Forget anti-vaxers, now we have anti-antibiotics

[DarkAnts]

We reviewed the nuances with the flu vaccine.

I want to address your point of cost. These are the numbers for the US-Infuenza causes 20,000 deaths and about 200,000 hospitalizations a year. Let's do the math. An infuenza vaccine costs 25 USD. A funeral, antivirals, or 3 days in the hospital are all orders of magnitude more expensive. Even if you vaccinated EVERYONE, the vaccine wins as a cost effect measure hands down.

Don't get the vaccine, but don't pretend you are on the same or higher moral ground as those who do. You have bought into the anti vaccination hysteria.

Here's some more numbers. About 10-60% of illnesses in a given season that seem like the flu are actually caused by influenza. Influenza is highly contagious, and has anywhere between a 20-50% transmission rate.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I work in a place the requires the vaccination. Its required to protect the students. It seems people forget that the flu vaccination is a two fold protection 1) it protects you from getting it 2) it protects you from spreading it to vulnerable populations.

[rock_girl]

Guillain barré-you do understand that this is not an issue with today's vaccine? It's a red herring.

You can teach people all you want, you are never going to even get close to 100% compliance with good hygiene standards. Your friend is exhibit A.

No, I do not have to respect their choice. The only thing to do is accept their choice until they are force to change. Yes, forced to change. My grandmother would not allow her children to be vaccinated for polio when the vaccine came out. There were reports that in some cases, it actually cause the disease, because they were using a live vaccine. Guess what? The decision was taken out of her hands. Because so many parents were like her, the state distributed the vaccines in school. She never saw another polio epidemic, and I'm sure she was grateful.

:clap: :clap: I'm so sick of being told to respect other people's choices when it comes to the vaccination issue. Living and participating in a society requires that you act responsibly. You don't hear drunks ranting on about the rest of us needing to respect their choice to drink and drive. I'm looking forward to the day that an up to date vaccination schedule, with exemptions solely for medical reasons, is required for children to enter school and parents to get tax breaks. Family benefits here are ridiculously generous and it seems unreasonable that parasites who put their own children and the rest of the community in danger should receive benefits from the society they've chosen to harm.

Actually, I'd like to go even further. If you reject vaccination for yourself and your child(ren), then you foot the bill for all medical costs resulting from preventable disease. I don't think carrots are working right now. It seems like we need very, very big sticks to protect babies, those who can't be vaccinated and the imunocompromised.

[Deleted03]

We reviewed the nuances with the flu vaccine.

I want to address your point of cost. These are the numbers for the US-Infuenza causes 20,000 deaths and about 200,000 hospitalizations a year. Let's do the math. An infuenza vaccine costs 25 USD. A funeral, antivirals, or 3 days in the hospital are all orders of magnitude more expensive. Even if you vaccinated EVERYONE, the vaccine wins as a cost effect measure hands down.

Don't get the vaccine, but don't pretend you are on the same or higher moral ground as those who do. You have bought into the anti vaccination hysteria.

Here's some more numbers. About 10-60% of illnesses in a given season that seem like the flu are actually caused by influenza. Influenza is highly contagious, and has anywhere between a 20-50% transmission rate.

Right and of those deaths, you have numbers how many were caused by the strains covered by the vaccine per year?

I'll leave you on your pedestal. Keep your moral high ground where it is better to force everyone to take medicine, and not trust other methods of prevention because people can't be taught ever.

I have no interest in continuing the ever going debate where one side treats the other as mentally retarded, immoral and irresponsible individuals. Again this is really not how to convince others of anything, but you know since you want it to be government mandated I guess it's not that important.

[DarkAnts]

:clap: :clap: I'm so sick of being told to respect other people's choices when it comes to the vaccination issue. Living and participating in a society requires that you act responsibly. You don't hear drunks ranting on about the rest of us needing to respect their choice to drink and drive. I'm looking forward to the day that an up to date vaccination schedule, with exemptions solely for medical reasons, is required for children to enter school and parents to get tax breaks. Family benefits here are ridiculously generous and it seems unreasonable that parasites who put their own children and the rest of the community in danger should receive benefits from the society they've chosen to harm.

