Jahi McMath 3: Issued Second Death Certificate and Will Finally Be Allowed to Rest

[unsafetydancer]

@chaotic life sorry I last studied anatomy when I was 18. I'm guessing that means pretty much anything above the shoulders will be immobile as well. Sorry if I remember my biology lessons incorrectly.

I can't imagine how bad living without the ability to speak/chew/swallow/blink voluntarily would be. Even on the most miniscule chance she is conscious that sounds horrific. To be trapped, possibly in pain, with no way of letting anyone know you are suffering. That's not being alive, that's a nightmare.

[chaotic life]

Jahi is not locked in. She has no consciousness left. According to the evals that were posted in the links, Jahi has zero brain activity, zero consciousness, there is no center of the brain to process sound or vision nor anything else anymore.

IOW, Jahi is not THERE anymore. Everything that made her a unique person died years ago. The body is kept functioning via technological support. Jahi is simply gone.

[unsafetydancer]

Thanks for the explanation @chaotic life. At the very least Jahi doesn't have to suffer but it must be horrible for her siblings to have to pretend that she's alive.

[chaotic life]

I suspect the situation is highly traumatizing, especially for the younger sister. There is some details that the body does, in fact, continue to deteriorate over the years. There is nothing surprising about that. It is what happens. Even in a persistent vegetative state, a body not moving and functioning normally deteriorates over time. In the case of a corpse, it would be even worse. Those poor siblings will be messed up for life, and mom appears to be too ghetto to even grasp what she is doing, much less support the siblings in healing.

It's traumatic enough to lose a sibling as a child. I cannot even fathom to harm done by adding this extended wake to that loss.

[Toothfairy]

4 years later this shit isn't over yet

[Rachel333]

Her case is in the news again. (And no, not because her family has finally allowed the saga to end.) A judge recently ruled that she may not meet the criteria for brain death and so the lawsuit can continue. 

Reading what medical people have been saying online about the case, a lot of people do think her body seems to show a lot less deterioration than they would have expected four years on, but it's pretty much universally agreed that Jahi the person is long gone and that the doctor who has been supporting the family's case is not a credible source.

[Jug Band Baby]

10 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Her case is in the news again. (And no, not because her family has finally allowed the saga to end.) A judge recently ruled that she may not meet the criteria for brain death and so the lawsuit can continue. 

"Alameda County Judge Stephen Pulido ruled Tuesday that it's up to a jury to determine whether Jahi McMath is alive,"

First, alive or death isn't subject to anyone to decide in a courtroom.  You're either alive or you're dead.  She's dead.  

Second, any chance the judge knows this is horse shit and is trying to set precedent that legally determines that being dead means being dead?

[Knight of Ni]

6 hours ago, Jug Band Baby said:

"Alameda County Judge Stephen Pulido ruled Tuesday that it's up to a jury to determine whether Jahi McMath is alive,"

First, alive or death isn't subject to anyone to decide in a courtroom.  You're either alive or you're dead.  She's dead.  

Second, any chance the judge knows this is horse shit and is trying to set precedent that legally determines that being dead means being dead?

He might be trying to set a precedent so this doesn't happen again. But he should know that he can't count on people acting in a rational manner. There are many people who firmly believe that the mother is right in this case. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

[Ozlsn]

17 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

He might be trying to set a precedent so this doesn't happen again. But he should know that he can't count on people acting in a rational manner. There are many people who firmly believe that the mother is right in this case. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

I'm actually surprised this is going before a jury - for some reason I thought it would be decided by a judge only. 

 

On 8/13/2017 at 2:36 AM, Toothfairy said:

4 years later this shit isn't over yet

Yep. Seriously can't believe how long it has dragged on.

[sparkles]

Didn't mean to necro the thread, but I guess it's been deader than Jahi since not much is going on. However…for some reason, she popped into my head yesterday and then I just got a link to the following in my New Yorker email this afternoon (creepy coincidence). Long article—haven't finished it yet—but so far, it's an interesting read.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/what-does-it-mean-to-die?mbid=nl_Daily 012918 Control&CNDID=46214133&spMailingID=12836328&spUserID=MTcwMDQ5ODk4NDAwS0&spJobID=1322632240&spReportId=MTMyMjYzMjI0MAS2

[unsafetydancer]

Once again, I saw this and thought the whole thing was finally finished. I'm sad now.

[Glasgowghirl]

This is horrible, her family are only making it harder on themselves by not accepting the truth and they are robbing Jahi of dignity, she deserves to be laid to rest. I wonder if her mother feels guilty for talking Jahi into the operation and this is her way of dealing with it.

[kacarlton]

Didn't mean to necro the thread, but I guess it's been deader than Jahi since not much is going on. However…for some reason, she popped into my head yesterday and then I just got a link to the following in my New Yorker email this afternoon (creepy coincidence). Long article—haven't finished it yet—but so far, it's an interesting read.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/what-does-it-mean-to-die?mbid=nl_Daily 012918 Control&CNDID=46214133&spMailingID=12836328&spUserID=MTcwMDQ5ODk4NDAwS0&spJobID=1322632240&spReportId=MTMyMjYzMjI0MAS2

This article was very interesting to me and, if the descriptions of the hours after Jahi’s surgery and the response of the hospital once she was dead are accurate, I can understand how we got to the situation we are currently in with this family.

