lolPersecution part 87

[emmiedahl]

Does anyone know what the fuck these people are talking about? I seriously doubt a woman was forced into a late term abortion...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24/ch ... latestnews

[Guest Anonymous]

It's pretty much this:

1) Separation of church and state is just like persecution!

2) This shit we made up seems just like persecution!

3) The shooting at the Sikh temple was all about us!

4) We're really, really persecuted!

Regarding the abortion, as far as I can tell, a nurse was "forced" into helping to perform an abortion / care for the woman having an abortion. It was not a case of a pregnant woman being forced into an abortion that she did not want.

Edited: spelling

[emmiedahl]

They did not give enough information for me to find the real story on the nurse, so I am assuming it was as you read it, or an outright lie.

[CanadianHippie]

A new report by the Family Research Council and the Liberty Institute claims that

Bzzzt! Sorry Fox, you lose. And with out even finishing the first sentence! That's gotta be some kind of record.

[Guest Anonymous]

I found this:

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1545634.html

[emmiedahl]

Oh, wow. She wanted to refuse to participate in an emergency abortion that sounds like it saved the mother's life. That is some rich bullshit.

[Anxious Girl]

Bzzzt! Sorry Fox, you lose. And with out even finishing the first sentence! That's gotta be some kind of record.

But they're fair and balanced! :roll: And the sad part is, my friend thinks it's real news; so I agree with him just so that he shuts up about it. :(

[JesusFightClub]

I just downloaded the report, so I'll have a look, but the examples Fox gave all sound like overzealous bureaucracy at worst and completely valid at best. I are a bureaucrat and we are required, nay, ordered, to dot every i and cross every t. It's not persecution, which would be someone thinking "I hate Christianity and cannot bear a single mention of it". It's caution, which would be someone thinking "I'd better make sure this is done exactly by the rulebook, and the rulebook says we can't have any religious displays of any kind, so wee girls singing hymns are probably not really on the cards".

This may be a stereotype but I would guess that many of the people saying things like "no you can't give a graduation speech about how you would never have passed your exams if it wasn't for your faith in Jesus" are themselves Christian, this being America we are talking about. So Christians may be discriminating against themselves? :?

As for assisting in a late term abortion, well Heaven forbid a nurse should set aside her personal convictions to save a woman's life. *headdesk*

[emmiedahl]

I don't have cable, but when I was last in a hotel I turned on the TV and Fox News was on. I was unpacking and just wanted the background noise so I left it until they started comparing the shooting of the guard at the FRC (or whatever it is called) to the shootings in the Aurora theater, Columbine, the holocaust, and every other major disaster they could think of. It was appalling, and I switched to the less offensive Jersey Shore.

[Arete]

It is truly raining down ten kinds of gall when the Family Research Council wants to use the argument "hostility can lead to violence.......". Look in the mirror, people! :doh:

[NurseNell]

Does anyone know what the fuck these people are talking about? I seriously doubt a woman was forced into a late term abortion...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24/ch ... latestnews

Maybe I missed it but I read this:

Catherina Lorena Cenzon-DeCarlo, a nurse at Manhattan's Mount Sinai Hospital, was forced to participate in a late-term abortion against her religious convictions, and was threatened with job termination and loss of license.

That is not a woman being forced into a late term abortion, it's a female nurse being forced to participate in one, as in being the scrub or circulating nurse. I don't know if it's true. If it is it shouldn't be allowed.

[NurseNell]

Oh, wow. She wanted to refuse to participate in an emergency abortion that sounds like it saved the mother's life. That is some rich bullshit.

There's not enough information provided to know the reason for the late term abortion. The nurse did sign a form provided by the hospital when she was hired that she would not participate in abortions. She should have that right.

[BravaAmica]

Maybe I missed it but I read this:

That is not a woman being forced into a late term abortion, it's a female nurse being forced to participate in one, as in being the scrub or circulating nurse. I don't know if it's true. If it is it shouldn't be allowed.

