Anna Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin Webinar "Reclaiming Beauty"

[nataliemn]

I consider the Botkin sisters my friends, or at least amicable acquaintances. (I'm assuming no one here will say you can't be friends with people you disagree with?) They know we don't agree on some things. They know I've written on why I didn't agree with content in their book "So Much More." But one of the cornerstones of my own work is beauty, so of course I am going to examine as many perspectives and influences on the subject as possible. I didn't actually pay for the series, but I got the first "episode".

:shrug:

[Guest Anonymous]

Welcome to FJ, Natalie. It is good to see you here. :)

[acheronbeach]

Welcome to FJ, Natalie. It is good to see you here. :)

x2

[nataliemn]

x2

Thank you! I've not been around for probably a year and a half, so feel like I kinda have some catching up to do!

[formergothardite]

Why haven't they worked on their mom? She always looks like she's wearing a WalMart couch cover from 1992.

This made me choke on my coffee. :lol:

[formergothardite]

Natalie, how do the Botkins deal with friends disagreeing with them? Are they able to logically defend their beliefs?

[clarinetpower]

Boy, if I wanted to put a photo next to a definition of "snarky", this one would do it. Tell me they weren't teenagers? Pft. Don't buy it. Their countenances betray them.

[bea]

Welcome back, Natalie.

Who the hell are these women reclaiming beauty FROM, anyway? As far as I know, we're all free to figure out what we consider beautiful and pursue it. Assuming we can afford it. I don't care how appealing I find Jo Malone perfume, I can't have it.

Woe. Clearly the Devil at work.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you! I've not been around for probably a year and a half, so feel like I kinda have some catching up to do!

Ah, maybe you were on the old forum then. I saw your join date and thought you were new! Happy catching up; I too would be very interested to hear your views on the questions above when you are up to date.

[Witsec7]

But one of the cornerstones of my own work is beauty...

Is it just me, or is this one of the shallowest statements made by a fundy on FJ? This young (yet stale dated) women seem to be making an idol of beauty. I dare suggest that the professional who styles my hair has worked longer and harder in the field of beauty than the fundy who typed those words.

[Guest Anonymous]

I assumed it meant she was a trained beautician? Young women can qualify reasonably quickly and it can be a flexible job if you are a single parent?

[Witsec7]

I assumed it meant she was a trained beautician? Young women can qualify reasonably quickly and it can be a flexible job if you are a single parent?

Natalie doesn't appear to have any credentials to be a 'trained beauty professional'.

In her own words:

Natalie works as an author, editor, and proofreader while amusing toddlers with finger puppets and going caving whenever possible. She calls Chicago home, family her passion, and dance her second language. She invites you to join her on the Journey.

[bea]

I think it has more to do with things like the title of her blog being "Pursue the Beauty," etc. Beauty as a general concept, not actual physical beauty.

[Witsec7]

I think it has more to do with things like the title of her blog being "Pursue the Beauty," etc. Beauty as a general concept, not actual physical beauty.

Well natalie has chosen not to address that issue on her most recent visit. She is a pet fundy so she really only deals with her leg humpers.

[DarkAnts]

This made me choke on my coffee. :lol:

I am defrauded by one of the girls duck lips. I keep wanting to shout bang :violence-pistoldouble: when I see a picture of a girl doing the duck lips thing.

[Guest Anonymous]

Natalie doesn't appear to have any credentials to be a 'trained beauty professional'.

In her own words:

Ah, OK, thanks, I think I may have muddled up different people in my head. Or imagined stuff or something else daft.

I need to commune with Google for a while. Or else start a new thread asking for someone else to provide me with a summary. :mrgreen:

[Wolfie]

I am defrauded by one of the girls duck lips. I keep wanting to shout bang :violence-pistoldouble: when I see a picture of a girl doing the duck lips thing.

Somebody on my FB just posted a profile photo of herself with duckface. She's 37, I haven't said anything, but I so want to.

[nataliemn]

is this one of the shallowest statements made by a fundy on FJ?

