Forget anti-vaxers, now we have anti-antibiotics

[longskirtlotsakids]

I know a few people on another site who say they don't use antibiotics. One says she's doomsday prepping and keeps all the antibiotics the docs give her and puts them with her stash.

I understand that antibiotics aren't needed for every single little thing (that's how superbugs are created), but there is absolutely a time and place where they're needed.

Not to mention they don't keep very well. Amoxicillin suspension, for instance, is useless within a month. She'd have better luck with shelf stable cattle antibiotics.

By the by, I wonder how soon it is before fundies start treating themselves with veterinary drugs. "We are all sick, and one has a stiff neck and 105 fever, but we will all go to Farm N Barn and pick up a huge bottle of procaine penicillin! One bottle will treat all 7 kids for $40! With this many kids you really have to economize, unlike those stupid worldly women who have one kid and take it to doctors!! Pfft!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Not to mention they don't keep very well. Amoxicillin suspension, for instance, is useless within a month. She'd have better luck with shelf stable cattle antibiotics.

By the by, I wonder how soon it is before fundies start treating themselves with veterinary drugs. "We are all sick, and one has a stiff neck and 105 fever, but we will all go to Farm N Barn and pick up a huge bottle of procaine penicillin! One bottle will treat all 7 kids for $40! With this many kids you really have to economize, unlike those stupid worldly women who have one kid and take it to doctors!! Pfft!

There have been cases of people attempting to induce abortion with vet drugs. I don't know about antibiotics but honestly I wouldn't be surprised if people start going that route, if they truly can't afford anything else.

[Witsec7]

Not to mention they don't keep very well. Amoxicillin suspension, for instance, is useless within a month. She'd have better luck with shelf stable cattle antibiotics.

By the by, I wonder how soon it is before fundies start treating themselves with veterinary drugs. "We are all sick, and one has a stiff neck and 105 fever, but we will all go to Farm N Barn and pick up a huge bottle of procaine penicillin! One bottle will treat all 7 kids for $40! With this many kids you really have to economize, unlike those stupid worldly women who have one kid and take it to doctors!! Pfft!

It's an issue here in Boregonia sad to say. :(

[Wolfie]

Not to mention they don't keep very well. Amoxicillin suspension, for instance, is useless within a month. She'd have better luck with shelf stable cattle antibiotics.

By the by, I wonder how soon it is before fundies start treating themselves with veterinary drugs. "We are all sick, and one has a stiff neck and 105 fever, but we will all go to Farm N Barn and pick up a huge bottle of procaine penicillin! One bottle will treat all 7 kids for $40! With this many kids you really have to economize, unlike those stupid worldly women who have one kid and take it to doctors!! Pfft!

Actually, a friend's dad was a vet, and when they were kids and were prescribed antibiotics, they'd often have the pharmacy at the vet's office fill it for them. (when it was one of the meds that was the same formulation for kids as animals, pediatric Tribrussin is one I can think of- it was odd to see my niece's prescription look just like one I had for my guinea pig!) But the big difference there was that they actually were prescribed the right antibiotics for the illness, not just going out and buying something (I actually have a bottle of cattle penicillin in the fridge that I'm treating the rooster with) and guessing at bacteria and dosages.

[Wolfie]

Of course I could be totally wrong. I guess to me it makes sense on an evolutionary level - people would have eaten what they had access to and would have consumed the whole animal, not just the lean muscle meats. Also, early humans would not have had access to large amounts of processed grains and sugars or to modern vegetable oils.

People also died a lot younger, and of unknown causes because medicine was not as advanced. They also worked a lot harder every day which will use up fat and calories at a much higher rate.

I'm not saying that it's good to eat a lot of processed foods, what bothers me about the Weston A. Price, is the emphasis on meat and saturated fats, and not on vegetables. Every single thing says "Eat butter, Eat lard, Eat pastured meat, Eat raw dairy" and then in the blogs they say "oh and we don't eat many vegetables."

[Angharad Crewe]

People also died a lot younger, and of unknown causes because medicine was not as advanced. They also worked a lot harder every day which will use up fat and calories at a much higher rate.

I'm not saying that it's good to eat a lot of processed foods, what bothers me about the Weston A. Price, is the emphasis on meat and saturated fats, and not on vegetables. Every single thing says "Eat butter, Eat lard, Eat pastured meat, Eat raw dairy" and then in the blogs they say "oh and we don't eat many vegetables."

