Forget anti-vaxers, now we have anti-antibiotics

[Wolfie]

In a country with such bad health coverage, people who are not covered will not get the vaccine, for the same reason they wait until last minute to go see a doctor and end up with higher bills.

Actually, in all the counties where I have lived they have offered low cost to free drive through flu vaccination clinics, no documentation involved. The flu vaccine is probably the easiest one to get.

And yes, I got mine last year- I have had the flu twice- two of those times it took over a month to get over the fatigue afterwards, and the other time I got walking pneumonia. I don't need to risk it since it's not like I can take time off of work to recover.

[Wolfie]

Pertussis incidence is increasing, alarmingly, but its not due to lack of vaccination. DTaP isn't working very well.

But, as we've discussed on other threads, the people who get it because their vaccine wore off earlier than expected (which is why the recommendations for when to get boosters have changed), aren't getting as bad of a case. The people without vaccinations are still at just as much risk of getting a very serious case.

[Wolfie]

The flu does not typically present with a runny/stuffy/sneezing nose, a cold does. The flu will also produce a higher fever and acute malaise, recovery is typically 10 days. Let's put it this way, if you can get up and post a FB status that you have the flu, you likely have a cold.

Meh, it depends on the person. I've driven myself to urgent care where they looked at me and wondered how I did it and told me that I should never attempt to do anything in that state again. I don't have much of a choice, I live alone.

However, it's more of a move slightly, lay down wherever I am, move slightly again, ect... until things get done, like getting liquid into myself or feeding the animals.

[Deleted03]

Actually, in all the counties where I have lived they have offered low cost to free drive through flu vaccination clinics, no documentation involved. The flu vaccine is probably the easiest one to get.

And yes, I got mine last year- I have had the flu twice- two of those times it took over a month to get over the fatigue afterwards, and the other time I got walking pneumonia. I don't need to risk it since it's not like I can take time off of work to recover.

Then you're more sensitive. Every time I had it (I remember 3 times for sure, maybe before too. I just happen to catch colds and flus (otitis and throat stuff) more often than for instance gastro-intestinal stuff) I had mostly 3-4 days of having to stay in bed (I also happen to faint when I have the flu, so yep staying in bed is just better) and then it takes some time to be back to 100% but not the end of the world to me (but then again when I have a cold I usually have 5 days of brain fog so it's not out of the ordinary), I did cough for a long time after H1N1 (although I was not diagnosed, it happened right when Mexico declared its cases, which was at the tail end of their epidemic. But H1N1 was also a stronger strand of the flu. If you think you have stronger symptoms and you don't want to go through that, well good for you, have the vaccine. It really does not change the argument to not administer it to everyone every year.

[Wolfie]

I think I'd rather follow the UK and France, more intervention conservative. They vaccinate those at risk and talk about other methods of prevention for the others. I don't know the numbers but I still doubt there are more death in France and in the UK because of the flu. For a vaccine that only covers three strands (by the way H1N1 is again there for the second or third consecutive year) and that has about 60% efficacy it might just not make a difference.

As much as I hate to think about it, I would hate to see what would happen if a really bad flu epidemic happened, and the US and Canada were better vaccinated, but it spread through Europe. There hasn't been a really bad one in a long time. In 1918, the disease moved too fast for a vaccine to be very effective once it started going though. I've also seen photographs from that epidemic- bodies piled outside on corners because there wasn't a way to get them picked up fast enough, and people died that fast from the strain.

[Wolfie]

Then you're more sensitive. Every time I had it (I remember 3 times for sure, maybe before too. I just happen to catch colds and flus (otitis and throat stuff) more often than for instance gastro-intestinal stuff) I had mostly 3-4 days of having to stay in bed (I also happen to faint when I have the flu, so yep staying in bed is just better) and then it takes some time to be back to 100% but not the end of the world to me (but then again when I have a cold I usually have 5 days of brain fog so it's not out of the ordinary), I did cough for a long time after H1N1 (although I was not diagnosed, it happened right when Mexico declared its cases, which was at the tail end of their epidemic. But H1N1 was also a stronger strand of the flu. If you think you have stronger symptoms and you don't want to go through that, well good for you, have the vaccine. It really does not change the argument to not administer it to everyone every year.