Actually, I'd like to go even further. If you reject vaccination for yourself and your child(ren), then you foot the bill for all medical costs resulting from preventable disease. I don't think carrots are working right now. It seems like we need very, very big sticks to protect babies, those who can't be vaccinated and the imunocompromised.

Parents with vaccinated children should be allowed to choose to have their child in a class with unvaccinated children.

[Arete]

Right and of those deaths, you have numbers how many were caused by the strains covered by the vaccine per year?

I'll leave you on your pedestal. Keep your moral high ground where it is better to force everyone to take medicine, and not trust other methods of prevention because people can't be taught ever.

I have no interest in continuing the ever going debate where one side treats the other as mentally retarded, immoral and irresponsible individuals. Again this is really not how to convince others of anything, but you know since you want it to be government mandated I guess it's not that important.

I am definitely on the extreme end of the pro vaccination spectrum. You vaccinate everyone unless there is a medical contraindication. However, I am just as happy to see vaccine rates go up by an aggressive beat down of the lies being sold by the anti vaccine movement, and that people buy. I have seen anti vaccine groups flood forums and editorial responses with form letters, and I am sick of the fact that there is not the same aggressive push back by people who have science and numbers on their side. Saying that the flu vaccine doesn't contribute to herd immunity is false. Saying that the flu vaccine is not cost effective is false. Saying that two choices are always equally good is false.

[Arete]

Parents with vaccinated children should be allowed to choose to have their child in a class with unvaccinated children.

QFT on rock_girl and shewearsfunnyhats points.

Actually, the daycare one of my nieces goes to has had to institute rooms for vaccinated and unvaccinated children. It's not in Washington State, but in another state where the anti vaccine hysteria is affecting the affluent parents.

[DarkAnts]

Right and of those deaths, you have numbers how many were caused by the strains covered by the vaccine per year?

I'll leave you on your pedestal. Keep your moral high ground where it is better to force everyone to take medicine, and not trust other methods of prevention because people can't be taught ever.

I have no interest in continuing the ever going debate where one side treats the other as mentally retarded, immoral and irresponsible individuals. Again this is really not how to convince others of anything, but you know since you want it to be government mandated I guess it's not that important.

Most of the deaths come from complication due to having the flu. The very young, the very old and the immunosuppressed are the ones that are most at risk. They are also the ones that are more likely to not qualify for vaccinations. I had to fight with my doctor for years before I could get a flu vaccination because I am allergic to eggs. My allergist finally tested me and found out that I am not allergic to the vaccination. I still have to go to the allergist for my vaccination. I have to sit in the waiting room for 2 hours with liquid benadryl in hand in case there is an allergic reaction.

Before that, I relied on others to get the vaccination to keep me safe. I am a high risk because I have asthma and allergies. You can stay on your pedestal if you want. But know that people who cant get the vaccination for medical reasons relay on others to get it so they have some heard immunity.

[DarkAnts]

QFT on rock_girl and shewearsfunnyhats points.

Actually, the daycare one of my nieces goes to has had to institute rooms for vaccinated and unvaccinated children. It's not in Washington State, but in another state where the anti vaccine hysteria is affecting the affluent parents.

Now if only public schools would do the same thing. I have always been in the high risk population so I know what its like to fear getting sick from preventable diseases.

[Deleted03]

I am definitely on the extreme end of the pro vaccination spectrum. You vaccinate everyone unless there is a medical contraindication. However, I am just as happy to see vaccine rates go up by an aggressive beat down of the lies being sold by the anti vaccine movement, and that people buy. I have seen anti vaccine groups flood forums and editorial responses with form letters, and I am sick of the fact that there is not the same aggressive push back by people who have science and numbers on their side. Saying that the flu vaccine doesn't contribute to herd immunity is false. Saying that the flu vaccine is not cost effective is false. Saying that two choices are always equally good is false.