Here, JFC said it best, bloding & underlining mine, for emphasis:

As for assisting in a late term abortion, well Heaven forbid a nurse should set aside her personal convictions to save a woman's life. *headdesk*

ETA: I do think the nurse should be fired if she's not going to participate in needed medical care to save someone's life. It doesn't matter if it's an abortion or a blood transfusion. Her skills were needed to help save someone's life and for her to go, "Sorry, she's just going to have to die because that procedure is wrong. That's my belief" is bullshit of the first water. If this nurse cannot put aside her precious little feelings and serve the higher calling of healing the sick, she needs to find another job. For reals.

I wouldn't want a nurse or a doctor or any medical professional using their religious beliefs to interfere with my medical care at all.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

...That is not a woman being forced into a late term abortion, it's a female nurse being forced to participate in one, as in being the scrub or circulating nurse. I don't know if it's true. If it is it shouldn't be allowed.

That's a can of worms right there.

Yes the law sometimes protects people in situations like this, but if she's an OB or emergency room nurse, she should have realized that she might have to participate in situations like that, if only to save the mother's life. It's part of the job.

[emmiedahl]

I think most people assume when a nurse says they will not participate in abortions, they mean elective abortions. Not spontaneous abortions, emergency abortions, etc.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I think most people assume when a nurse says they will not participate in abortions, they mean elective abortions. Not spontaneous abortions, emergency abortions, etc.

Just speculating, but they could have begun the procedure without even knowing that an abortion would be necessary.

[slickcat79]

According to Shackelford, the hostility can lead to violence, as in the case of the Aug.15 shooting at the Family Research Council headquarters, in which a gunman allegedly said he disagreed with the group's beliefs before shooting an employee in the arm. He also cited the Aug. 5 shooting deaths of six people at a Sikh temple near Milwaukee.

One of these things is not like the other. Not to condone either attack because they are both reprehensible, but an arm wound on one guy =/= 6 people dead. More to the point, you can't write an article about "hostility" against christians and then claim it somehow results in violence against Sikhs.

As to the forced-to-participate-in-abortion claim, I'm not sure why some christians act like waving their religion around is some kind of Get Out of Work free card. No one is telling them they can't believe whatever they want, or that they can't practice their religion in whatever way they choose. But when they come to work, they are hired to do a particular job. If they refuse to do that job, I'm not sure why using religion as an excuse should mean they will not face any consequences. The case that sogba linked offers this exemption, which is part of US law:

[n]o entity which receives a grant, contract, loan or loan guarantee under [certain statutory schemes governing federal health funding] ․ may discriminate in the employment, promotion, or termination of employment of any physician or other health care personnel ․ because he performed or assisted in the performance of a lawful sterilization procedure or abortion, because he refused to perform or assist in the performance of such a procedure or abortion on the grounds that his performance or assistance in the performance of the procedure or abortion would be contrary to his religious beliefs or moral convictions, or because of his religious beliefs or moral convictions respecting sterilization procedures or abortions.

They already have an incredibly broad ruling in place to allow religious beliefs of the practitioner to infringe upon the care that they offer to their patients, but that's just not enough privilege for the FRC. Somehow christians are still the victims here.

[NurseNell]

Here, JFC said it best, bloding & underlining mine, for emphasis:

The only information provided does not indicate the reason for the late term abortion. While one might assume it is to save the mother's life that is not a given. This was Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City, not some 10 bed hospital in Podunk, IA. The likelihood that she was the only nurse available is highly unlikely.

[artmama]

There's not enough information provided to know the reason for the late term abortion. The nurse did sign a form provided by the hospital when she was hired that she would not participate in abortions. She should have that right.

I disagree. If you cannot do the job you are hired for, then you don't need to hold that position. Period. No forms, no media circus, no claims of persecution, just you don't get hired for a job you are voluntarily unwilling to fulfill all the requirements for. This is how it works in every other industry, and the medical profession should be no exception.

