Matthew Vines on "anti-gay" passages in the Bible

[formergothardite]

So anyone who disagrees with Australian is not a real Christian and doomed to hell? Because he is God's special snowflake and the only one capable of understanding the Bible, I guess.

Have you ever eaten more than you need to eat Australian, or do you have more clothes than you need? Because according to my interpretation of the Bible, if you keep all this food and clothing to yourself while there are others who go without, then you aren't a real Christian.

He answered them, "The person who has two coats must share with the one who doesn't have any, and the person who has food must do the same."

Luke 3:11

As you said, Jesus was quite harsh on people who call themselves a Christian but the label doesn't match the actions. Well, right there were the words of Jesus do your actions match them?

Oh, and I think this forum has time and space for you to go and address all the contradictions in the Bible.

[australian]

What is thus a marriage? It is a union between two people who love each other. They wish to live together and together raise any children that God has given them.

What is a Christian marriage? Isn’t it simply a marriage where the spouses wish to live with God? Isn’t a Christian marriage a marriage between Christian spouses? What is it that you find in the concept of marriage that makes it impossible to expand the practice from only applying to heterosexual couples to include homosexual couples? After all, a marriage is between the spouses, and God. The spouses "left their father and mother" to live with each other. They are in fact one with another. And thus, they are joined by God.

Well Jesus seems to define the basis of Christian marriage in Matthew chapter 19, where he says that like Adam and Eve came together, so does a man and a woman in marriage to become "one flesh". That concept of "one flesh" follows from Genesis chapter 2, where Adam is quoted to say "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man†and where the author of Genesis then responds "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh." Two spouses of the same gender dont have that joining of one flesh. I suggest that ignoring Jesus' words on marriage would undermine the idea that a marriage is a Christian marriage. But I suggest that a Christian marriage is more than about the genders of the two spouses. A Christian marriage would also comply with all guidelines in the Bible about marriage that apply to Christians, eg that a husband should put his wife first (Ephesians chapter 5) etc etc.

I dont deny that non-Christian homosexuals should be able to unite and live as they please. Im just saying that it's not compliant with the New Testament model.

[Guest Anonymous]

Well Jesus seems to define the basis of Christian marriage in Matthew chapter 19, where he says that like Adam and Eve came together, so does a man and a woman in marriage to become "one flesh". That concept of "one flesh" follows from Genesis chapter 2, where Adam is quoted to say "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man†and where the author of Genesis then responds "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh." Two spouses of the same gender dont have that joining of one flesh. I suggest that ignoring Jesus' words on marriage would undermine the idea that a marriage is a Christian marriage. But I suggest that a Christian marriage is more than about the genders of the two spouses. A Christian marriage would also comply with all guidelines in the Bible about marriage that apply to Christians, eg that a husband should put his wife first (Ephesians chapter 5) etc etc.

I dont deny that non-Christian homosexuals should be able to unite and live as they please. Im just saying that it's not compliant with the New Testament model.

Matthew 19 is a definition of divorce, not a definition of marriage (haven't other people mentioned that?).

[formergothardite]

Still want to know if Australian has more than one outfit and if so why he is disobeying the words of Jesus......

[australian]

And the actions that are most strongly indicated and most often alluded to [in the Bible] are caring for the poor, believing in and loving God, and loving one's neighbor as oneself.

Yes I think youre right.

There's very, very little in the Bible about homosexuality, what there is tends to be disputed as far as its particular meaning (witness: this thread) and none of it came directly from Jesus.

There is not much in the Bible about homosexuality, but Matthew Vines reckons there are at least 6 verses that people tend to interpret as being relevant. Some others would claim there are more verses that are relevant. Whereas there are other topics that have much less than 6 verses ascribed to them. It's also notable that the Bible verses Matthew Vines raises, portray homosexuality as being an important topic, eg 1 Corinthians 6:9. The Bible does not get much more serious about things than it does in that verse.

Yes the interpretation of those verses is disputed. But mainly in certain quarters, ie liberal churches rather than conservative churches. And in liberal churches all sorts of elements of the Bible are disputed including whether hell exists, whether Mary was a virgin, whether Jesus was god, whether the Bible is reliable. If all disputed matters were disregarded, there would be almost nothing of Christianity remaining. I suggest that more important than whether things are disputed, is the question of the strength of the arguments raised in the dispute.

