thought that the welsh language was the cause of anti-authoritarian, non-conformist behavior.) Repression of native British cultures was big in the 18th-19th century, and reclaiming them is kind of a big deal today. Instead of taking historical supression-of-language as proof of racism in the present day, I think it's better to look at it as a possible contributing factor. Nobody is going to deny me a bank loan because my ancestors were from the valleys. In certain parts of Wales (not sure about the whole country, only the bit I've got family in), you can now send your children to welsh-language schools. Even historically, many welsh children would have learned English very well from an early age and could communicate effectively in it. Meanwhile the suppression of other native languages (like the native African languages of slaves) may have lead to cultural loss, isolation from peers, and (because English was not necessarily well taught or easily grasped) difficulty in advancing in society or communicating effectively with it. People are still prejudiced against black english vernacular, and that prejudice can cause real problems. So the same historical event led to different conclusions in different cultures.

I do agree that power is an important component of racism. "Someone called me whitey" is not the same as "someone arrested me for the 50th time for no reason except that I'm black", and it annoys me to hear people equate the two, but I think saying "No white person has even experienced X" is a dangerous game, because it's a big world filled with lots of shitty people, and there are other factors at play that may well have led a white person to experience X.

Terranova: Affirmative action gives preference to minority people with equal or almost equal qualifications as majority people. Without it, majority people almost always get the job (even if they are less -sometimes significantly less -qualified). Your friend is not entitled to a job in her field more than people of whatever-ethnic-minority are. I once didn't get a job because I was not team-spirited enough. It wasn't a teamwork-based job and I was more than qualified, but my qualifications weren't a guarantee. The last point on this page does a reasonably good job explaining this concisely: http://www.understandingprejudice.org/r ... affirm.htm

[themadapple]

The whole racial thing is both interesting and frustrating to me because I'm mixed race. I've had people from two of my racial heritages make nasty remarks and even attack me for not being of their racial group without realizing or knowing my heritage. I don't like it but I write it off to anger and ignorance. It has lessened a lot in the last ten to twenty years or people are less likely to go after a middle-aged woman of any group perhaps.

My mother oddly enough looks Hispanic although we have zero Hispanic heritage. In Southern California a routine issue with her is having people speak to her in Spanish which she does not speak and then yelling at her for being ignorant, not keeping up with her heritage, and much, much worse.

Oh dear. Well, I'm a mutt. I'm actually quite pleased with this. A mutt with a very common Spanish last name.

It amazes me the sort of reactions I get who are without a drop of Hispanic heritage. It seems to boggle the minds of some that you can be of more than one ethnicity. They get confused when I tell them I'm not 100% Mexican. They get still more confused when I tell then that my Hispanic heritage is part Mexican, part Spanish (my great grandfather was from Spain). They look disappointed when I tell them that if we're going by strict percentages here, I'm actually more Irish and I cannot speak Spanish beyond the basic pleasantries. I often get credit card offers and charity pleas written in Spanish. My German is far better :lol: Interesting, as they never bothered to ask those with Polish last names if they spoke Polish and so on.

Ugh, frustrating. Can't being a human first and foremost and an American be enough? I mean hell, I can trace many of my family lines to the damn boats some centuries ago. Ah well!

Needed to rant, feel better now *breathes*

[Coconut Flan]

lilwriter85

I'm Hispanic of mixed race background. One of the biggest problems in the U.S. is that many people think Hispanic is a racial designation when it is actually an umbrella ethnic/culture type term for people who have ties/heritage to areas formerly under the Spanish empire. The term can be used a description for Spanish speakers. There isn't one way to look Hispanic because Hispanics can be be of any race. Hispanics with brown skin are usually mestizo meaning they have a racial admixture of European and Indigenous/Native American background. There are white Hispanics like Gloria Estefan, Julie Gonazalo, and Joanna Garcia and black Hispanics like Zoe Saldana and LaLa Vasquez. In my family, several of my relatives don't have brown skin and some of them have red or blonde hair. My maternal grandmother had blue eyes. The people who are assuming that your mom is Hispanic shouldn't be jumping to conclusions based on how she looks.