In a country with such bad health coverage, people who are not covered will not get the vaccine, for the same reason they wait until last minute to go see a doctor and end up with higher bills.

You have herd immunity, on 3 strands. That's it. that's not herd immunity against the flu, it's herd immunity against three strands of the flu, that may (but maybe not this year) be the most prevalent that particular year. That is what I meant. and I do not believe that I am wrong on that statement. Getting the flu vaccine is not a magical bullet and I don't think you can compare it to other vaccines where viruses or bacteria just don't evolve as fast as the flu viruses do.

I understand your frustration, but I don't think telling others they are stupid, buy into madness, or have the moral lower ground is really going to help.

I repeat again, I am here talking about the flu vaccine.

[DarkAnts]

In a country with such bad health coverage, people who are not covered will not get the vaccine, for the same reason they wait until last minute to go see a doctor and end up with higher bills.

You have herd immunity, on 3 strands. That's it. that's not herd immunity against the flu, it's herd immunity against three strands of the flu, that may (but maybe not this year) be the most prevalent that particular year. That is what I meant. and I do not believe that I am wrong on that statement. Getting the flu vaccine is not a magical bullet and I don't think you can compare it to other vaccines where viruses or bacteria just don't evolve as fast as the flu viruses do.

I understand your frustration, but I don't think telling others they are stupid, buy into madness, or have the moral lower ground is really going to help.

I repeat again, I am here talking about the flu vaccine.

Those three strains are usually the ones that pop up in the town I live in. Its a small college town so we all know whats going around. The people who make the flu vaccine have been able to predict what strains are going to be the most prevalent to a great degree of accuracy. If they could not do this then there would not be a flu vaccination each year. Besides, the vaccinations will stack. Each year, your body learns to fight three more strains of flu. This gives you and the people you interact with another level of protection.

[fedelm]

However, I am just as happy to see vaccine rates go up by an aggressive beat down of the lies being sold by the anti vaccine movement, and that people buy.

Luckily vaccination levels are at an historic high. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbo ... verage.pdf

[rock_girl]

I wish our schools had the option of separating vaccinated and unvaccinated children. It might make parents stop and think about the impact their actions have on other people were they to see their speshul snowflakes segregated from the rest of the school.

Obviously this is going to impact on a child's education. But the children are already learning from their parents that there's no point respecting science and that if you're special enough (conscientious objector forms) you've no need to contribute to the community by playing your part and maintaining herd immunity. I'd rather see a few children inconvenienced now in order that these silly parents wake up to themselves and take them in for vaccination. Of course there are going to be a few stubborn holdouts, but for the majority, their beliefs are based on such shaky evidence that I've no doubt hitting the hip pocket will force these parents to do some more 'research' and arrive at a pro-vax conclusion.

[Arete]

Sophie, in a country without universal care, your analogy is evidence that it is cheaper for the state to suck up the cost of vaccinating as opposed to the cost of the disease and it's spread. You also forgot to mention that the 3 strains that are covered are the 3 most prevalent strains. Let's ignore the evidence that even with having to predict which strain is going to be most prevalent (and this is done with the scientific method, not pulling a strain type out of a hat as if it were a lottery), the flu vaccine does prevent actual illnesses and save actual lives. It is inconvient that you need a new one every year, but that isn't an arguement that it isn't cost effective or disease preventive.

If you think I'm being hard on you, you should have heard the conversation I was having with one of my sibs a week ago. She lives in an extremely crunchy area and gets this false information coming at her constantly. I cannot treat a no vax decision like it's equal to a pro vax. Not vaccinating kills people.

[Arete]

Luckily vaccination levels are at an historic high. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbo ... verage.pdf

It is good to see that upward trend. :D However, last year in the US we had whopping cough and measles cases in several states. There should not be this kind of back sliding.

[maybeizfundie]

What is it with herd immunity being a "joke"? It seems like a completely rational and logical concept. Simple enough that I can visualize it.