I suggest that it's an overstatement to claim that Jesus gave no guidance in regards to homosexuality. Certainly we have no records in the Bible of him specifically referring to it, but we do have records in the Bible of him describing the nature of Christian marital relationships, including the gender composition (Matthew 19). And some believe that when he spoke of eunuch's that this was a reference to a classification of people that included homosexuals. Also notable was that he lived in Jewish culture where homosexual sex was regarded as sinful (Lev. 18), but we have no record of him saying that it was no longer to be regarded as sinful.

Which brings us back to why you're so het up about gay people, and not uncharitable people. There's so much more content in the Bible about taking care of the poor, etc. You obviously think that gay sex is a bigger deal than a lot of other stuff that you presumably consider to be a sin, which is pretty messed up.

Well, no Im not sure that gay sex is a worse sin than not looking after the needy. But I guess everyone knows that the Bible advocates looking after the needy, so there is little to debate or say about that. Whereas the question of the Biblical perspective on gay sex is a bit more of a puzzle, and more of a matter of dispute, as you said earlier. Many people dont seem to be aware of what the Bible says on the matter. That's where I can help.

[formergothardite]

You just give your opinion on what the Bible says, unless you claim to be speaking for God.

[Effie]

Australian, I was mainly talking about Christian homosexuals. I wonder if you wrote"unchristian" because you. do not think homosexual people can be Christians. My key point is that an institution which excludes a certain group of people has no place in a civilized society.

[formergothardite]

If people who are gay can't be Christians, then all the overeaters and people who have more than one outfit also can't be Christians.

[australian]

So anyone who disagrees with Australian is not a real Christian and doomed to hell? Because he is God's special snowflake and the only one capable of understanding the Bible, I guess.

Have you ever eaten more than you need to eat Australian, or do you have more clothes than you need? Because according to my interpretation of the Bible, if you keep all this food and clothing to yourself while there are others who go without, then you aren't a real Christian.

He answered them, "The person who has two coats must share with the one who doesn't have any, and the person who has food must do the same."

Luke 3:11

As you said, Jesus was quite harsh on people who call themselves a Christian but the label doesn't match the actions. Well, right there were the words of Jesus do your actions match them?

Oh, and I think this forum has time and space for you to go and address all the contradictions in the Bible.

Yes, Ive committed the sin of gluttony, and of greed at times. I have more clothes than I need. I make mistakes. I have flaws. I dont deny this. I dont claim to have never sinned, or to have all the answers. Im not here to point fingers at people and call them sinners. Im here to discuss whether the Bible approves or disapproves homosexual sex. And it wasnt me who started this - it was the guy named in the subject line of this thread.

[formergothardite]

So you are now actively living in sin? And that makes you better than the happily married gay couple how? Shouldn't you be pulling those logs out of your own eye before you start telling people they aren't "real Christians" because they interpret the Bible differently than you?

[australian]

Matthew 19 is a definition of divorce, not a definition of marriage (haven't other people mentioned that?).

Overall, the passage is about divorce, but in order to explain divorce, Jesus begins the passage by explaining what marriage is, eg verse 5.

[australian]

If people who are gay can't be Christians, then all the overeaters and people who have more than one outfit also can't be Christians.

Well I suggest that Christians are those who follow the principles detailed in the New Testament. Yes, someone who is regularly gluttonous, is not behaving like a dedicated Christian. Someone who steals is not behaving like a real Christian. Someone who regularly has gay sex or straight sex outside of marriage is not behaving like a real Christian. Note though that the Bible does not explicitly say "gay people cant be Christians". Rather it's the sexual activity that is the issue. Matthew Vines has said in an interview that he is gay, but he doesnt believe in sex outside of marriage. He wants to marry a guy before he has sex. So if he's a virgin, then although he's gay, then so far he hasnt actually violated the Biblical prohibition against gay sex.