Which is pretty much my point. People make assumptions and judgements based on looks and pre-conceived ideas and then let those judgements influence their actions. (Sorry I wasn't clear, but I know Hispanic is not a race.)

[Coconut Flan]

It amazes me the sort of reactions I get who are without a drop of Hispanic heritage. It seems to boggle the minds of some that you can be of more than one ethnicity. They get confused when I tell them I'm not 100% Mexican. They get still more confused when I tell then that my Hispanic heritage is part Mexican, part Spanish (my great grandfather was from Spain).

One of my previous bosses has a last name of Cruz. Yes, widespread assumption that he can and should speak Spanish fluently. He took French in high school and college, I think. He was descended from people who moved from Spain to Arizona in the late 1800s and did not pass along the language. Last time we talked about it I think he knew six words or so of Spanish. Piso mojada being the most relevant to him. :)

[lilwriter85]

Which is pretty much my point. People make assumptions and judgements based on looks and pre-conceived ideas and then let those judgements influence their actions. (Sorry I wasn't clear, but I know Hispanic is not a race.)

It is ok don't worry. Here in the States, I've encountered many mestizo Hispanics who have a lot of pre-conceieved ideas of "how Hispanics should be or act" and some of their actions can be terrible at times. They sometimes try to make it seem as if "one unified Hispanic community exists in the U.S." when in reality they are various types of Hispanic communities. There are Hispanic communities in New Mexico that speak an archaic form of Spanish because their ancestors lived in isolation for a long time and even some Pueblo Indian language words crept into the dialect. There are Hispanic families and communities that don't practice certain holidays or rites of passages parties (e.g. quincenera) for different reasons. I once encountered a woman(non-Hispanic) who asked me if I had a quincinera and she was shocked when I said no. I remember she said something like "Well I thought all Hispanics did that stuff".

[OkToBeTakei]

I think you need to distinguish between historical oppression and present racism a bit better. My (white) grandfather was physically disciplined for speaking his own language in schools in his own country (Wales) in the 20th century (it was thought that the welsh language was the cause of anti-authoritarian, non-conformist behavior.) Repression of native British cultures was big in the 18th-19th century, and reclaiming them is kind of a big deal today. Instead of taking historical supression-of-language as proof of racism in the present day, I think it's better to look at it as a possible contributing factor. Nobody is going to deny me a bank loan because my ancestors were from the valleys. In certain parts of Wales (not sure about the whole country, only the bit I've got family in), you can now send your children to welsh-language schools. Even historically, many welsh children would have learned English very well from an early age and could communicate effectively in it. Meanwhile the suppression of other native languages (like the native African languages of slaves) may have lead to cultural loss, isolation from peers, and (because English was not necessarily well taught or easily grasped) difficulty in advancing in society or communicating effectively with it. People are still prejudiced against black english vernacular, and that prejudice can cause real problems. So the same historical event led to different conclusions in different cultures.

I do agree that power is an important component of racism. "Someone called me whitey" is not the same as "someone arrested me for the 50th time for no reason except that I'm black", and it annoys me to hear people equate the two, but I think saying "No white person has even experienced X" is a dangerous game, because it's a big world filled with lots of shitty people, and there are other factors at play that may well have led a white person to experience X.

Terranova: Affirmative action gives preference to minority people with equal or almost equal qualifications as majority people. Without it, majority people almost always get the job (even if they are less -sometimes significantly less -qualified). Your friend is not entitled to a job in her field more than people of whatever-ethnic-minority are. I once didn't get a job because I was not team-spirited enough. It wasn't a teamwork-based job and I was more than qualified, but my qualifications weren't a guarantee. The last point on this page does a reasonably good job explaining this concisely: http://www.understandingprejudice.org/r ... affirm.htm

Good post !