Yeah I see where you're coming from, it's all about finding a happy balance. I constantly have to evaluate how I feel (emotionally and physically) to figure out if what I'm doing is right or not. I definitely don't eat as many vegetables as I did a few years ago. Not that I don't think that vegetables are important, it's just I find when I eat more meat and seafood, I need to eat a lot less as far as quantity of food. I think the emphasis on lard and butter is that they allow you to absorb important fat soluble vitamins (like Vit. D), which those of us living in northern climates don't get enough of as it is.

Fun fact! Liver is extremely high in a lot of key nutrients. I hate it, but I force myself to eat it once or twice a week, just because I feel a lot better the next day. It's kind of like a gross, slimy multivitamin for me. This chart shows the differences in the amount of nutrients of liver as compared to the same amount of apples and carrots.

http://chriskresser.com/natures-most-potent-superfood

[GiGi_41]

Not to mention they don't keep very well. Amoxicillin suspension, for instance, is useless within a month. She'd have better luck with shelf stable cattle antibiotics.

Well I have to tell you...if you gave your kid shot of Pen G once...they'd have to be really sick the next time so you could catch them! That stuff stings...I was bit by a nice dog after an injection!

Really there is are limited classes of antibiotics that are available for livestock without a prescription from the vet..the FDA and USDA is starting to tighten up because of antibiotics resistance and residues.

I think that veterinarians have a large part in antibiotics resistance development. Until recently sensitivity and resistance cultures were few and far between. Vets would just keep upping the antibiotics strength till something worked. I have a hard time convincing vets that every cat urinary issue isn't going to be cured by amoxicillin. That studies show most cats under the age of 9 don't get UTI...I've also heard that clients aren't happy until you send them home with something. We have a hard time convincing client to finish animal antibiotics.

Now the flu vaccine....well I debate this in my mind all the time. I will tell you that last year kind of made me wonder...my Littles are vaccinated for the flu, but I chose not to this year. Guess what they got? Influenza A, they were sick for a week..guess who was sick for a day? Me and my other half, also not vaccinated, didn't get sick at all. Apparently the vaccine they were vaccinated with wasnt the right strain of virus for this year.

Now I will have them vaccinated again and I probably won't but we'll see.

Riffle

[Witsec7]

...

I think that veterinarians have a large part in antibiotics resistance development. Until recently sensitivity and resistance cultures were few and far between. Vets would just keep upping the antibiotics strength till something worked. I have a hard time convincing vets that every cat urinary issue isn't going to be cured by amoxicillin. That studies show most cats under the age of 9 don't get UTI...I've also heard that clients aren't happy until you send them home with something. We have a hard time convincing client to finish animal antibiotics.

...

Riffle

There are herd health vets who are moving away from antibiotics as well. Some of them are very committed to the limited administration of antibiotics in food animals. I worked at a Vet College and the use of antibiotics was driven by big pharma and for the longest time Extension Vets were loathe to give up the funding that came with the use of big Pharma's meds. It's a slow and incremental change.

[Wolfie]

Now the flu vaccine....well I debate this in my mind all the time. I will tell you that last year kind of made me wonder...my Littles are vaccinated for the flu, but I chose not to this year. Guess what they got? Influenza A, they were sick for a week..guess who was sick for a day? Me and my other half, also not vaccinated, didn't get sick at all. Apparently the vaccine they were vaccinated with wasnt the right strain of virus for this year.

Now I will have them vaccinated again and I probably won't but we'll see.

Riffle

Could it be that you'd been vaccinated or been ill with that strain in the past so you had a less severe version?

And only a day? Even if I have a mild cold I'm stuffy for more than a day. And with influenza I'm achy and stuffy and sick for much longer. (then worn out for at least a few more weeks, it was over a month when I got H1N1.)

[Wolfie]

Fun fact! Liver is extremely high in a lot of key nutrients. I hate it, but I force myself to eat it once or twice a week, just because I feel a lot better the next day. It's kind of like a gross, slimy multivitamin for me. This chart shows the differences in the amount of nutrients of liver as compared to the same amount of apples and carrots.

http://chriskresser.com/natures-most-potent-superfood

Liver also has EXTREMELY high cholesterol. I adore liver and onions myself, but it's a very, very, very rare treat for me because of the high cholesterol content. http://caloriecount.about.com/calories- ... ver-i13327

[rock_girl]

Could it be that you'd been vaccinated or been ill with that strain in the past so you had a less severe version?