I don't think I'm any more sensitive, as I generally only have colds for about a week and then they're gone. I'm exposed to more than the average person, as I teach hundreds of kids a week, but then the normal person is out in public daily too.

By administering it to everyone, every year, it prevents outbreaks, it also prevents those who can't be immunized from catching it from somebody who could be immunized. But we've repeated that many times.

BTW- I had my flu shot yesterday. Feeling a little icky today, but that's also due to antibiotics because of the infected cyst, and probably the infected cyst.

[Deleted03]

As much as I hate to think about it, I would hate to see what would happen if a really bad flu epidemic happened, and the US and Canada were better vaccinated, but it spread through Europe. There hasn't been a really bad one in a long time. In 1918, the disease moved too fast for a vaccine to be very effective once it started going though. I've also seen photographs from that epidemic- bodies piled outside on corners because there wasn't a way to get them picked up fast enough, and people died that fast from the strain.

Don't they know the strength of the virus strands when they put them in the vaccines? Wouldn't they know how much of an epidemic it could do? Don't you think people in Europe are also able to assess the risk of this scenario happening?

[Arete]

Sophie, I do not think you are an idiot (far from it) and I have not called you an idiot. I do think you are misguided on this, but you are staying within your country's mandate.

On the statement you made about most doctors and nurses in France not getting the flu vaccine, I will say this-They are not only idiots, they are unethical idiots.

[Arete]

People sometimes underestimate risks. That too, is part of assessment. Do you think the US and Canada have some type of sinister motive for extending the vaccine mandate? (I'm just trying to assess if you believe the CDC and HealthCanada are "Pharma shills".

[Minerva]

Thanks, guys. My mom was always mildly anti-vax (we got shots for all the stuff that was life-threatening to us, but none of those new-fangled flu shots), and every time I think I've corrected every misconception I had, someone points out another one. I have no doubt pharmaceutical companies have influence in what doctors recommend (I've seen it at work, in fact), but science generally shows blind mistrust of vaccinations to be more harmful. I still don't know what to think about getting Gardasil, either. My mom joined the people flipping out about Gardasil and how it was brand spanking new! and they didn't test it enough because they wanted to sell it to the government and profit as soon as possible! and two girls died mysteriously within 24 hours of getting the shot! and zomg it's for an STI everyone clutch your pearls! Clearly I need to do more reading. Getting the flu shot for others makes sense (I wouldn't get it for myself - my body's a beast at fighting off viruses, I've never had anything viral last more than a few days), but I'll need to do a bunch of reading about it before I'm comfortable having it injected into me given the years of paranoia I was exposed to.

And I somehow doubt anyone, let alone an entire healthcare system, would use widespread vaccination as an alternative to other methods of curbing influenza when they could use them both at once. At this point most people know that getting a flu shot can't stop you from catching the myriad of other nasty things that are going around in the winter

[Deleted03]

People sometimes underestimate risks. That too, is part of assessment. Do you think the US and Canada have some type of sinister motive for extending the vaccine mandate? (I'm just trying to assess if you believe the CDC and HealthCanada are "Pharma shills".

meh they are, but honestly the way the H1N1 was handled in France shows that they're not far behind. I think it's easier for the US and Canada where there is no expectations of the vaccine being made free to everyone (although maybe it is in Canada in some provinces, I never tried to get it so I don't really know).

I don't think there is any "pure" scientific knowledge that would bring a single policy outcome out of the conclusions. So I'm just wary of "it's scientific fact!!!11!!!" Yes but it does not mean that knowledge won't change in the future (either way, I'm open to that).

I read on the other hand that they were trying to devise a general flu vaccine. Might be more interested in that with a lot of testing.