[2xx1xy1JD]

In some cases, cultural competency is a bona fide job qualification, esp. in the mental health field. If you are remove language and cultural barriers between patients/clients and professionals, you can do a better job of servicing people and determining what the real issues are. I would not consider that racism.

[mpheels]

I should clarify, she couldn't get a job in her field of speciality (mental health). There are other jobs under the nursing umbrella she could get.

Was that in the US? If so, it was illegal. You cannot legally hire (or not hire) someone based on their race/ethnicity or sex/gender. You also cannot discriminate based on nationality as long as the candidate is legally able to work. The same generally applies for religion with some obvious exceptions (religious institutions can require clergy to follow their religion). Discrimination absolutely happens in hiring, but interviewers and HR managers usually know enough to not say it out loud. Depending on when that happened to your friend, she could have a case against them.

[Sola]

Sorry but no, racism works both ways. Nobody is denying that racism led to a whole host of shite against non-whites that should never have happened but racism against whites does happen. Not as often as against non-whites, but it does happen.

[itsnikki05]

Didn't we review institutionalized vs individual racism? No, a 10 year old AA boy jumping a white boy and yelling "honky" is not attacking the 10 year old white boy's priviledge. He's attacking him for his skin color, that is racism, of the individual variety.

Slavery, denial of jobs based on skin color, Jim Crow law, that is all under institutionalized racism.

Agree. :clap:

[terranova]

Terranova: Affirmative action gives preference to minority people with equal or almost equal qualifications as majority people. Without it, majority people almost always get the job (even if they are less -sometimes significantly less -qualified). Your friend is not entitled to a job in her field more than people of whatever-ethnic-minority are. I once didn't get a job because I was not team-spirited enough. It wasn't a teamwork-based job and I was more than qualified, but my qualifications weren't a guarantee. The last point on this page does a reasonably good job explaining this concisely: http://www.understandingprejudice.org/r ... affirm.htm

[justlurking]

I should clarify, she couldn't get a job in her field of speciality (mental health). There are other jobs under the nursing umbrella she could get.

I find this story hard to believe...

C'mon now, what interviewer would tell a prospective candidate that they won't hire them because they are "required" to hire "brown people" first? If she was interviewing at a healthcare facility I'm sure they're probably under EEOC. An interviewer who would tell a prospective candidate such things would be at major risk of losing their job because the interviewee would have every right to sue the organization for discrimination.

That said, let's examine the concept of a quota. Let's assume the organization did set a quota as to how many minorities it needed to hire. Once the organization meets that quota it is no longer obligated to continue hiring minorities and can go back to giving jobs to their regular "pool" of applicants (i.e. white people). That essentially means that any minority, who may be more qualified than your friend or other white people, will likely not be considered for a position because the organization has met its quota. I'm sure that race-based fact "really, really sucks" for minorities. Let's say an organization sets a quota that at least 20% of it's workforce need to be minorities. That means 80% of the positions will go to/are available for white people to pursue. If your friend didn't get a certain job because of quotas it's likely due more to other white people who may or may not be more qualified than she getting those positions---but has your friend ever blamed the system for hiring a less qualified white person over her?

I also want to address the concept that is often thrown around of someone being "more qualified" than a minority when it comes to job hiring, college admissions, etc. I find that statement to be inherently racist. How would you know what the other person's qualifications are? Once again, I find it hard to believe that an interviewer would reveal such information about other candidates to a another ("You know Sue, I would've hired you for this position but we have a quota system in place which dictates that I have to hire minorities who are high school drop-outs, and who have only held jobs flipping burgers over white people like you who have a Masters degree in physics and are rocket scientists ".). I think a lot of times people naturally assume that they may be more qualified than minorities, even if there's no evidence to prove otherwise. That, in and of itself is racist! Even if you're friend were truly "more qualified" than some of the minority candidates, who's to say that there weren't other factors (besides her skin color) that prevented her from being offered the position? Maybe your friend sucks at interviewing, maybe the organization decided against filling the position...it could be anything really.