Someone wasn't happy up thread, thinking this isn't a fundie issue. It is. Both in the sense than many, many fundies have gone completely bonkers about "natural health" and that anti-vaxxers are often extraordinarily fundamentalist in their views about it, regardless of their religion.

[Deleted03]

Sophie, in a country without universal care, your analogy is evidence that it is cheaper for the state to suck up the cost of vaccinating as opposed to the cost of the disease and it's spread. You also forgot to mention that the 3 strains that are covered are the 3 most prevalent strains. Let's ignore the evidence that even with having to predict which strain is going to be most prevalent (and this is done with the scientific method, not pulling a strain type out of a hat as if it were a lottery), the flu vaccine does prevent actual illnesses and save actual lives. It is inconvient that you need a new one every year, but that isn't an arguement that it isn't cost effective or disease preventive.

If you think I'm being hard on you, you should have heard the conversation I was having with one of my sibs a week ago. She lives in an extremely crunchy area and gets this false information coming at her constantly. I cannot treat a no vax decision like it's equal to a pro vax. Not vaccinating kills people.

I was not talking for me, but for others.

I read up a bit more about French rec for vaccination, and they discourage children, and mostly encourage older people and those who have particular conditions (like asthma, and immuno deficiency). I think I agree with those and would not push them further out.

Scientific method does not mean infallible, there were years where gambles (because yes to some extent there is a gamble, because you can only limit to a small number of strands) were wrong.

[MonkeyMomma]

Right and of those deaths, you have numbers how many were caused by the strains covered by the vaccine per year?

I'll leave you on your pedestal. Keep your moral high ground where it is better to force everyone to take medicine, and not trust other methods of prevention because people can't be taught ever.

I have no interest in continuing the ever going debate where one side treats the other as mentally retarded, immoral and irresponsible individuals. Again this is really not how to convince others of anything, but you know since you want it to be government mandated I guess it's not that important.

For me, it's not about forcing anyone to do anything, nor is it about whether or not people are capable of other prevention methods - it's about discounting and demonizing a very real and good tool in the prevention of a disease that has the potential to be devastating.

You can feel superior because you haven't bought into the "hype" of the yearly flu vaccine. Gold star for you. Whatever. But as for me and my house, we get our vaccines. And guess what? I didn't get the flu last year. It was totally rad.

[fedelm]

It is good to see that upward trend. :D However, last year in the US we had whopping cough and measles cases in several states. There should not be this kind of back sliding.

Pertussis incidence is increasing, alarmingly, but its not due to lack of vaccination. DTaP isn't working very well.

[Deleted03]

For me, it's not about forcing anyone to do anything, nor is it about whether or not people are capable of other prevention methods - it's about discounting and demonizing a very real and good tool in the prevention of a disease that has the potential to be devastating.

You can feel superior because you haven't bought into the "hype" of the yearly flu vaccine. Gold star for you. Whatever. But as for me and my house, we get our vaccines. And guess what? I didn't get the flu last year. It was totally rad.

ok I'm tired now, I was NOT the one to say I had the moral high ground, or that I was on a pedestal for my ideas. So stop saying I can feel superior, because I NEVER said that. I also am not discounting the vaccine or demonizing it. Again nuance. But apparently it's everything or nothing, and no matter what other medical systems advise, because you know there is only ONE medical knowledge, and ONE social application of medical knowledge (NOT).

I did not get the flu last year either, yay! What an argument.

[BlackHawk]

Pertussis incidence is increasing, alarmingly, but its not due to lack of vaccination. DTaP isn't working very well.

Interesting... no where in my reading did I see the words TDaP is not working very well. What I've seen is that immunity may wane earlier than originally expected. Which means instead of merely getting vaccinated once every 10 years, you need to do it on a more appropriate schedule. That doesn't mean the vaccine "isn't working well" (to quote you). Please actually research before you spout off nonsense.

[Deleted03]

I checked NHS (UK health system) and they have the same recs as France.

[icecreamycakeycake]

I read somewhere that most people who think they have the flu only have a cold. Seems about right. I know I like to moan about being on death's door when I catch a cold. More pity-soup that way.