Wow, I'm honored! :) I think any fundy who heard their term applied to me would laugh. Maybe I used to be one, but not much in my life fits that mold anymore.

experiencedd quoted part of my website. Another line may make what I said about beauty being "my work" make more sense. My purpose is "to spark dialogue on the intermix of beauty, grace, and suffering." That's what I write about. That's what keeps me going, whether I see it in my son or music or whatever. If you don't have this kind of beauty in life, what's the point of even staying alive?

I dare suggest that the professional who styles my hair has worked longer and harder in the field of beauty than the fundy who typed those words.

I have nothing to do with beauty in the sense you are speaking of. I have a job, but it's in a very different field. Trust me, I claim no knowledge about being beautiful in the sense of hair or makeup or clothing. I am focused on looking for what is worth holding onto and treasuring in the middle of ugliness and all the mess around (and inside) me.

My interest in beauty is about 90% thanks to C.S. Lewis ("The sweetest thing in all my life has been the longing to find the place where all the beauty came from"). But ultimately my purpose in "my work" is this:

Life is sometimes hard. Things go wrong, in life and in love and in business and in friendship and in health and in all the other ways that life can go wrong. And when things get tough, this is what you should do.

Make good art.

The moment that you feel that, just possibly, you’re walking down the street naked, exposing too much of your heart and your mind and what exists on the inside, showing too much of yourself. That’s the moment you may be starting to get it right. – Neil Gaiman

This young (yet stale dated) women

This made me laugh. That's actually a really apt description. Though it depends on why I am "stale." Because of two disastrous marriages? Or maybe you mean my writing is stale. Which may be true...I've heard worse. Regardless, I may have to quote you on that sometime. :)

Well natalie has chosen not to address that issue on her most recent visit.

If you mean I haven't addressed it today, that would be because I'm not online much in the daytime.

She is a pet fundy

Okay, what does this mean? I was cracking up reading it, because of the mental image it projected, but I haven't much clue what a "pet fundy" is.

Natalie, how do the Botkins deal with friends disagreeing with them? Are they able to logically defend their beliefs?

I think the two Botkin sisters are sweet girls, and even if we don't agree on things I'd rather count them on a list of friends then my list of people-who-no-longer-speak-to-me. To answer your question, as I think back, when I could bring up issues or ask for clarification or ask for more information, they responded with poise and respect, and while their responses didn't necessarily change my mind or win me over, they did earn my respect through the interactions.

[Avalondaughter]

Free first session? Oh yay, we can all have cocktails and live snark together. I'm sure Angri-la will have pretty cake. :dance:

On another note, does anyone else remember the whole figuring out the correct color "season" for your complection in the 80's? I remember that one of my mothers friends was some kind of color consultant, so my mom bought the book and we attempted to figure out our correct "season". My poor mom realized quickly that the whole concept really only worked for Caucasian women, because the particular combination of skin tone, hair, and eyes she had was none existent as an option. As for her confused offspring of mixed ethnicity, I was similarly SOL. If I remember correctly, my 9 year old self had "winter" skin and "summer" hair and eyes. It put a serious damper on my back to school wardrobe.

Maybe the book is old, but as a caucasion woman, I think the advice is quite valid. I am a winter for sure. I rock the deep blues, purples, burgundies, and fuschias. I look plain and boring in earth tones. Everyone identifies those colors on me. Skin tone matters I typing far more than hair and eye color anyway. If you're really that stuck between seasons, just try two different palettes and see which color you look and feel best in. The author upgraded the palettes into sub categories a few years later expanding the number of options within each season and subseason.

It's not the only way to look at how to dress, but it has worked for me quite well for me. I would never dismiss it out of hand for being "too 80s".

[formergothardite]

I admire that you aren't going to go dish on your friends like Knight in Shining Armour who was more than happy to talk bad about them while pretending to be friends in real life. I have always felt that with the friends fundies have that will come here and bash them, they don't really need us as enemies.

Poise and respect is one things, I could ramble on about the earth being flat with poise and respect. Logic is a whole other thing, which from reading their writings it doesn't seem that they would fair well if they were faced with someone who wouldn't back down and would point out all the massive flaws in their their illogical, harmful, hatefilled beliefs. You don't want to lose them as a friend, so you probably won't do that, but I hope somebody in their life does.

