lolPersecution part 87

[Glass Cowcatcher]

That's the weird thing to me, as I read more about the case. 22 weeks actually CAN be viable. IIRC, the youngest surviving preemie was delivered at 21 weeks, 6 days. According to the nurse, the hospital performed a fairly graphic D&E abortion on the 22 week fetus, when they could have attempted to save its life. It makes me wonder if there was something else wrong with the pregnancy that the nurse was unaware of. If she truly didn't have all the information, that would be one more reason that it was not her place to question diagnosis in an emergency situation like that.

A fetus at that age may be viable, but will very likely have issues that give it a poor long-term prognosis.

[emmiedahl]

That's the weird thing to me, as I read more about the case. 22 weeks actually CAN be viable. IIRC, the youngest surviving preemie was delivered at 21 weeks, 6 days. According to the nurse, the hospital performed a fairly graphic D&E abortion on the 22 week fetus, when they could have attempted to save its life. It makes me wonder if there was something else wrong with the pregnancy that the nurse was unaware of. If she truly didn't have all the information, that would be one more reason that it was not her place to question diagnosis in an emergency situation like that.

Wow, nice language there :roll: Wanna bet she's never actually been raped? If she feels so traumatized by her participation, can you imagine how the patient must feel? She goes through more than half a pregnancy, then receives a potentially fatal diagnosis that resulted in emergency surgery and the loss of her potential baby. Seriously, who is the fucking victim here?

According to the literature I found, that fetus was delivered 22 weeks from its conception, while this lady was 22 weeks from her LMP, the more usual way of measuring a pregnancy.

Even if 1 out of millions of fetuses born at 22 weeks from LMP lives, it does not make this less of an emergency. The baby is irrelevant to dying mother. A D & E is the fastest way to abort a fetus at this stage.

[emmiedahl]

I can't imagine that passing legal muster.

Not in the current political climate. But I am sick of hearing about people whose principles keep them from doing their jobs. Just so sick of it. Pharmacists who won't dispense birth control pills even for non-contraceptive reasons, and now this bullshit. Imagine if a teacher was against math. Imagine if a legislator was against voting. There are things that a medical provider and/or nurse need to do, and many of them are not pretty. I have heard stories from doctors and nurses that were very disturbing and that was just from hearing about them. It is not a pretty job. If you want a pretty job, become a florist.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Not in the current political climate. But I am sick of hearing about people whose principles keep them from doing their jobs. Just so sick of it. Pharmacists who won't dispense birth control pills even for non-contraceptive reasons, and now this bullshit. Imagine if a teacher was against math. Imagine if a legislator was against voting. There are things that a medical provider and/or nurse need to do, and many of them are not pretty. I have heard stories from doctors and nurses that were very disturbing and that was just from hearing about them. It is not a pretty job. If you want a pretty job, become a florist.

I do not disagree with you, just saying they would cry persecution like a bansee.

[Coconut Flan]

Speaking as a patient, I wouldn't have wanted her in the OR. A distraught nurse is a distracted nurse and I would want a calm, rational, aware person in there with me. But then I've had a nurse who objected to one of my medical procedures and asked to have her removed.

I wonder why the hospital records indicated it was a category II which isn't immediate danger of death and why the woman wasn't on mag sulfate. At 22 weeks the normal course would be to try the mag and try to get another week or two. Our local hospital would normally try to save a 22 weeker rather than abort if the mother did not want to continue the pregnancy. They'd induce or do a c-section even though the odds aren't good.

I wouldn't want to be in the position of either the patient or the nurse, but I've never seen a hospital that size only have only one OB OR nurse on duty even on a holiday Sunday. I had an obstetric emergency surgery on a holiday weekend and there were at least six OB surgery nurses there that I saw. I have no idea how many more were there that I didn't see.

[emmiedahl]

I do not disagree with you, just saying they would cry persecution like a bansee.

Oh, don't I know it. :D

But at some point we are going to have to kick Christianity out of the public sphere. Now is not the time, but I hope I see it in my lifetime.

I don't mean to make it illegal, just to make personal faith in general irrelevent to public life.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Oh, don't I know it. :D

But at some point we are going to have to kick Christianity out of the public sphere. Now is not the time, but I hope I see it in my lifetime.

