lolPersecution part 87

[emmiedahl]

Spontaneous abortions is the medical term for miscarriages, I've never heard of anyone refusing to participate in the care. Most don't even require a D&C, some do but there's no religious or conscientious objection to that. A 3rd trimester spontaneous abortion would really be premature labor, not a miscarriage. But this case is about a 3rd trimester therapeutic abortion with no plan to save the baby. Some nurses and doctors can deal with it, others cannot. To be forced to participate when it is against your conscientious belief is wrong.

The patient was 22 weeks.

[BravaAmica]

Spontaneous abortions is the medical term for miscarriages, I've never heard of anyone refusing to participate in the care. Most don't even require a D&C, some do but there's no religious or conscientious objection to that. A 3rd trimester spontaneous abortion would really be premature labor, not a miscarriage. But this case is about a 3rd trimester therapeutic abortion with no plan to save the baby. Some nurses and doctors can deal with it, others cannot. To be forced to participate when it is against your conscientious belief is wrong.

Actually, this patient had pre-eclampsia. The patient's doctor believed that her life was in mortal danger. the nurse was the only OR nurse available at the time. Here's an atricle: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... /?page=all

[Wolfie]

This makes me pretty sick to think that a medical professional might be allowed to refuse to help a woman who would have died otherwise. I'm actually glad in this case that the courts found in the hospital's favor.

If it had not been a life or death situation where time was at stake, while I disagree with the nurse, I would say that her rights were violated, but in this case the woman was DYING. So she'd rather have what she considers to be two dead people, instead of only a dead "baby?"

[Witsec7]

The patient was 22 weeks.

I find the nurses behavior egregious. I cannot believe that she did not discuss these issues prior to her employment and get direct confirmation of her employers expectations.

I question the nurse's 'morals' considering she was the only available nurse.

[Arete]

This sounds to me like it is not a good idea to let conscientious objectors be in certain positions.

A true pacifist will not kill even to save a life. You can respect that, but you don't want them to be police.

[BravaAmica]

This makes me pretty sick to think that a medical professional might be allowed to refuse to help a woman who would have died otherwise. I'm actually glad in this case that the courts found in the hospital's favor.

If it had not been a life or death situation where time was at stake, while I disagree with the nurse, I would say that her rights were violated, but in this case the woman was DYING. So she'd rather have what she considers to be two dead people, instead of only a dead "baby?"

God's will, donchaknow. God's will.

[NurseNell]

I found an article with more info. http://gothamist.com/2009/07/26/nurse_c ... her_to.php

The patient had pre-eclampsia. It was an emergency abortion that likely saved her life. The nurse disagreed with the doctors on whether it was necessary. She was the OR nurse, so she did not have to actually perform the abortion. It is likely in a hospital that they would have had to wait a bit for another OR nurse to be available. Even a few minutes can matter when someone's blood pressure is soaring.

This nurse is an epic bitch who wanted an excuse to sue. I am glad she lost.

OK, this helps. It was a 22 week pregnancy, about what Michelle Duggar had. The baby needed to be delivered or both could have died. It wasn't the nurse's place to argue with the physician about the diagnosis. In the same situation I would have helped.

I don't believe the nurse is an epic bitch. She's a devout Filipina. Having worked with Filipina nurses I find them very good nurses and most are devout Catholics. I can see this being very traumatic to her. I think people sue too quickly but , as someone else said, she signed a form stating she would not participate in such procedures so the hospital should have contingent plans.

[Witsec7]

OK, this helps. It was a 22 week pregnancy, about what Michelle Duggar had. The baby needed to be delivered or both could have died. Josie lived but could as easily have died. It wasn't the nurse's place to argue with the physician about the diagnosis. In the same situation I would have helped.

I don't believe the nurse is an epic bitch. She's a devout Filipina. Having worked with Filipina nurses I find them very good nurses and most are devout Catholics. I can see this being very traumatic to her. I think people sue too quickly but , as someone else said, she signed a form stating she would not participate in such procedures so the hospital should have contingent plans.