And only a day? Even if I have a mild cold I'm stuffy for more than a day. And with influenza I'm achy and stuffy and sick for much longer. (then worn out for at least a few more weeks, it was over a month when I got H1N1.)

I read somewhere that most people who think they have the flu only have a cold. Seems about right. I know I like to moan about being on death's door when I catch a cold. More pity-soup that way.

[Witsec7]

Liver also has EXTREMELY high cholesterol. I adore liver and onions myself, but it's a very, very, very rare treat for me because of the high cholesterol content. http://caloriecount.about.com/calories- ... ver-i13327

I used to be a big lover of organ meats but in the past decade I'm concerned about residuals that may be in the livers. And well the cholesterol just isn't worth it to me at this point after all the work I've done to bring it down.

[Wolfie]

I read somewhere that most people who think they have the flu only have a cold. Seems about right. I know I like to moan about being on death's door when I catch a cold. More pity-soup that way.

Yes, I can only think of three times when I actually had the flu- the last time was H1N1, and I've always gotten a flu shot since then. I do think that a person can get a minor case of the flu and think it's a cold, but I agree that the other way around is much more common. (the other two times I'm sure it was the flu was about 7 years ago when I got walking pneumonia as a complication afterwards, and a time in high school that I was miserable for about a month. (during the worst of it, my mom would send me to school, then my math teacher would send me home- she was a friend of my parents. For unknown reasons my mom was terrified that we would fake being sick- we never did, but she had a fear of it and would send us to school even if we claimed to be sick.)

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I used to be a big lover of organ meats but in the past decade I'm concerned about residuals that may be in the livers. And well the cholesterol just isn't worth it to me at this point after all the work I've done to bring it down.

It's a FILTER, after all... :)

Actually I've never been a fan of liver because of the powdery texture of it (though I'll eat it if served). My mother loves it though, she orders "livers" at yakitori even (so it's a stick of just livers).

Lots of the Weston Price fans in Alaska were writing about bone marrow broth, which had me wondering just what that's about.

[Arete]

Could it be that you'd been vaccinated or been ill with that strain in the past so you had a less severe version?

And only a day? Even if I have a mild cold I'm stuffy for more than a day. And with influenza I'm achy and stuffy and sick for much longer. (then worn out for at least a few more weeks, it was over a month when I got H1N1.)

Everyone has to remember that when I flu vaccine is produced, it is only the best guess of which strain of influenza is going to be dominant for the season. Most of the time it is very accurate, but some years another strain may gain dominance.

As for being sick for only a day, GiGi_41, I can almost guarantee that what you had was a cold and not the flu. Flu is not a one day affair even for a robustly healthy individual.

Full disclosure-I have gotten a flu shot every year for the last 15 years. My last bout of flu was a "Come to Jesus" experience. No hospitalization, but I will NEVER forget the pain. The feeling like someone had actually beaten me. Never again.

[B5SnowDog]

And only a day? Even if I have a mild cold I'm stuffy for more than a day. And with influenza I'm achy and stuffy and sick for much longer. (then worn out for at least a few more weeks, it was over a month when I got H1N1.)

Yeah, my husband was out of commission for quite a while when he caught H1N1 and he rarely gets sick. The exhaustion was the worst symptom for him.

[Arete]

It's a FILTER, after all... :)

Actually I've never been a fan of liver because of the powdery texture of it (though I'll eat it if served). My mother loves it though, she orders "livers" at yakitori even (so it's a stick of just livers).

Lots of the Weston Price fans in Alaska were writing about bone marrow broth, which had me wondering just what that's about.

I see your mother and raise you one that keeps the organ packages from the whole chickens in her freezer until she has enough to make fried chicken livers and onions. It makes her as happy as eating a slice of good chocolate cake makes me.

For the record, I love broth made of oxtails or beef shanks.

[SpeakNow]

The one year I didn't get a flu shot I came down with strep and the flu at the same time. It felt like it took an eternity to get over that. If I hadn't had antibiotics it would have been so much worse.

[Witsec7]

It's a FILTER, after all... :)

Actually I've never been a fan of liver because of the powdery texture of it (though I'll eat it if served). My mother loves it though, she orders "livers" at yakitori even (so it's a stick of just livers).

Lots of the Weston Price fans in Alaska were writing about bone marrow broth, which had me wondering just what that's about.