I don't mean to make it illegal, just to make personal faith in general irrelevent to public life.

That day cannot come soon enough! :pray:

[slickcat79]

According to the literature I found, that fetus was delivered 22 weeks from its conception, while this lady was 22 weeks from her LMP, the more usual way of measuring a pregnancy.

Even if 1 out of millions of fetuses born at 22 weeks from LMP lives, it does not make this less of an emergency. The baby is irrelevant to dying mother. A D & E is the fastest way to abort a fetus at this stage.

Good point. Amilia Taylor was able to survive because she was conceived by IVF, and thus they knew her exact date of conception. Those 2 weeks are significant. I was trying to understand the nurse's reaction in some way, but no way does the life of a non-viable fetus take precedence over the mother's.

[Arete]

I do not disagree with you, just saying they would cry persecution like a bansee.

I would not be at all surprised if this nurse is directly from the Phillipines, not from a US nursing school. Not sure if this is the case on the west coast or TX, but in the New York Metropolitan area there has been such a demand for nurses and such a shortage of qualified candidates that hospitals have been actively recruiting nurses from the Phillipines for at least a decade. Nursing in this area is good money, but it takes a heavy toll on the body, so I'm guessing that is at least one reason for the shortage. The population has remained reasonably stable.

Edit to add-This is probably a big reason for having conscientious objector status for abortions at that hospital. They depend on a lot of devout Roman Catholic women for their supply of nurses.

[shedemei]

So, this is a pretty small thing.

Samantha Schulz, 8, was barred from singing "Kum Ba Yah" at a Boys and Girls Club in Port Charlotte, Fla., because the song included the words "Oh, Lord."

Sounds just like Faux News to report that the objection was because the song contains the word "Lord", not because the song is a Negro hymn. "Kum ba ya" is Gullah for "come by here" and the song is a plea for intervention by God during trying times.

Once it was appropriated by folk singers in the 60s everyone assumes it's some kind of hippie campfire song. Like the right, who generally sneers at the idea of liberals singing kumbaya, but apparently is OK with the song when it suits their purposes.

[Witsec7]

Oh, don't I know it. :D

But at some point we are going to have to kick Christianity out of the public sphere. Now is not the time, but I hope I see it in my lifetime.

I don't mean to make it illegal, just to make personal faith in general irrelevent to public life.

I hoped it would no longer interfere with the delivery of medical services before I was in the dirt. I'm just so fucking sick of speshul snowflakes push their religious agenda's and naturally want them enacted into law so that we could live under a theonomy.

Frankly the mother or her partner may have decided that they did not want to raise a child with the additional risk factors a 22wk fetus would carry post live birth. It's none of the nurses fucking business to make these kinds of judgement calls. Then she gets major butt hurt and sues? I'm so sick of this religious crazy.

[emmiedahl]

I hoped it would no longer interfere with the delivery of medical services before I was in the dirt. I'm just so fucking sick of speshul snowflakes push their religious agenda's and naturally want them enacted into law so that we could live under a theonomy.

Frankly the mother or her partner may have decided that they did not want to raise a child with the additional risk factors a 22wk fetus would carry post live birth. It's none of the nurses fucking business to make these kinds of judgement calls. Then she gets major butt hurt and sues? I'm so sick of this religious crazy.

The suit was thrown out like the trash it is, thank Heavens.

I hope the state nursing board (or whatever regulatory agencies are in charge of nurses) look into this and remove her license.

[Austin]

Frankly the mother or her partner may have decided that they did not want to raise a child with the additional risk factors a 22wk fetus would carry post live birth. It's none of the nurses fucking business to make these kinds of judgement calls. Then she gets major butt hurt and sues? I'm so sick of this religious crazy.

Very good point.

[slickcat79]

The suit was thrown out like the trash it is, thank Heavens.

Twice :roll:

[NurseNell]

Speaking as a patient, I wouldn't have wanted her in the OR. A distraught nurse is a distracted nurse and I would want a calm, rational, aware person in there with me. But then I've had a nurse who objected to one of my medical procedures and asked to have her removed.