If her faith precluded her doing her job she never should have accepted the employment. She is a complete and total bitch who expected to make change from another woman's tragedy. She is not a speshul snowflake.

[emmiedahl]

Like I said, I think the hospital assumed she meant elective abortions and not other types. The Catholic Church is not opposed to abortions that save the mother's life.

They did ask her after the event to sign a statement clarifying what abortions she would not participate in. This only furthered her butthurt.

You have no place in nursing or medicine if your principles include letting people die for no damn reason.

[NurseNell]

I wonder why the patient wasn't on mag sulfate, that is the first thing done when a pregnant woman presents with pre-eclampsia. Or maybe she was, and the nurse didn't know.

[Witsec7]

Like I said, I think the hospital assumed she meant elective abortions and not other types. The Catholic Church is not opposed to abortions that save the mother's life.

They did ask her after the event to sign a statement clarifying what abortions she would not participate in. This only furthered her butthurt.

You have no place in nursing or medicine if your principles include letting people die for no damn reason.

I suggest this 'nurse' get her dispensations in writing the next time she is looking for work. IMHO she needs a new career, superstition is not an excuse not to do your job.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Would you still defend her if she had been "tricked" into performing a blood transfusion if that was against her religion? Surgery? Giving care to an AIDS patient? Or is this a case of OMG, dead babee!!!?

[NurseNell]

Would you still defend her if she had been "tricked" into performing a blood transfusion if that was against her religion? Surgery? Giving care to an AIDS patient? Or is this a case of OMG, dead babee!!!?

I don't know any religion that prohibits hanging a unit of blood. There are religions who don't believe in receiving blood for themselves.

[emmiedahl]

I suggest this 'nurse' get her dispensations in writing the next time she is looking for work. IMHO she needs a new career, superstition is not an excuse not to do your job.

I totally agree. Imagine if this poor woman had died while Ms Catholic Pants was contemplating whether saving her life was against her religion. She should be having nightmares about the patient she almost killed with her selfishness. She should have her license taken away.

Last time I checked, 22 weeks is not viable, so I am not sure why NN is so concerned about the fetus here. :?

I don't know any religion that prohibits hanging a unit of blood. There are religions who don't believe in receiving blood for themselves.

I don't know of any religion that prohibits abortion when the mother's life is in danger, either.

[Austin]

I disagree. If you cannot do the job you are hired for, then you don't need to hold that position. Period. No forms, no media circus, no claims of persecution, just you don't get hired for a job you are voluntarily unwilling to fulfill all the requirements for. This is how it works in every other industry, and the medical profession should be no exception.

This is how I feel. There are plenty of hospitals where no elective abortions are performed. There are three huge Catholic hospitals right in my city, come to think of it. I get the conscientious objector exception argument, but disagree that the hospital should allow an exception like that in the first place. When a patient needs help, it should be all hands on deck, no matter a person's personal beliefs. If she or her next of kin signed permission for whatever medical intervention she needed, then everyone should just do their damn job.

I feel the same way about religious pharmacists who don't want to fill scripts for birth control or whatever. No problem - but find a new job. Your rights end where the rights of others begin.

[emmiedahl]

I don't think elective abortions are performed at Mt. Sinai. This was not an elective abortion.

[Arete]

Would you still defend her if she had been "tricked" into performing a blood transfusion if that was against her religion? Surgery? Giving care to an AIDS patient? Or is this a case of OMG, dead babee!!!?

Not sure if this is just for NurseNell or for both of us. I am not defending her religious views/morals. I am just stating that "conscientious objector" means that you are giving a person a particular status and what you actually think of their views is meaningless.

Personally, this scenario tells me you have no business having a conscientious objector on an OB floor.

Edit to add this was typed up at the same time as a bunch of other posts.