[formergothardite]

Well I suggest that Christians are those who follow the principles detailed in the New Testament. Yes, someone who is regularly gluttonous, is not behaving like a dedicated Christian. Someone who steals is not behaving like a real Christian. Someone who regularly has gay sex or straight sex outside of marriage is not behaving like a real Christian. Note though that the Bible does not explicitly say "gay people cant be Christians". Rather it's the sexual activity that is the issue. Matthew Vines has said in an interview that he is gay, but he doesnt believe in sex outside of marriage. He wants to marry a guy before he has sex. So if he's a virgin, then although he's gay, he hasnt actually violated the Biblical prohibition against gay sex.

So you are not following the Bible because at this moment you are living in sin by having more clothes then you need? You aren't behaving a like a real Christian?

[Guest Anonymous]

Well, no Im not sure that gay sex is a worse sin than not looking after the needy. But I guess everyone knows that the Bible advocates looking after the needy, so there is little to debate or say about that. Whereas the question of the Biblical perspective on gay sex is a bit more of a puzzle, and more of a matter of dispute, as you said earlier. Many people dont seem to be aware of what the Bible says on the matter. That's where I can help.

Everyone knows the Bible advocates looking after the needy, and that's why poverty and hopelessness have been eliminated by all of the Christians who are serving their less fortunate brethren. Wait! No, that didn't happen because they were too busy lining the streets for blocks around Chik-fil-a so they could buy sandwiches and thus prove how much they despise gay people. I really think Christians could stand to hear a little more about looking after the needy and a little less about how gay people are crap. And I'm quite sure that gay sex is not a sin, but that's my opinion. And yes, you treating people like they are too stupid to read and study the Bible without you is a great help. (Hint: No, it isn't.) Why exactly do you think you are so uniquely qualified to speak on this matter, to the point that you can't even fathom someone disagreeing with you? Are you a minister? Did you graduate from seminary? Even if the answer is yes, I'm still going to read and study my Bible for myself, and come to my own conclusions, as should everyone.

Yes, Ive committed the sin of gluttony, and of greed at times. I have more clothes than I need. I make mistakes. I have flaws. I dont deny this. I dont claim to have never sinned, or to have all the answers. Im not here to point fingers at people and call them sinners. Im here to discuss whether the Bible approves or disapproves homosexual sex. And it wasnt me who started this - it was the guy in the subject line of this thread.

You don't think telling people they are unchristian is the same thing or equivalent to calling them sinners? Okay player. The guy in the subject line of this thread has not showed up here and told people they are unchristian if they disagree with him, so actually it is you that's started this.

Jesus definitely had a few things to say about pride, and you've practically crowned yourself King of Everything but especially who is a Christian and who isn't. Maybe you should deal with the splinters you know are in your own eyes instead of prowling the internet with a set of tweezers aimed at other people. All of what you're doing here comes across as I'M BETTER THAN THOSE GAY PEOPLE YES I AM BECAUSE THE SINS I COMMIT ARE LESS BAD. If your ultimate goal is to mansplain everyone into submission so we will all admit that you are right, I'm going to tell you right now that is not going to happen. If your goal is to piss people off by condescending to them, that's accomplished. Feel free to move on to your next mission field.

Also, you never did address the verses I posted from Deuteronomy in regards to non-consensual sex.

All of that said, I think I'm pretty well done here. You think I'm unchristian and I think you're an arrogant, bigoted tool. I'm still not kicking you out of the club though, because I realize that's between you and God and I have no right to do that.

[australian]

So you are not following the Bible because at this moment you are living in sin by having more clothes then you need? You aren't behaving a like a real Christian?

Well that's hard to know. Jesus preached against greed, and you could argue that this would include being greedy about clothes. I cant think of anywhere in the Bible where he is quoted as cautioning against having too many clothes. Im not sure whether Im really sinning in that regard. I tend to assume that if I do have too many clothes, then it's not a particularly huge sin. But in any case, I dont perceive this discussion to be about whether I myself sin, or whether anyone else participating in this discussion sins or whether any of us are bad people. I perceive this discussion to be about definitions rather than accusations, ie about whether gay sex is sin according to the Bible.

[Guest Anonymous]

Overall, the passage is about divorce, but in order to explain divorce, Jesus begins the passage by explaining what marriage is, eg verse 5.