[FaustianSlip]

Another of my friends gets PISSED if you try to tell him white people can't experience racism, because he lived in Korea and said total strangers would make monkey noises at him, because they thought his features resembled those of a chimp.

This. I started laughing when I read the first post, because having lived in Japan and now China, I've absolutely experienced institutionalized racism against white people. It's not at all unusual for business in some areas of Japan to have signs that say, "No foreigners allowed," and while the Japanese Constitution says they're illegal, the courts choose not to enforce those particular laws, so they're allowed to be left up (and enforced by business owners). Look up the Otaru Onsen Case, in which a white man who is a naturalized citizen of Japan, along with the more caucasian-looking of his two daughters, was refused entry to a public bath because the owner said that allowing someone with his appearance inside would cause ethnic Japanese to assume that the establishment was allowing foreigners inside.

This isn't just a Japan thing, either- it happens constantly in China, as well. It's assumed that you'll pay a marked-up price for things at markets, you can be stopped at any time and required to show your passport, people will literally run after you trying to take pictures to post on Weibo. A friend of mine told a cab driver that she was German, and he greeted her with the Nazi salute and told her Hitler had great ideas (!).

The thing is, a lot of people brush these places off, saying, "Oh, yes, well, they're 98 percent Asian, so they just don't know any better, and besides, the U.S. is so much worse!" and that's what really pisses me off. Yes, they do know better, at least most of the time. And if they don't know that that kind of shit isn't okay, they're not going to learn unless someone tells them so. I remember being threatened by a grown man when I was living in Japan while I was at a car park (I think I unwittingly got in the midst of some dispute between him and the wife/girlfriend he was abusing). He was literally lurking outside my car and then attempting to follow me out of the car park. It was utterly terrifying, made moreso by the fact that if something happened and the police were involved, he was in a position to tell them whatever he wanted, and they were very likely to believe him, because he was Japanese, and I am not. It had happened to people I know, and it could just as easily happen to me. I was fortunate enough that the situation didn't escalate to that point, and I got away, but it made a deep impression on me of what it can be like to feel like the organizations you're supposed to trust in an emergency, like the cops, don't have any of your best interests at heart.

So yes, Virginia, racism against whites does exist. You just have to leave Lady Liberty's warm embrace to find some of it.

[Claddagh]

Racism is a two way street.

I'm of mixed race and have received unpleasant comments.

Being part Blackfoot Indian I have had people tell me that I need to "go back to the reservation."

When I was about nine there was a girl who did not like white people and I looked "too white" in her opinion. I'm naturally pale and have blue eyes. She was about twelve or thirteen and quite a bit bigger than me. She would routeenly hit or spit on me for no other reason but for my skin color. I walked home once and my jacket was covered in her spit and the spit of her friends. When I told the teacher what she had done she bounced me off the a brick wall and shouted "If you ever open your fucking cracker mouth again I'll kill you whitey!" I never did tell again and was very grateful when she left at the end of the year.

[smores]

I think my jaw just dropped at the idea that there isn't institutionalized racism in America. I'm mixed race (part white, part pacific islander) and I've seen it from my dad's family to my very white mother - in a hotel in Tennessee, for the record. All of them are American citizens.

Just because you don't experience it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Even in America.

[clover_leigh]

Im so thankful for the internet,because it's taught me so much. Though I still get really confused and dont understand most of it. Its quite complicated. Im half Slavic Russian with Jewish lineage on my father's side. While most American's consider me White,I get a lot of crap for looking more Jewish or sometimes even "Asian" than my family members. My siblings do not know I have a different father than them. Ive never met him or talked to him. I didnt know the truth until I turned 18. But I dont equate that with racism. I havent been denied anything because of that side of my heritage. The most Ive dealt with is my Korean girlfriend's family not liking me,a little bit because Im American and not Asian. But the fact that they dont approve of her sexuality is a bigger issue. I dont know how to even begin to go about having conversations about this stuff,because I cant say I have a fully developed opinion on any of it. Im still learning.