[Witsec7]

I totally agree. Imagine if this poor woman had died while Ms Catholic Pants was contemplating whether saving her life was against her religion. She should be having nightmares about the patient she almost killed with her selfishness. She should have her license taken away.

Last time I checked, 22 weeks is not viable, so I am not sure why NN is so concerned about the fetus here. :?

I don't know of any religion that prohibits abortion when the mother's life is in danger, either.

The religion of Republicans, it's no longer a political party.

As to NN well I'll reserve my opinion, folks here are smart enough to connect the dots.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Not sure if this is just for NurseNell or for both of us. I am not defending her religious views/morals. I am just stating that "conscientious objector" means that you are giving a person a particular status and what you actually think of their views is meaningless.

Personally, this scenario tells me you have no business having a conscientious objector on an OB floor.

Edit to add this was typed up at the same time as a bunch of other posts.

I was alluding to Jehova's Witnesses. "I do not want a blood transfusion so I won't help prepare one to save a life" seems comparable to "I do not believe in abortion so I will not perform one to save a life." I've read that theoretically they would be able to do that under moral objection laws.

[emmiedahl]

I do not think anyone imagined that a nurse who is against abortions would be against a life-saving emergency abortion. It is so not the same thing, or at least pro-lifers insist it is not the same thing.

The Catholic Church is not against saving a mother's life when the fetus's life is already doomed. I hope the state comes after this nurse and removes her license. A patient could have died because of her.

[NurseNell]

Last time I checked, 22 weeks is not viable, so I am not sure why NN is so concerned about the fetus here. :?

Sorry Emmie, I had a brain fog moment, I was thinking further along because I mixed up Michelle's last 2 pregnancies. Right, at 22 weeks, not viable.

[emmiedahl]

Honestly, getting into medical, pharmaceutical and nursing schools is a real pain in the ass. They could eliminate students who have objections to performing legal medical procedures that are part of their damn jobs with a single question and still have plenty of qualified candidates.

I sure wish I lived in a country where I could not be killed by a nurse who refuses to do her job.

[slickcat79]

Last time I checked, 22 weeks is not viable, so I am not sure why NN is so concerned about the fetus here. :?

That's the weird thing to me, as I read more about the case. 22 weeks actually CAN be viable. IIRC, the youngest surviving preemie was delivered at 21 weeks, 6 days. According to the nurse, the hospital performed a fairly graphic D&E abortion on the 22 week fetus, when they could have attempted to save its life. It makes me wonder if there was something else wrong with the pregnancy that the nurse was unaware of. If she truly didn't have all the information, that would be one more reason that it was not her place to question diagnosis in an emergency situation like that.

A Roman Catholic nurse who says she felt “violated and betrayed, like I had been raped†after being forced to take part in a second-trimester abortion is suing a New York City hospital on charges of violating her rights.

Wow, nice language there :roll: Wanna bet she's never actually been raped? If she feels so traumatized by her participation, can you imagine how the patient must feel? She goes through more than half a pregnancy, then receives a potentially fatal diagnosis that resulted in emergency surgery and the loss of her potential baby. Seriously, who is the fucking victim here?

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Honestly, getting into medical, pharmaceutical and nursing schools is a real pain in the ass. They could eliminate students who have objections to performing legal medical procedures that are part of their damn jobs with a single question and still have plenty of qualified candidates.

I sure wish I lived in a country where I could not be killed by a nurse who refuses to do her job.

I can't imagine that passing legal muster.

[Witsec7]

I do not think anyone imagined that a nurse who is against abortions would be against a life-saving emergency abortion. It is so not the same thing, or at least pro-lifers insist it is not the same thing.

The Catholic Church is not against saving a mother's life when the fetus's life is already doomed. I hope the state comes after this nurse and removes her license. A patient could have died because of her.

FFS this was a Jewish hospital, ya would think the good RCC nurse could have found employment at a facility that reflected her core faith.