Thanks, guys. My mom was always mildly anti-vax (we got shots for all the stuff that was life-threatening to us, but none of those new-fangled flu shots), and every time I think I've corrected every misconception I had, someone points out another one. I have no doubt pharmaceutical companies have influence in what doctors recommend (I've seen it at work, in fact), but science generally shows blind mistrust of vaccinations to be more harmful. I still don't know what to think about getting Gardasil, either. My mom joined the people flipping out about Gardasil and how it was brand spanking new! and they didn't test it enough because they wanted to sell it to the government and profit as soon as possible! and two girls died mysteriously within 24 hours of getting the shot! and zomg it's for an STI everyone clutch your pearls! Clearly I need to do more reading. Getting the flu shot for others makes sense (I wouldn't get it for myself - my body's a beast at fighting off viruses, I've never had anything viral last more than a few days), but I'll need to do a bunch of reading about it before I'm comfortable having it injected into me given the years of paranoia I was exposed to.

And I somehow doubt anyone, let alone an entire healthcare system, would use widespread vaccination as an alternative to other methods of curbing influenza when they could use them both at once. At this point most people know that getting a flu shot can't stop you from catching the myriad of other nasty things that are going around in the winter

Disclaimer: I have not looked at the research recently, I looked at it when it came out through professional work. (but I'm not a doctor!)

What you are bringing out was extremely relevant when the vaccine was first approved and distributed. There actually were doctors who published in the Lancet (one of the few independent medical journals) articles worrying about it and pointing out the lack of long term effects assessment. There were other concerning factors, where every country had a different standard for giving the vaccine.

I still haven't done it and I guess I only have a couple months left to do so. I haven't looked again at research, but I think personally I'd be more comfortable making a decision when I have kids and there's been more years of research on it. Like I said, I haven't looked into the research recently, so if you are still in the window of opportunity, research it and make your own mind!

[Wolfie]

meh they are, but honestly the way the H1N1 was handled in France shows that they're not far behind. I think it's easier for the US and Canada where there is no expectations of the vaccine being made free to everyone (although maybe it is in Canada in some provinces, I never tried to get it so I don't really know).

Obviously you didn't read what I posted.

The flu vaccine is one of the few that I have seen available free for everybody most years. I've gotten flyers for four different clinics at work just this year. I have gotten fliers in every single county I have worked or lived in for the past 10 years or so.

just googling turns up all these links. http://www.google.com/search?client=saf ... 8&oe=UTF-8

[Wolfie]

Don't they know the strength of the virus strands when they put them in the vaccines? Wouldn't they know how much of an epidemic it could do? Don't you think people in Europe are also able to assess the risk of this scenario happening?

As somebody else said- it's all an estimate.

If they estimate wrong, a person who has been getting their flu shots for years will likely be better protected, because they will likely be protected from similar strains and it will provide some protection from the new flu. (it has been proven that some pandemics didn't affect older people as much because they had been alive during a previous epidemic and survived, so they had antibodies.)

[Deleted03]

Obviously you didn't read what I posted.

The flu vaccine is one of the few that I have seen available free for everybody most years. I've gotten flyers for four different clinics at work just this year. I have gotten fliers in every single county I have worked or lived in for the past 10 years or so.

so in France and the UK you saw with your eyes it's free? it's weird because as I was reading the NHS page I read this woman's comment who wanted to get herself and her daughter the vaccine (no risk factors) and she could get it in the private sector (I assume she is paying), but she could not find a doctor that would vaccinate her daughter.

Here in the US NorthEast you have to pay for it.

ETA: since you edited while I was responding. At Walgreens and the University center you have to pay for it. Not everyone lives in a big city. I checked in my city and there is one 3 hour session, no repeat. So no, it's not what I would call providing flu shots for free for everyone... certainly different from Europe.

[Boogalou]

I've gotten a flu shot every year for as long as I can remember. When I was young it was because my parents forced me to, and I can assure there were some epic battles regarding me and needles when I was little. Especially because there was a time when I had to get two flu shots because I was too young for the single dose. Sad times. Anyway, I get it because I am around older grandparents and my mom has a compromised immune system. I also really do not want to be laid up with the flu for extended periods of time so if I get the shot the odds of that happening are improved.

Also, in Ontario flu shots are free to any Ontario resident who wants one. You just give them your health card and they poke your arm, WHAT A DEAL! It's never made me sick, it just gives me a mildly uncomfortable arm for a day or two.

[Wolfie]

so in France and the UK you saw with your eyes it's free? it's weird because as I was reading the NHS page I read this woman's comment who wanted to get herself and her daughter the vaccine (no risk factors) and she could get it in the private sector (I assume she is paying), but she could not find a doctor that would vaccinate her daughter.