[MyNameIsJonas]

Making a personal choice to marry within your background on the basis that you want a spouse who truly understands you is quite different than dictating who someone ELSE marries in the name of "self-preservation". I get the self-preservation argument (since I've heard similar ones), but question it, and the underlying assumption that one automatically owes a duty of marriage to the group.

Maybe I misread Olive Plant's post but I don't think that she (Olive Plant, I'm sorry in advance, I don't know if you're male or female.) was saying that her friend's parents told him he HAD to marry girl X because of racial reasons, just that they would be more comfortable if he did so. On a personal note, Boyfriend Jonas is white as the driven snow. We began dating just last year and when I told my parents, my dad said, "Jonas, I don't know if I'm comfortable with this. What if his family is really racist? I'm worried someone is going to do something to you." His parents said, "Boyfriend, you can do what you want, but you and Jonas come from completely different worlds." (Which besides me being black, we really haven't had drastically different experiences as far as education, socioeconomic status, etc. While a little skeptical, his family has turned out to be a wonderful and receptive group of allies.) The thing is, in my opinion, American whites don't NEED to preserve themselves. The system does it for them. So I don't blame POC parents for being concerned when their kids date outside of their race. (Also, after encounters with several people from anti-white groups who though I needed "rescuing", I can safely say that I am the last person who thinks that any member of a group owes anything to anyone else.

[green]

I'm Hispanic of mixed race background. One of the biggest problems in the U.S. is that many people think Hispanic is a racial designation when it is actually an umbrella ethnic/culture type term for people who have ties/heritage to areas formerly under the Spanish empire. The term can be used a description for Spanish speakers. There isn't one way to look Hispanic because Hispanics can be be of any race. Hispanics with brown skin are usually mestizo meaning they have a racial admixture of European and Indigenous/Native American background. There are white Hispanics like Gloria Estefan, Julie Gonazalo, and Joanna Garcia and black Hispanics like Zoe Saldana and LaLa Vasquez. In my family, several of my relatives don't have brown skin and some of them have red or blonde hair. My maternal grandmother had blue eyes. The people who are assuming that your mom is Hispanic shouldn't be jumping to conclusions based on how she looks.

Thank you for this! :clap:

A while ago I had to take a connecting flight from the US. I met a very nice mexican woman, who had light brown hair, pale skin and green eyes. The security officers asked her some questions in English and got upset when she couldn't answer. She told me later that the security officers could not believe her first language was Spanish, and were very surprised when she showed them her passport. I agree with you, it is problematic to think that "Hispanic" is a racial designation.

[emmiedahl]

I think probably every person, regardless of their color, can come up with at least a few negative racial experiences.

The difference is that, in the US, white males overwhelmingly have the power. White people *are* the power. We are the dominant culture and others are secondary/less than by default. So prejudice to white people is an occasional uncomfortable moment, or a one-time feeling of righteous anger that someone else was given an advantage. It is an aberration in our lives and not the story of our lives. That is an important thing to keep in mind. How angry, scared, sad, etc did it make you feel when X happened? So imagine if that happened all the fucking time and had been happening since you were an infant? Imagine if laws and power structures encouraged it?

As for racial preservation, I disagree with being mean to someone over their choice of mate. I understand the arguments, but I disagree with them. I know there is pressure in my ethnoreligious group to marry within so you have Jewish babies and begin building again after all the people lost in the Holocaust, pogroms, etc. But I think you should marry whoever is right for you because living a happy life is the best revenge. If having 100% Jewish (or whatever) babies is important to you, then I respect that but I hate the judgment on people who don't find it important. Personally I will not apologize for marrying the person I love.