Ben, Jessa, Spurgeon Six

[SilverBeach]

Many of the intransigent racial issues unique to the US are because of hundreds of years of institutionalized chattel slavery based on race and the resultant psycho-social damage to society at large, with Blacks bearing horrible economic damage also. Europeans may not understand this context.

6 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I apologize for an offensive term. As a white person I can often be awkward in my terminologies. I am uncomfortable using the term black, I know many prefer the term, but as a white person saying "blacks" sounds offensive to me too.  I was also speaking to a European with no first hand US experience so I wanted to be clear I was speaking about poc in the states, who will have a different experience entirely then a poc in Sweden. 

Obviously I have no first hand experiences as a poc either, but I can be culturally sensitive and aware, and educated enough to know that your kids run in with police will be very different from my kids. 

I had a mentor in hs who said she was so sick of being pulled over and harassed in our mostly white middle class town (she was not white) that she took to wearing her Stanford sweatshirt and leaving medical textbooks in her back seat. She still got the crappy seats in restaurants and followed in stores. Both her and her husband were doctors. 

Oh, African American is not considered offensive, no worries about that. I personally find it meaningless, that's all.

Saying Black is no more offensive than saying White, and I capitalize both. It is merely a descriptor. 

[AliceInFundyland]

I've always been sensitive to that too...but as you just mentioned not all Black people are from Africa. So it seems inappropriate. But for some time that was the "pc" term to use. I appreciate that coming up in the conversation.

[Jinder Roles]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

Many of the intransigent racial issues unique to the US are because of hundreds of years of institutionalized chattel slavery based on race and the resultant psycho-social damage to society at large, with Blacks bearing horrible economic damage also. Europeans may not understand this context.

True, but Europeans also participated heavily in the slave trade and had numerous colonies all over the world for hundreds of years. I find this rather important fact conveniently forgotten too often. I know that most of the slaves/colonized didn't live in Europe (until a few decades ago with immigration) but racism and slavery are very much a part of European history. 

[quiverofdoubt]

24 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Many of the intransigent racial issues unique to the US are because of hundreds of years of institutionalized chattel slavery based on race and the resultant psycho-social damage to society at large, with Blacks bearing horrible economic damage also. Europeans may not understand this context.

Oh, African American is not considered offensive, no worries about that. I personally find it meaningless, that's all.

Saying Black is no more offensive than saying White, and I capitalize both. It is merely a descriptor. 

I'm on my tablet and a lazy typer so I don't capitalize anything unless the autocorrect does it. If I use lower case incorrectly blame that. Way too lazy for an up arrow,. Bla,w my current grammar problems on being 40 weeks pregnant and having mild contractions. I'm gonna use that as long as I can. 

 

As a white person who would like to be an ally and supportive, what is the best term to use? Black? Poc? Or does it vary by situation?  

 

@Jinder Roles Your posts are amazing and eloquent and everything I wish I could verbalize. Thank you. You are so right about the distinctions between race culture and ethnicity. I think my earlier post conflated them in order to try to respond to a specific poster. Everybody is part of many cultures, some very small- just your immediate family. Others much larger.  Even the duggars belong to more than one- the duggarborg and ati/got hard community. Most people operate in lots of different cultures on different levels, even in the same day. 

It was barely a blink of an eye ago in terms of history that people of color got the vote, and interracial marriages were illegal. Jim Crow is still very recent in cultural memory. The book the new Jim Crow law is very good btw.  There are so many wonderful things about non white culture in general that we don't learn about in school because the curricula is written by middle aged white men. It's a shame. 

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, Jinder Roles said:

True, but Europeans also participated heavily in the slave trade and had numerous colonies all over the world for hundreds of years. I find this rather important fact conveniently forgotten too often. I know that most of the slaves/colonized didn't leave in Europe (until a few decades ago with immigration) but racism and slavery are very much a part of European history. 

Yes, slavery was an established practice around the world before it hit the colonies in the 1600s.  Europeans colonialized big sections of the planet. Indentured servitude was big in Europe. People of color were specifically chosen for chattel slavery in the US because they could not run away and assimilate in larger society, plus being considered animals lessened the guilt of slavers.

US race relations are unique in that slavery actually split the Union and Southern culture became built upon white superiority which was codified into law. The recent controversy over removing the confederate flag from public building shows just how deep the split remains. 

[patsymae]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

This is exactly what Jen and Bill Klein (The Little Couple) are aiming for with Will (adopted from China) and Zoey (adopted from India). I admire them so much for this. Despite a very privileged "white" upbringing, it is important to them that their children know their origin.