Oh, that is just adorable. I just want to squidge your tiny, hateful, little face. Verse five is beautifully vague. That is why I (and most other normal people) try to read the Bible in context. CONTEXT. Say it with me: 'context'.

These are the words:

And said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

Using those words alone, how could anyone create a viable policy on gay rights?

[australian]

... All of that said, I think I'm pretty well done here. ...

Thanks for the discussion. Sorry if I was annoying or lacked humility. Hopefully I guess we still agree that God loves everybody, including both of us.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sorry if I was annoying or lacked humility.

I don't believe that for a second. See, when you act like an arrogant, holier-than-thou jerk for five pages, a throw away apology once someone is done with you means absolutely nothing. Your character as revealed by your posts here leads me to believe that the only thing you're truly sorry about is that you can't force people to agree with you.

[formergothardite]

Well that's hard to know. Jesus preached against greed, and you could argue that this would include being greedy about clothes. I cant think of anywhere in the Bible where he is quoted as cautioning against having too many clothes. Im not sure whether Im really sinning in that regard. I tend to assume that if I do have too many clothes, then it's not a particularly huge sin. But in any case, I dont perceive this discussion to be about whether I myself sin, or whether anyone else participating in this discussion sins or whether any of us are bad people. I perceive this discussion to be about definitions rather than accusations, ie about whether gay sex is sin according to the Bible.

Well this is John, but let's just assume that God/Jesus agrees with him.:

And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.â€

So, since there are people in this world with none, and you have more than enough clothes that you are selfishly hoarding to yourself, you are not following the words of Jesus. And apparently you think that hoarding food and clothes for yourself and letting people go without is not a particularly huge sin, but gay people having sex is.

You say people who think consenting, loving gay couples getting married and having sex isn't a sin in the Bible are not "real Christians" and aren't living a Biblical life, while all the while you are disobeying the words of Jesus and not living a Biblical life. You came here telling people that they were all wrong, sinning and not really Christians, and now you are all butt hurt because your own sin is being brought up. You don't want to talk about yourself because then you will have to face all the sins in your own life. It is easier to go to the internet and tell people they aren't really Christians because they don't agree with your intepretation of the Bible.

[Anxious Girl]

australian, I thought that Christianity was all about the New Testament and obeying Jesus and not the teachings of Paul and Peter? Isn't that why it's called Christianity, and not Paulianity or Peteranity? How come more sins (such as gluttony and vanity) are more acceptable than being LGBT? Here are a couple of Biblical laws that fundies and ignorant Christians seem to forget in the OLD TESTAMENT:

"The LORD said to Moses, tell the Israelites: When a woman has conceived and gives birth to a boy, she shall be* unclean for seven days, with the same uncleanness as at ther menstrual period."(Leviticus, chapter 12, verses 1-2, The New American (Roman Catholic) Bible c. 1987, ed. 1991.)

"Rever your mother and father, and keep my sabbaths." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 3.)

""When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not be so thorough that you reap the field to its very edge, nor shall you glean the stray ears of grain." Likewise, you shall not pick your vineyard bare, nor gather up the grapes that have fallen. These things you shall leave for the poor and the alien." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verses 9-10.)

""You shall not steal. You shall not lie or speak falsely to one another. You shall not swear falsely by my name, thus profaning the name of your God." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 11.)

"You shall not defraud or rob your neighbor. You shall not withold overnight the wages of your day laborer. You shall not curse the deaf, or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but you shall fear your God." (Leviticus, Chapter 19, verses 13-14.)

"You shall not act dishonesty in rendering judgement. Show neither partiality to the weak nor deference to the mighty, but judge your fellow men justly. You shall not go about spreading slander among your kinsmen, nor shall you stand idly when your neighbor's life is at risk." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 15.)

"You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart. Though you may have to reprove your fellow man, do not incur sin because of him. Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. *" (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse17-18.)

"Keep my statutes: do not breed any of your domestic animals with others of a different species; do not sow a field of yours with two different kinds of seed; and do not put on a garment woven with two different kinds of thread." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 19.)

* ""If a man has carnal realtions with a female slave who has already been living with another man but has not yet been redeemed or given her freedom, they shall be punished but not put to death, because she is not free. The man, moreover, shall bring to the entrance of the meeting tent a ram as his guilt offering to the LORD. With this ram the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the sin he has commited, and it will be forgiven him." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verses 20-22.)