The flu does not typically present with a runny/stuffy/sneezing nose, a cold does. The flu will also produce a higher fever and acute malaise, recovery is typically 10 days. Let's put it this way, if you can get up and post a FB status that you have the flu, you likely have a cold.

[rock_girl]

Interesting... no where in my reading did I see the words TDaP is not working very well. What I've seen is that immunity may wane earlier than originally expected. Which means instead of merely getting vaccinated once every 10 years, you need to do it on a more appropriate schedule. That doesn't mean the vaccine "isn't working well" (to quote you). Please actually research before you spout off nonsense.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/ ... ctiveness/ I really like this post regarding the whooping cough vaccine. What I took away was not that the vaccine itself was ineffective but that we need to focus on boosters and perhaps targeting different groups with the vaccine (such as pregnant women). It also looks like we've traded in a great vaccine for a good but not as great vaccine in order to appease vaccine alarmists.

I think it interesting that the effectiveness of the current vaccine and vaccination schedule can be discussed and investigated by the pro-vaccine side. Find a problem? Acknowledge it, work toward a solution, focus on the next issue. Vaccine sceptics love to point out errors and flaws in the science behind vaccines which they've found via their 'research' but are quick to shut down debate on their blogs and Facebook pages that question these findings.

[Arete]

I was not talking for me, but for others.

I read up a bit more about French rec for vaccination, and they discourage children, and mostly encourage older people and those who have particular conditions (like asthma, and immuno deficiency). I think I agree with those and would not push them further out.

Scientific method does not mean infallible, there were years where gambles (because yes to some extent there is a gamble, because you can only limit to a small number of strands) were wrong.

So what if they were wrong certain years? That is supposed to be a argument to not vaccinate? Fail. The CDC in the US recommends that EVERYONE over the age of 6 months be vaccinated. On this one, I'm going to say the US is on a better track than France, and believe me, I don't say that too often. I'd be curious to see France's morbidity and mortality numbers with regard to the flu.

fedelm-Stop lying about the pertussis vaccine. emmiedahl explained the problems and solutions to you pages ago.

Edit to add the Public Health Agency of Canada's recommendations-

The national goal of the seasonal influenza immunization program in Canada is to prevent serious illness caused by influenza and its complications, including death.(97) In keeping with this, NACI recommends that priority for seasonal influenza vaccination be given to those persons at high risk of influenza-related complications, those capable of transmitting influenza to individuals at high risk of complications and those who provide essential community services. However, influenza vaccine is encouraged for all Canadians who have no contraindication

[Deleted03]

So what if they were wrong certain years? That is supposed to be a argument to not vaccinate? Fail. The CDC in the US recommends that EVERYONE over the age of 6 months be vaccinated. On this one, I'm going to say the US is on a better track than France, and believe me, I don't say that too often. I'd be curious to see France's morbidity and mortality numbers with regard to the flu.

fedelm-Stop lying about the pertussis vaccine. emmiedahl explained the problems and solutions to you pages ago.

Edit to add the Public Health Agency of Canada's recommendations-

The national goal of the seasonal influenza immunization program in Canada is to prevent serious illness caused by influenza and its complications, including death.(97) In keeping with this, NACI recommends that priority for seasonal influenza vaccination be given to those persons at high risk of influenza-related complications, those capable of transmitting influenza to individuals at high risk of complications and those who provide essential community services. However, influenza vaccine is encouraged for all Canadians who have no contraindication

Yes I know Canada follow the US, which is often the case for medical advice.

I think I'd rather follow the UK and France, more intervention conservative. They vaccinate those at risk and talk about other methods of prevention for the others. I don't know the numbers but I still doubt there are more death in France and in the UK because of the flu. For a vaccine that only covers three strands (by the way H1N1 is again there for the second or third consecutive year) and that has about 60% efficacy it might just not make a difference.

At least I hope you will drop the discourse of being an idiot, unless you think that doctors and political decision makers are also idiots in France and in the UK.