I wonder why the hospital records indicated it was a category II which isn't immediate danger of death and why the woman wasn't on mag sulfate. At 22 weeks the normal course would be to try the mag and try to get another week or two. Our local hospital would normally try to save a 22 weeker rather than abort if the mother did not want to continue the pregnancy. They'd induce or do a c-section even though the odds aren't good.

I wouldn't want to be in the position of either the patient or the nurse, but I've never seen a hospital that size only have only one OB OR nurse on duty even on a holiday Sunday. I had an obstetric emergency surgery on a holiday weekend and there were at least six OB surgery nurses there that I saw. I have no idea how many more were there that I didn't see.

QFT

[JesusFightClub]

Not in the current political climate. But I am sick of hearing about people whose principles keep them from doing their jobs. Just so sick of it. Pharmacists who won't dispense birth control pills even for non-contraceptive reasons, and now this bullshit. Imagine if a teacher was against math. Imagine if a legislator was against voting. There are things that a medical provider and/or nurse need to do, and many of them are not pretty. I have heard stories from doctors and nurses that were very disturbing and that was just from hearing about them. It is not a pretty job. If you want a pretty job, become a florist.

QFT.

It's like selecting for juries. There's a set of basic criteria (can't have served on a jury in the last five years, can't be a police officer, can't be a murderer on life licence, should ideally be alive, that kind of thing). Aside from that, judgement call.

If someone writes in on receiving their callup and says they strongly oppose the jury system and will therefore vote not guilty no matter the circumstances, the rules do not list this as a valid reason for disqualification. But you would yank them from the pool of jurors sharpish, even though they are technically eligible and should be kept in, because they will disrupt the court, cause the jury to fail to carry out its duties correctly and even possibly cause a miscarriage of justice. (It's rare people use that tack - usually people are quite intrigued by the prospect of jury service and hope for a juicy case they can tell their mates about after.)

Like that with the nurse. A nurse who is qualified to carry out a particular procedure which may be a lifesaving procedure and refuses on the grounds of her personal beliefs really has no business being a nurse, like that person has no business being a juror. The nurse should treat everyone the same. If a dying terrorist was brought in, he or she should treat that terrorist just as well as the dying sweet old nun who devoted her life to charity. The nurse is not there to make moral judgements, and if one particular thing will be such an issue that he or she would feel "raped" if made to do it, then nurse, sadly, is the wrong job.

(I guessed from it being a late term abortion, the patient wasn't doing it for the lulz, though I didn't have the detail. I honestly don't see what the nurse being Filipina has to do with it either. )

[Arete]

JFC, the reason some of us are remarking on the nurse being Fillipina is that they tend to be DEVOUT, not merely cultural Catholics. The Phillipines has one of the highest birthrates in the world. A lot of these nurses are coming directly from the Phillipines, where frankly abortion is illegal and they are not going to have had the same exposure. Couple that with their piety, this situation was waiting to happen and will be repeated if hospitals in this area do not get a handle on it.

[Witsec7]

Twice :roll:

And although sanity prevailed the right wing noise machine is digging it up for another sensationalized go round, why the republican platform (isn't it being voted on tonight) does not give exemptions for rape or incest.

The women in my family live to their late eighties. Twenty seven more years of this shit will have worn me quite thin.

[JesusFightClub]

JFC, the reason some of us are remarking on the nurse being Fillipina is that they tend to be DEVOUT, not merely cultural Catholics. The Phillipines has one of the highest birthrates in the world. A lot of these nurses are coming directly from the Phillipines, where frankly abortion is illegal and they are not going to have had the same exposure. Couple that with their piety, this situation was waiting to happen and will be repeated if hospitals in this area do not get a handle on it.