I raised my Black child in a predominantly White community. However, she was exposed to plenty of "Black" culture because of our family. I see her as multiculturally intelligent, the same way I see myself. 

I do not care for the term African American. Blacks in America are an admixture of many races and ethnicities. Plus, if the term is used consistently, African Americans would mean Africans who obtained American citizenship, and that could include white South Africans, Egyptians, and all other persons from the African continent. I was born here, and I am a plain old American who happens to be Black.

Because of the abysmal state of race relations in the US, all parents of Black males must teach police encounter survival skills. These skill are necessary at all socioeconomic levels, urban and suburban. I have found that Whites sometimes do not understand why upper middle class parents would be concerned about this, but it's just reality. The stories I could tell....

Get real, The "little couple" are people who have had a "privileged" white upbringing? Are we now now to be blind to the challenges they have faced? Because we "don't see size'?
 

"I do not care for the term African American. Blacks in America are an admixture of many races and ethnicities. Plus, if the term is used consistently, African Americans would mean Africans who obtained American citizenship, and that could include white South Africans, Egyptians, and all other persons from the African continent. I was born here, and I am a plain old American who happens to be Black."

White people don't get to define the term "African American." 

"I raised my Black child in a predominantly White community."

Not a surprise.

"However, she was exposed to plenty of "Black" culture because of our family. I see her as multiculturally intelligent, the same way I see myself. 

That you put "Black" culture in quotes says volumes about it, as does you saying that you see this child "the same way I see myself."

"I am a plain old American who happens to be Black." Okay, confused. Are you an American who is black and doesn't care for the term African American, etc., and just see yourself as a " plain old American who happens to be Black" (but then why would you be raising your child in a mostly white community?) or are you projecting this onto your child?  That she's the same as your white self but just "happens" to be black?
Maybe you should take her to Sweden and pretend she's from Uganda. All is colorblind and she'll never notice.

[SilverBeach]

15 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I'm on my tablet and a lazy typer so I don't capitalize anything unless the autocorrect does it. If I use lower case incorrectly blame that. Way too lazy for an up arrow,. Bla,w my current grammar problems on being 40 weeks pregnant and having mild contractions. I'm gonna use that as long as I can. 

 

As a white person who would like to be an ally and supportive, what is the best term to use? Black? Poc? Or does it vary by situation?  

 

@Jender_Rolls Your posts are amazing and eloquent and everything I wish I could verbalize. Thank you. You are so right about the distinctions between race culture and ethnicity. I think. Y earlier post conflated them in order to try to respond to a specific poster. Everybody is part of many cultures, some very small- just your immediate family. Others much larger.  Even the duggars belong to more than one- the duggarborg and ati/got hard community. Most people operate in lots of different cultures on different levels, even in the same day. 

It was barely a blink of an eye ago in terms of history that people of color got the vote, and interracial marriages were illegal. Jim Crow is still very recent in cultural memory. The book the new Jim Crow law is very good btw.  There are so many wonderful things about non white culture in general that we don't learn about in school because the curricula is written by middle aged white men. It's a shame. 

I was amazed when I became college educated and realized how whitewashed my education had been in the 1960s and 70s. My mom was raised in the Jim Crow south, as was my ex, so yes it is a recent cultural event.

Call me anything but the N word, LOL. Seriously, African American has caught on, but Black is OK too. Use whatever you want. Capitalization isn't necessary, it's a practice of mine to show respect, but I'm admittedly not 100% consistent.

Best wishes for an uneventful birth, it's any minute now for you!

Race(s), culture(s), and ethnicity (ies) all weave into the tapestry of self, and gives humans the beautiful and awesome diversity that we have. Embrace it all!

[iweartanktops]

56 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I apologize for an offensive term. As a white person I can often be awkward in my terminologies. I am uncomfortable using the term black, I know many prefer the term, but as a white person saying "blacks" sounds offensive to me too.  I was also speaking to a European with no first hand US experience so I wanted to be clear I was speaking about poc in the states, who will have a different experience entirely then a poc in Sweden. 

Obviously I have no first hand experiences as a poc either, but I can be culturally sensitive and aware, and educated enough to know that your kids run in with police will be very different from my kids. 

I am also not offended by "African American." I agree with @SilverBeach, that it's somewhat meaningless, but I used it in my post for the same reasons you mentioned. I rarely refer to myself as African American. I usually say I'm Black or a POC. I understand why many White people are hesitant to use the term, "Black," but I'm fine with it. I do not appreciate the term, "colored." And obviously the "n" word is not okay. 