Fatty marrow bones were a fashion at the turn of the century and now are back in vogue with nose to tail cooking. If you like gelatinous buttery fat they are the ticket. I do have an old marrow spoon in my archaic silverware collection. They are hard to find without a real butcher, shin bones will do.

Aretejo: I love a good oxtail soup after the fat is off the broth.

[BlackHawk]

As someone who ended up at urgent care today feeling like death, I will say I am very thankful for antibiotics. I have infections from hell... which are my own fault for not taking care of them sooner. Sinus infection, both ears infected (as a damn grown adult.. double ear infection.. makes me cranky), gunk in my lungs, possible strep (rapid strep said no, but the blisters in my throat say yes)..... I am very thankful for the damn antibiotics the doc Rx for me. I can't understand people who think doctors and medical professionals in general are out to kill them and ruin their bodies. These people need to do some damn research.

(I apologize if I'm coming off cranky... I'm sick and can't sleep and can't lay down cause I can't breathe... All of that will make a person cranky dammit.)

[B5SnowDog]

I see your mother and raise you one that keeps the organ packages from the whole chickens in her freezer until she has enough to make fried chicken livers and onions. It makes her as happy as eating a slice of good chocolate cake makes me.

For the record, I love broth made of oxtails or beef shanks.

Every now and then I get a craving for livers and gizzards. One of the local chicken places sells them on Mondays.

[synchroswimr]

As someone who ended up at urgent care today feeling like death, I will say I am very thankful for antibiotics. I have infections from hell... which are my own fault for not taking care of them sooner. Sinus infection, both ears infected (as a damn grown adult.. double ear infection.. makes me cranky), gunk in my lungs, possible strep (rapid strep said no, but the blisters in my throat say yes)..... I am very thankful for the damn antibiotics the doc Rx for me. I can't understand people who think doctors and medical professionals in general are out to kill them and ruin their bodies. These people need to do some damn research.

(I apologize if I'm coming off cranky... I'm sick and can't sleep and can't lay down cause I can't breathe... All of that will make a person cranky dammit.)

Yuck!! You have every right to be cranky. That stinks. Feel better soon!

[MonkeyMomma]

So, when I was 17, I had a nasty case of strep. I was laid up in bed with a fever, doing anything I could to soothe my throat. My mom didn't want to take me to the doctor because they would "just" give me antibiotics.

A few days later, I fainted in the bathroom, coming to on the way to the floor when my chin hit the sink. I had a splotchy, red rash all over my body, and I stopped peeing and started retaining water. THEN my mom took me to the doctor. Our doctor was stumped. She actually said to me, "It look like Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, but if it was that, you'd be bead by now." (Thanks.) Urinalysis showed that my kidneys were "shutting down." Admitted to the hospital for observation, hooked up to an IV for a few days, the rash cleared, and I started peeing like a normal person. My mom still credits my getting better to a miraculous healing thanks to the intercession of the Virgin Mary. I'm serious.

Fast forward to 12 years later, me sitting in Microbiology. Oh, lo and behold, why do doctors treat strep with antibiotics? Because 1) you can kill it with antibiotics, and 2) 3% of people will go into kidney failure with an untreated infection. If the Virgin Mary was involved, I hope it was to tell the doctors at that backwoods hospital to put some strong antibiotics in my IV.

FWIW, my mom is also anti-vax. It was pretty bizarre for her when I turned 18 and got caught up on all my vaccines, then fully vaccinated my kid.

Yes, antibiotics can be overprescribed or inappropriately prescribed, and if offered an antibiotic, it's important to ask why, what it's for, and to finish the whole course.

But I, for one, would prefer 10 days of antibiotics to a hospital stay with a "mystery" disease because scarlet fever is unheard of thanks to modern medicine.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yeah, my husband was out of commission for quite a while when he caught H1N1 and he rarely gets sick. The exhaustion was the worst symptom for him.

I remember telling a friend I thought I had flu..she told me if I had to think about it I most probably did not. When I did then some years later get Flu..same friend asked me if I felt getting up to go to the loo was like climbing a mountain..I said are you kidding..I considered peeing the bed.

I receive the Vaccination as part of my work annually. Other than that it is not offered routinely here except to vulnerable individuals and the elderly.

[B5SnowDog]

The flu vaccine is one that my neurologist told me to avoid. I was really lucky not to catch it when my husband got sick.