[Guest Anonymous]

Aha, I have caught up with the Pursue the Beauty blog. Honestly, I'm not quite sure what it's about, and there are so many links to quotes that I don't really get a sense of who is writing it. One paragraph refers to "Natalie Nyquist" in the third person, another begins "we". The "About Natalie Nyquist" section starts not with any info about Natalie Nyquist but with a list of links to even more quotes of stuff said by others. And there is a twitter feed, also full of quotes by others.

If you don't mind answering questions, Natalie, may I ask why you are relying so much on the words of others to make up the content of your blog? I would be far more interested in hearing your voice and reading what you have to say.

[nataliemn]

anniec, no problem. I'm a little confused, but that's probably just me being tired. I'll try to explain.

Short answer: There are quotes and words by others that have become so important to me that sharing them may not be my voice, but it is what matters to me most. From a glance at my last dozen or so posts, I'd estimate 70-75% of the writing is still my voice and my writing, and the remainder is quotes tackling what I'm writing about far more eloquently than I could. Some of the "quotes" are just pulling from other things I've written, not other people. I'm content with this ratio, because I'm interacting with the quoted content, not just pasting it in to fill space. It usually forms a key part of where I'm going with the post.

Longer answer:

One paragraph refers to "Natalie Nyquist" in the third person, another begins "we".

Thanks for catching that. Originally there were several people writing for the site, and I still fall into the old habit of making things "we" when it's just me (I reworded it).

a list of links to even more quotes of stuff said by others. And there is a twitter feed, also full of quotes by others.

The opening of the "About" page is 3 quotes, yes. Each has a long history (maybe I should explain that on the page itself?) and have been what the site is about for over seven years now. It's helpful to hear someone's first impression of the information because I easily take it all for granted at this point. After that is a description with lots of words linked yes, but the links are to categories of posts on the site which focus on the different things like justice or suffering (or mental illness).

I have 2 Twitter feeds running on the site right now. The one on the right is links, yes. I wrote about why I added it a few months ago. Basically, my site is about these things: social justice (particularly to sex slaves) and finding beauty in suffering. The right feed is all related to various justice issues from slavery to the food crisis and so on. My personal Twitter is the left one and looking through it, I only see two quotations among all my personal tweets in the past 2 months. I link often, yes, but it's usually to a new blog post.

So I guess I'm looking at this from the perspective of writing what I can when I can and passing on relevant, excellent resources.

Does that answer your question at all?

ETA "take"

[Miggy]

Ok, I'm a little late to this conversation but I have just read through all 12 pages. The thing that keep jumping out at me is the assumption that products such as shampoo and conditioner are included in their $130 budget. I buy groceries for my family and part of this includes shampoo, conditioner, sunscreen and soap for the entire family to use. It would never occur to any of my family to count the cost of those products in their own budgets. Living with my parents I was expected to buy my own beauty products but again, shampoo, conditioner and soap just turned up. I bought things like hairspray and gel. The ingrediants for making make up are unlikely to be included if they are coming from the kitchen cupboard. As far as clothes go, buy the right stuff and look after it well and it can last a long time. My Doc Martin boots are nearly 15 years old and are only just starting to show signs of age. If you average out the cost of buying them over the number of years I have worn them, they actually work out very cheap. Sharing clothes, as mentioned by someone above, means they don't need quite as many clothes as the average lady. They also don't need all the different types of clothes that the average lady needs; work clothes, home clothes, sports clothes, evening wear, etc. (I would love to know the cost the value of those costumes they wear. My own Creative Anachronist costume is worth about $500.)

I think it is easy to see how the girls might believe they only spend $130. The actual cost would be quite a lot higher.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ok, thanks Natalie. I don't think I had worked out that it was a blog! :) I thought is was some sort of 'magazine' style website. I didn't realise at first that the left hand column is the blog, if you keep scrolling down far enough, and the other 3/4 columns are the links and stuff.

[treemom]

Anna Sofi and Elizabeth are women not girls. And you still seem fundy to me,