I have enjoyed your posts in this conversation.

[SilverBeach]

15 minutes ago, patsymae said:

 

 

 

I quoted you but nothing shows up in the quote box.

You are totally off base. In case you missed it here and all over this forum, I AM AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN 100% BLACK SO I DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, white people defining African American. ?????

And since you want to know, I raised my child in a predominantly White area because I went to segregated subpar Chicago public schools and was not going to subject my child to a second rate education. I went for good schools in the suburbs and will never apologize to anybody for it. Our family gave her all the blackness she needed.

Truly, I do not understand where you are coming from and why you are attacking me. I am stating what I think, you are free to state what you think,but you are not free to hurl insults.

[patsymae]

12 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I quoted you but nothing shows up in the quote box.

You are totally off base. In case you missed it here and all over this forum, I AM AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN 100% BLACK SO I DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, white people defining African American. ?????

And since you want to know, I raised my child in a predominantly White area because I went to segregated subpar Chicago public schools and was not going to subject my child to a second rate education. I went for good schools in the suburbs and will never apologize to anybody for it. Our family gave her all the blackness she needed.

Truly, I do not understand where you are coming from and why you are attacking me. I am stating what I think, you are free to state what you think,but you are not free to hurl insults.

My bad. I read this as a white person who adopted a black child. Sincere apologies and going off to eat some crow.

[SilverBeach]

Oh, @patsymae, you also misunderstood my Little Couple remark. I meant that despite the privileged upbringing the CHILDREN are getting, it is important to Bill and Jen that their children know their cultures of origin. I would never say one bad thing about them, unlike the Duggars and Bates Bill and Jen are good people who have indeed overcome many trials. I don't know how you got a criticism of them out of my comment.

Another explanation for you: I put "Black" culture in quotes because like another poster said, Black culture is not monolithic.

You got it now?

 

[patsymae]

Just now, SilverBeach said:

Oh, @patsymae, you also misunderstood my Little Couple remark. I meant that despite the privileged upbringing the CHILDREN are getting, it is important to Bill and Jen that their children know their cultures of origin. I would never say one bad thing about them, unlike the Duggars and Bates Bill and Jen are good people who have indeed overcome many trials. I don't know how you got a criticism of them out of my comment.

Another explanation for you: I put "Black" culture in quotes because like another poster said, Black culture is not monolithic.

You got it now?

 

Yup

[quiverofdoubt]

13 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

I am also not offended by "African American." I agree with @SilverBeach, that it's somewhat meaningless, but I used it in my post for the same reasons you mentioned. I rarely refer to myself as African American. I usually say I'm Black or a POC. I understand why many White people are hesitant to use the term, "Black," but I'm fine with it. I do not appreciate the term, "colored." And obviously the "n" word is not okay. 

I have enjoyed your posts in this conversation.

I've said that word once in my life.  I was about 7, and whispered it to a friend in the car. In a "this is a word I heard" way, not using it in context, if that makes sense. NO idea where i heard it used, or what i thought it meant. My dad was driving. I'll never forget his face, his anger, or the way he almost crashed the car going 70 on the freeway when he overheard me. It made enough of an impression that I never used it again. It wasn't till i was older that i understood it's meanings and history and why i should never say it.  I can't imagine that there is a white (american) who would consider that an ok term to use.  

Except maybe trump and some of his followers. That bunch is scary.

[SilverBeach]

3 minutes ago, patsymae said:

My bad. I read this as a white person who adopted a black child. Sincere apologies and going off to eat some crow.

It's cool! Miscommunications happen. You can disregard the second post I tagged you in.

[Granwych]

On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 0:17 PM, Wenny said:

Jessa, Ben...no one is going to drop a baby on your doorstep. I can't tell if it is a Hero complex or White Savior. 

Actually, it's pure concern for said child, mercifully.

[iweartanktops]

4 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I've said that word once in my life.  I was about 7, and whispered it to a friend in the car. In a "this is a word I heard" way, not using it in context, if that makes sense. NO idea where i heard it used, or what i thought it meant. My dad was driving. I'll never forget his face, his anger, or the way he almost crashed the car going 70 on the freeway when he overheard me. It made enough of an impression that I never used it again. It wasn't till i was older that i understood it's meanings and history and why i should never say it.  I can't imagine that there is a white (american) who would consider that an ok term to use.  

Except maybe trump and some of his followers. That bunch is scary.

Sadly, many people are totally fine with using that word. It truly breaks my heart that so many young children use it. Those kids are taught that word, and taught to use it towards Black people. Sadly, the first time another kid used it towards me, I was 6 years old! First grade! Children don't care about race, hate is learned. Some ass hole racist stole that child's innocence by teaching them hate.