[artmama]

One of these things is not like the other. Not to condone either attack because they are both reprehensible, but an arm wound on one guy =/= 6 people dead. More to the point, you can't write an article about "hostility" against christians and then claim it somehow results in violence against Sikhs.

As to the forced-to-participate-in-abortion claim, I'm not sure why some christians act like waving their religion around is some kind of Get Out of Work free card. No one is telling them they can't believe whatever they want, or that they can't practice their religion in whatever way they choose. But when they come to work, they are hired to do a particular job. If they refuse to do that job, I'm not sure why using religion as an excuse should mean they will not face any consequences. The case that sogba linked offers this exemption, which is part of US law:

They already have an incredibly broad ruling in place to allow religious beliefs of the practitioner to infringe upon the care that they offer to their patients, but that's just not enough privilege for the FRC. Somehow christians are still the victims here.

Testify! can I get an amen? okay, not really, but you know what I mean. I am so sick of this entitled attitude.

[BravaAmica]

The only information provided does not indicate the reason for the late term abortion. While one might assume it is to save the mother's life that is not a given. This was Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City, not some 10 bed hospital in Podunk, IA. The likelihood that she was the only nurse available is highly unlikely.

I stand by my position. And if she cannot perform her job duties without stepping all over her precious little feelings, she needs to go into a different line of work. For reals. Maybe you are okay with someone not giving you medical care because of their religious beliefs. I, however, am not.

[emmiedahl]

I found an article with more info. http://gothamist.com/2009/07/26/nurse_c ... her_to.php

The patient had pre-eclampsia. It was an emergency abortion that likely saved her life. The nurse disagreed with the doctors on whether it was necessary. She was the OR nurse, so she did not have to actually perform the abortion. It is likely in a hospital that they would have had to wait a bit for another OR nurse to be available. Even a few minutes can matter when someone's blood pressure is soaring.

This nurse is an epic bitch who wanted an excuse to sue. I am glad she lost.

[Arete]

Actually, that hospital allows employees to sign consientious objector forms for abortion and some other procedures. A conscientious objector is a conscientious objector. If it is an allowed status, neither an employer nor the State can force you to change your mind. I am pro choice all the way. At the same time, I do not feel the State has a right to force men who have applied and received conscientious objector status to suddenly say "we're out of soldiers, your fighting". So I am applying the same logic to the hospital. It is a status that THEY allow. You either have to come to terms with a scenario that you may need to perform an emergency abortion with a conscientious objector on the floor and plan accordingly, or you do not allow yourself to employ conscientous objectors.

Edited- Posted this at the same time as emmiedahl. I believe in the link sogba provided that she actually still does have avenues to pursue if she still wants to sue. They only closed off one.

[NurseNell]

I think most people assume when a nurse says they will not participate in abortions, they mean elective abortions. Not spontaneous abortions, emergency abortions, etc.

Spontaneous abortions is the medical term for miscarriages, I've never heard of anyone refusing to participate in the care. Most don't even require a D&C, some do but there's no religious or conscientious objection to that. A 3rd trimester spontaneous abortion would really be premature labor, not a miscarriage. But this case is about a 3rd trimester therapeutic abortion with no plan to save the baby. Some nurses and doctors can deal with it, others cannot. To be forced to participate when it is against your conscientious belief is wrong.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I found an article with more info. http://gothamist.com/2009/07/26/nurse_c ... her_to.php

The patient had pre-eclampsia. It was an emergency abortion that likely saved her life. The nurse disagreed with the doctors on whether it was necessary. She was the OR nurse, so she did not have to actually perform the abortion. It is likely in a hospital that they would have had to wait a bit for another OR nurse to be available. Even a few minutes can matter when someone's blood pressure is soaring.

This nurse is an epic bitch who wanted an excuse to sue. I am glad she lost.

How disgusting. The nurse could probably see the lady's life slipping away before her eyes, and still put her religious convictions first.