* "When you come into the land and plant any fruit tree there, first look upon its fruit as if it were uncircumcised. For three years, while its fruit remains uncircumcised, it may not be eaten In the fourht year, however, all of its fruit shall be sacred to the LORD as a thanksgiving feast to him. Not until the fifth year may you eat its fruit." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verses 23-25.)

""Do not eat meat with blood in it. Do not practice divination or soothsaying." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 26.)

"Do not lacerate your bodies for the dead, and do not tatoo yourselves." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 28.)

"Do not go to mediums or fortune-tellers, for you will be defiled by them." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 31)

""Stand up in the prescence of the aged, and show respect for the old; thus shall you fear your God." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verse 32.)

""When an alien resides with you in your land, do not molest him. You shall treat the alien who resides with you no differently than the natives born among you; have the same love for him as for yourself; for you too were once aliens in the land of Egypt." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verses 33-34.)

""Do not act dishonestly in using measures of length or weight or capacity. You shall have a true scale and true weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin." (Leviticus, chapter 19, verses 35-36.)

""Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life." (Leviticus, chapter 20, verse 9.)

""If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus, chapter 20, verse 13.)

"The LORD then said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and when all who heard him have laid their hands on his head, let the whol community stone him." (Leviticus, chapter 20, verses 13-14.)

"You shall have but one rule, for alien and native alike." (Leviticus, chapter 20, verse 22.)

How come Christians don't obey these commands/laws? (And those are only a 2-page sample!) How come only being LGBT is seen as a sin even though Jesus doesn't say much about it in the New Testament; and fundie/ignorant Christians don't obey these commands, they say 'cause it's in the Old Testament, yet use the Old Testament as support for being anti-gay?

(pages 116-117)

[formergothardite]

Since there are gay Christians who post here, Australian is actually attacking people, not ideas because he has claimed that if you believe this way, you aren't interpretting the Bible correctly and aren't living a "true Christian" life. And this was fine for him until his own sins were brought up and then and then it was all "Let's not talk about if I sin, lets stick to talking about those ebil gays who are living in sin." I don't believe for a second he is sorry about his lack of humility, if he was he would show that humility by being willing to look at his own life instead of focusing on what he views as a sin in the lives of others.

[Anxious Girl]

No formergothardite, it's you and everybody else here who's attacking him because you disagree with his interpretation of the Bible and are questioning why he interprets it that way and what does Jesus say to support his views and is this version of the book translated correctly?. :roll: /sarcasm

[Anise]

I don't know if you're still around, Australian, but I'll address this to you anyways.

At least have the honesty that you have certain beliefs and are not really interested on whether they are truly supported by the Bible.

And that is why you don't ask questions. You don't ask what the words used actually meant in their cultural context. You don't ask why if the infamous verse in Leviticus were prohibiting homosexuality, it only mentions men.

I think you're afraid of the answers.

[formergothardite]

No formergothardite, it's you and everybody else here who's attacking him because you disagree with his interpretation of the Bible and are questioning why he interprets it that way and what does Jesus say to support his views and is this version of the book translated correctly?. :roll: /sarcasm

I know right? Who are we to say he might be wrong in his interpretation of the Bible. Obviously he has a direct line to God (maybe he is God's son, sibling to Miss Raquel) and there is no possible way that he could be wrong and anyone else could be right. And really, how dare we bring up that people are going without food, clothing, and shelter while Australian spends his money buying himself clothes and food that he doesn't need. Surely that verse doesn't actually mean what it says, surely it doesn't apply to him. And even if it did, well, spending your money on yourself while people go without basic necessities isn't ~that~ bad of a sin, nothing compared to a Christian gay couple who have sex. Now that right there is a horrible sin that really hurts others. :roll:

[australian]

I don't believe that for a second. See, when you act like an arrogant, holier-than-thou jerk for five pages, a throw away apology once someone is done with you means absolutely nothing. Your character as revealed by your posts here leads me to believe that the only thing you're truly sorry about is that you can't force people to agree with you.

Ugh, Im sorry. I never intended to imply I was holier or better than anyone else.