[quiverofdoubt]

I think one thing we've established with this conversation is that there is no way bj could handle an interracial adoption. At least not to the child's benefit. The complexities of race, ethnicity and cultural identity are way beyond their sheltered upbringings and sotdr.  The only hope is that they would shelter the child to such an extent that he or she may not have to deal with direct racism until they escape the cult. But they would be ill prepared to deal with the real world and feel at a loss in terms of identity. It would be a horrible trainwreck overall. And that's not even counting the huge amount of baggage an adopted child may come with to begin with, regardless of race.

[Jinder Roles]

@quiverofdoubt Thank you very much! I think in discussions about race and culture it's important to be specific and understand the significance of history and the nuances in all of these issues. 

Wishing you a safe labour and healthy baby/babies!! 

 

[quiverofdoubt]

8 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

Sadly, many people are totally fine with using that word. It truly breaks my heart that so many young children use it. Those kids are taught that word, and taught to use it towards Black people. Sadly, the first time another kid used it towards me, I was 6 years old! First grade! Children don't care about race, hate is learned. Some ass hole racist stole that child's innocence by teaching them hate.

I was afraid of that  I mean, I know it happens-that white people use that word against black people. But i guess i didn't realize it was so common.  White privilege of denial there. We had kids at my high school show up to a foot ball game in kkk outfits. It sparked a lot of student led backlash and protest thank god, including a research group i was part of determined to unearth the unequal treatment and education at our supposedly top ranked school.  I was called a race traitor for being part of t hat research.  I can't imagine the pain of being called the n word at 6 years old. That's also why it's important for white adoptive parents to discuss those matters with their black children. It may not be comfortable, or a challenge the parent has had to face, but their children will need their support to figure out how to handle those situations.

Thanks @Jinder Roles.  This baby is getting eviction notices left and right. It's time kid. It's one baby btw, but i'm so big (and she's so big) that i'm getting twin comments. No twins, just a 9ish pound baby. 

[Grimalkin]

8 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Great post, @quiverofdoubt. Also, @Jinder Roles, you made some great points. 

I've been reading this thread, and I want to contribute to the conversation, as I feel I have some interesting experience. I'm not feeling well and I have a terrible headache, so I'm going to do my best. I just want to warn you all, @foreign fundie, I may not be very eloquent.  

Foreign Fundie, a lot of this is in response to your question, "If, as you admit, the concept of race is  biologically outdated,  why hang on to it? What is helpful about it?" 

I'm African American. I was not adopted, so both of my parents are African American as well. I was raised in a fairly affluent, white demographic. My parents didn't talk about race a whole lot when myself and my siblings were growing up (I wish they had). I think in many ways, I identified as being white. All of my friends were white, there were only a handful of Black students in my high school, in our social circles, etc. The thing is, no matter how little we, as a family, talked about race issues, they were thrown in our faces quite a bit. We simply could not ignore racism and racial issues if we wanted to. Each of us, at different times, were called the "n" word in school, by the time we reached 3rd grade!

I get really frustrated when people say things like, "you'll always find racism if you look for it." People have actually said that here on FJ. Sure, I guess that's true, but if you're black, racism will find you, whether you want to see it or not. How many white people are pulled over in their own neighborhood and asked what they're doing there? My guess is, not many. When I'm out with my family, and people see us getting into luxury vehicles, they will stop us and ask the most ridiculous questions, because we must be drug dealers to afford these cars, right? Or the eleventy billion times I've been told that I'm not really black, since I don't "talk like black people." Ugh. . These comments and occurrences really start to pile up, and you begin to lose your patience. The fact is, perhaps some people see us as "just people with different colored skin," but many people see their own bias, stereotypes and some see pure hate. 

Regarding adoption, as QOD said, it doesn't matter who raised you, and I'll add how much money you have, etc. If you have brown skin, society sees a black person, and you will be treated as such. 

I'm kind of rambling, and I have countless examples of racism and discrimination that I've personally experienced, but I purposely used more subtle examples in this post.  

 

         I grew up in the same sort of environment. There were only a handful of black children in my Catholic school. So that and the Cosby Show were My main influences........except perhaps Beverly Hills Cop which I have seen a few dozen times, and the lethal weapon movies. I never understood the negative stereotypes until I was in high school. I was obviously a bit shelterd too. No internet, cable was not available in my area.

        I usually use black instead of African American partly because it is only one syllable, partly because the black people I know call themselves black, and mainly because none of the black people I interact with regularly are American.