Still, I believe she is dead and their unwillingness to accept that is horrible for the family and for jahi.

[mango_fandango]

Oh for the love of Christ...

WHEN WILL THIS RIDICULOUS CHARADE END FOR CRYING OUT LOUD??

[Chewing Gum]

Well that article is very interesting. If it is true that Jahi is moving fingers and following orders like the latter part of the article discusses, there must be some form of consciousness there. I’m not sure how I feel about that. 

[Alisamer]

1 hour ago, Chewing Gum said:

Well that article is very interesting. If it is true that Jahi is moving fingers and following orders like the latter part of the article discusses, there must be some form of consciousness there. I’m not sure how I feel about that. 

I really suspect a lot of that is people seeing what they want to see. I feel really bad for them, it must be so hard to lose a daughter, but... she's gone. She is. She has absolutely no quality of "life" whatsoever, and never will. Even if she can wiggle a finger once in a while on command, it is doing no one any good to keep her there, lying on a bed forever. It's not good for her family, it's not good for the taxpayers paying for it, it's not good for the doctors and nurses who have to "treat" her, or for the other living people who could use their care. It's not even good for her, if there is a tiny glimmer of "her" left at all. If they are Christian, they need to let her just go on to heaven, mourn her properly, and see her when they get there. 

If someone tried to keep my corpse "alive" like that, I'd do my darnedest to find a way to haunt them. 

My grandmother had alzheimers, and we were coerced into having a feeding tube put in for the convenience of the nursing home staff. We regretted it. She did live several years longer than she would have otherwise, but she spent those years frightened, delirious, stuck in a bed, unable to do anything on her own or recognize anyone, or even to effectively communicate. It was horrific. We knew she would have hated it, and were relieved for her sake once she finally passed and wasn't suffering anymore. 

[Buzzard]

12 hours ago, kacarlton said:

 

This article was very interesting to me and, if the descriptions of the hours after Jahi’s surgery and the response of the hospital once she was dead are accurate, I can understand how we got to the situation we are currently in with this family.

Still, I believe she is dead and their unwillingness to accept that is horrible for the family and for jahi.

 

The article is missing any discussion of the "hamburger" that was the cause of all this.  Either that didnt happen, or this article isnt credible because its selectively choosing what information to include.

Post the brain scans, not the videos, on facebook.

[Maggie Mae]

I think the New Yorker had an interesting perspective that I hadn't seen before. 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/what-does-it-mean-to-die

(I know it was linked upthread by @sparkles, just wanted to be clear at to which article I was talking about.) 

I think that sometimes hospital employees have a hard time being compassionate & Sandra's quote in the article is really important. 

Quote

But, she said, “I just wanted to get her out of there.” Sandra said she sometimes wonders, “If the hospital had been more compassionate, would we have fought so much?”

There are so many aspects to this situation, and it's just so heartbreaking.

[Chewing Gum]

@Alisamer you’re absolutely right, Thank you for your insights. I’m sorry your grandmother and your family went through that. 

[Rachel333]

23 hours ago, sparkles said:

Didn't mean to necro the thread, but I guess it's been deader than Jahi since not much is going on.

Damn. 

The article was interesting, and sad. I've gotten in trouble here for saying this before, but the concept of death often really isn't simple anymore. I agree that brain death is death, but I can see how a lot of people would be conflicted about it.

[LimeKitty]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

The article is missing any discussion of the "hamburger" that was the cause of all this.  Either that didnt happen, or this article isnt credible because its selectively choosing what information to include.

Post the brain scans, not the videos, on facebook.

What is this "hamburger" of which you speak? Had she supposedly eaten before her surgery? This poor girl, it's so dang sad.

[Rachel333]

17 minutes ago, LimeKitty said:

What is this "hamburger" of which you speak? Had she supposedly eaten before her surgery? This poor girl, it's so dang sad.

There's a rumor that when Jahi was in the ICU after surgery her family disregarded medical instructions and her grandmother fed her pieces of a hamburger and suctioned them herself. That very well might be true, but I'm not sure where the rumor came from and it hasn't been verified.

[Seahorse Wrangler]

I had to make the decision when to terminate medical assistance to my husband.  He'd hemorrhaged too much for the medical team to stave off irreversible brain damage.Even though the medics had tried for over 8 hours, they couldn't save him.

 

It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make. I waited until our children (SFs 18 and 15, SC 12) were there to say goodbye. After a couple of hours I asked my BIL if he agreed it was time and together we asked the doctors to end the intervention and his body stopped. The essence had gone along time  before.

 

 

[Rachel333]

I can't imagine how hard it would be to make those end of life decisions.

There's a short documentary on Netflix about end of life decisions called Extremis. Here's the trailer:

 

[Kailash]

I just googled this and I’m beyond horrified (if it’s accurate) that the coroner released Jahi’s body to the mother and she went to an undisclosed location and had a tracheostomy performed and a feeding tube inserted. She is no longer alive! Let her body go! 

This situation is so bizarre. It seems so clear to me. I’m very sorry for Jahi’s family’s loss. Her mother is obviously seriously mentally ill, and I wish for the other children’s sake someone would step in and let Jahi’s body go.