I hadn't read the later comments, just NN's which I found a bit confusing. I have a couple of Filipina mates from my uni days who are now back in the Philippines and they were never too bothered about such things, though they were both religious. Cultural ignorance strikes me again! :oops:

[Witsec7]

I hadn't read the later comments, just NN's which I found a bit confusing. I have a couple of Filipina mates from my uni days who are now back in the Philippines and they were never too bothered about such things, though they were both religious. Cultural ignorance strikes me again! :oops:

Here in the PNW our hospitals and facilities bring in Phillipine nurses to scab during our strikes. They come in on special visa's to cover emergency shortages. They of course honor life as RCC's when it come to the babies, but when it come's to men and women standing for wages, hours and conditions they will scab. It's pretty much a routine picket prior to a nurses strike to leaflet outside the agencies that bring the scabs in.

[JesusFightClub]

Here in the PNW our hospitals and facilities bring in Phillipine nurses to scab during our strikes. They come in on special visa's to cover emergency shortages. They of course honor life as RCC's when it come to the babies, but when it come's to men and women standing for wages, hours and conditions they will scab. It's pretty much a routine picket prior to a nurses strike to leaflet outside the agencies that bring the scabs in.

Ew. I know what some people would say should be done to the agencies, but I'm trying to be more cautious on't tinternet. :evil:

Thing about scabbing, if you scab, for the rest of your life you know exactly what your price is. Exactly what you can be bought for. That must make it hard to sleep at night.

[Witsec7]

Ew. I know what some people would say should be done to the agencies, but I'm trying to be more cautious on't tinternet. :evil:

Thing about scabbing, if you scab, for the rest of your life you know exactly what your price is. Exactly what you can be bought for. That must make it hard to sleep at night.

I won't tollerate a black leg. They aren't allowed in my home, if they come to my saloon they are asked to leave. I don't give a shit where they come from what, they worship and like you I know their price. My parents came to this country without a pot to piss in in or a window to toss it from, they never crossed a line or scabbed. When I was in HS I wasn't allowed to date this fella since his grandfather scabbed in the mines.

[Boltingmadonna]

emmiedahl said:

The Catholic Church is not opposed to abortions that save the mother's life.

emmie, I don't mean to be disrespectful of your normally excellent commentary, but this simply IS NOT TRUE. I don't know why people keep saying it. The Catholic Church is opposed to ALL abortions, for any reason. It doesn't matter if the fetus is doomed, it doesn't matter if the mother is dying. You still may not directly act in any way to harm the fetus. I guess people assume the Church doesn't oppose abortions to save the mother's life, because it seems so illogical they can't believe the Church actually teaches that. But, in fact, it does. If you're going to die without an abortion, well, sux to be you, because you're just gonna have to die. End of story.

And this nurse could not have even hung a bag of saline during an abortion, because she would have been doing what they call "material cooperation" in a mortal sin, so that would be a mortal sin too.

[Coconut Flan]

Remember we had that whole discussion about the Catholic Church did not allow removal of an ectopic pregnancy that was tube sparing because they saw that the same as an abortion. I'm still shaking my head.

Anyway in light of recent idiotic statements I found an article that it had even sparked debate in the California legislature. The bill there was to allow NPs to perform vacuum extraction abortions. It looks like it will pass.

Then I came upon this interesting article. I had wondered if the stridency of the far right rhetoric was some backlash and maybe, hopefully, it is.

http://www.sharp.com/news/health/newsAr ... annelID=40

[emmiedahl]

emmiedahl said:

emmie, I don't mean to be disrespectful of your normally excellent commentary, but this simply IS NOT TRUE. I don't know why people keep saying it. The Catholic Church is opposed to ALL abortions, for any reason. It doesn't matter if the fetus is doomed, it doesn't matter if the mother is dying. You still may not directly act in any way to harm the fetus. I guess people assume the Church doesn't oppose abortions to save the mother's life, because it seems so illogical they can't believe the Church actually teaches that. But, in fact, it does. If you're going to die without an abortion, well, sux to be you, because you're just gonna have to die. End of story.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

However, if medical treatment or surgical operation, necessary to save a mother's life, is applied to her organism (though the child's death would, or at least might, follow as a regretted but unavoidable consequence), it should not be maintained that the fetal life is thereby directly attacked.

There is an excellent discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C ... d_abortion Under the "Discussion about possible justifying circumstances". It has always been controversial, but theological consensus since the 14th century has been overwhelmingly that abortion to save the mother (and some have argued even the mother's reputation) is fine.