         The whole colorblind movement never made sense to me and almost seemed more harmful than helpful. It seemed like you were supposed to ignore a person's race. Not acknowledging it seems more disrespectful to me. If your not supposed to talk about something then it must be because it's bad.

      Lastly, I listened to a TED Radio Hour podcast today called Beyond Tolerance. It was a good episode and worth listening to for anyone interested in this topic.

 

[Grimalkin]

@iweartanktops I am not trying to imply I understand how you felt growing up. I was thinking more on how you said you identified with being white. I did not see any  major cultural differences between the black kids I knew and the white kids.

[iweartanktops]

3 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

@iweartanktops I am not trying to imply I understand how you felt growing up. I was thinking more on how you said you identified with being white. I did not see any  major cultural differences between the black kids I knew and the white kids.

Oh, I thought that's what you meant. No worries! Thanks for clarifying, though.

Sometimes I just "like" a response without saying anything, just to acknowledge, but have nothing to add. 

I also went to Catholic school for some of my early education. 

[samurai_sarah]

In my personal experience, as a POC, who also happens to be European, racism is the same shite all over the world. I can pretend all I like that ethnicity doesn't matter in Europe and that people just accept that I'm German. Until I get called a "gook" again. So let's not pretend that Europe is somehow better. Different to the US, but certainly not better.

[foreign fundie]

5 hours ago, patsymae said:

"Am I still on track?"

 

No, you are so far off the track that if you were a train you would be plunging off the Rockies into oblivion.

We get it--you are European, you are "colorblind," you are the amazing kind of person who doesn't understand why the rest of us keep harping on this "race" (which you define as biology only) except that maybe we are just the dumb Americans who haven't figured it out yet.  This was a really good forum discussion in which it was important to bring up issues of race, ethnicity and more in relation to adoption. And some people tried to also educate you. But the continuous disingenuous "so sorry I just don't understand you Americans who must have problems that we enlightened Swedes just can't figure out" has worn thin. Give it a rest.

I would, though, love to continue discussion about some of the issues that have been brought up here with some of the other posters.

Sorry if I have offended you in any way. It seems our understandings of race, ethnicity, culture and heritage are too different to converse in a meaningful way. I particulary struggle with the concept of race, one that does not exist in this particular fasion where I am from, and that seems to entail various things that I would categorise differently. Although I learned from reading here that 'race' in an American context (and some other places too) is much more than a biological term (which is my primary understanding, hence the 'out dated'), the different answers here have confused me and I feel I do not grasp it fully.

In the course of this discussion I have been called color blind several times, which I understand is by no means a compliment.  I have not used the term,  but have argued that color should not be an issue (or if you will, a focus) in a family. I made that point because of the way the adoptive family in the article made such a point of their kids being black. And I don't believe making a point of your kid's color (color as in skin shade) is helpful or necessary. I was not arguing part of their identity should be ignored. When I said a child like that cannot acquire his culture, I did not mean that a child cannot learn about his culture/heritage/ ethnic background/ family history or race. I meant to say I think the child wouldn't feel he fully belongs within that 'group' or would respond to issues in life in the same way  as those  from his background who were not adopted would. Nor that the child achieving full belonging to his group of origin this has to be the parents' goal, since it is adoption, not foster care. You would naturally raise your child to belong with you, right? But your and my understandings of what culture is (and maybe also about the nature of adoption) are so different that I fear I cannot make myself understood and I do not wish to offend you further. 

If I say that my friends' color doesn't matter to me, I speak as a small ethnic minority with a different skin color from the majority, who is not allowed to forget for a second that she looks different. Making friends with people around me me is a daily struggle, not because of the color difference, but of the cultural differences. But I understand from you that a black person in a white society has different categories all together (race, heritage, history, collective memory) and therefor can not see color as neutral nor can the white people who share this  context.

I wonder if what you call racism in the black/ white context is what I would call cultural superiority in my context. I suppose there is some overlap.  

In my context,  the color of my friends is  the easy one to forget. Feelings of cultural superiority are harder to overcome for both them and me. Also it is so hard to really understand each other when your experiences and world view (and languages)are so different. 

I assume cultural misunderstanding has also been a factor in this discussion.  So no hard feelings from my side. Hope you will enjoy the rest of the discussion, and I will read along quietly from now on. Best of luck!

[MatthewDuggar]

I really don't have anything more to add regarding the race issues here in the US.  There are times when I think we've come a long way, but I get very discouraged when I hear my supposed non-racist "friends" (and family) easily use the "n" word in causal all-white company.