Here in the US NorthEast you have to pay for it.

ETA: since you edited while I was responding. At Walgreens and the University center you have to pay for it. Not everyone lives in a big city. I checked in my city and there is one 3 hour session, no repeat. So no, it's not what I would call providing flu shots for free for everyone... certainly different from Europe.

HUH? I was pointing out that many people in the US expect to get it free now, unlike what you said. No, it's not a case of just going to the doctor to get it, but it is offered free.

[OkToBeTakei]

As somebody else said- it's all an estimate.

If they estimate wrong, a person who has been getting their flu shots for years will likely be better protected, because they will likely be protected from similar strains and it will provide some protection from the new flu. (it has been proven that some pandemics didn't affect older people as much because they had been alive during a previous epidemic and survived, so they had antibodies.)

Influenza virus mutates too quickly for that type of protection. Any vaccination only confers protection for a limited, few number of years. The reason the older generation who were alive during previous epidemics were immune, was not because they were immune through vaccination, but naturally. ie. The antibodies were present because they had contracted the virus.

edited so it looked kind of like English

[OkToBeTakei]

Obviously you didn't read what I posted.

The flu vaccine is one of the few that I have seen available free for everybody most years. I've gotten flyers for four different clinics at work just this year. I have gotten fliers in every single county I have worked or lived in for the past 10 years or so.

just googling turns up all these links. http://www.google.com/search?client=saf ... 8&oe=UTF-8

Not to spark another emotive battle (difficult at times with these issues) But I wil ponder anyway.

In the UK the FluVac is offered free to all elderly and vulnerable individuals. Health professionals etc. It is not offered free to an otherwise healthy population as they are deemed low risk and while Influenza can be fatal in rare isolated cases in this group, for most it is a thoroughly unpleasant illness.

When I read the statistics for the vaccine uptake in the US often times the economic cost is spoken about. Could this perhaps be the reason for the different approach?

[emmiedahl]

I have never lived anywhere that the flu vaccine is free, fwiw. I get it every year. My health department website has a list of places I can get it for between $20 and $57, but the health department does not do shots themselves. The range of prices is interesting, though.

[jenny_islander]

A friend of mine got strep, which proved to be an antibiotic-resistant strain. Her tonsils are now involved. She has breathing and blood clotting issues that make surgery more dangerous for her than it is for the average person. Nevertheless, she is going in to get her tonsils out because if she doesn't, the odds that the infection will spread throughout her entire lymphatic system and kill her go up every single day. She has three dependents and her husband's job takes him out of the state for months at a time.

A young daughter of a former employer caught a rapidly progressing strain of strep. Without antibiotics, strep often progresses to scarlet fever, which can cause lifelong problems: joint issues, kidney damage, liver damage, brain damage. Luckily her parents took her to the doctor as soon as they realized that this wasn't "just" a sore throat (due to the characteristic scarlet fever rash, which in her case appeared within hours of the first symptom of strep). The doctor put her on antibiotics and she was just fine a week later.

I have to wonder whether people who don't believe in taking antibiotics at all have ever seen somebody get really, really sick.

[Minerva]

I've never heard of anyone having to pay for a flu shot in Ontario, regardless of how at risk they were. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[OkToBeTakei]

I've never heard of anyone having to pay for a flu shot in Ontario, regardless of how at risk they were. Correct me if I'm wrong.

By 'free' who actually pays for it?

[Arete]

The county I live in offers several free flu clinics for those 65 and older. All you need is proof of age and residence. No insurance cards are required.

The rest of our county's residents who have no insurance are assured a locked in rate of 25 USD this year. Anyone on our state's Medicaid program gets free flu shots. There are usually disparities between state to state in the US for flu vaccine costs to the uninsured.

[Wolfie]

By 'free' who actually pays for it?

I find this question amusing going along with your avatar.

If it's in Canada, I would assume it's part of the national healthcare- so it's paid out of tax money. The US clinics are paid through a variety of sources, often county healthcare funds (it's cheaper than dealing with a lot of sick people, and the loss of work and toll on the economy).

[Boogalou]

By 'free' who actually pays for it?

The government.