Jill Duggar is Now a Lay Midwife

[icecreamycakeycake]

I don't think it's necessarily weird to see the birth of a sibling, but what bothered me about it is that only the daughters were present. I don't like the way they perpetuate this attitude that childbirth is women's business and men should know as little as possible about it. It was educational for the girls, so it surely would have been just as educational for the boys. I think the howlers were all to young, but why couldn't Josh and John learn about the childbirth process? I am also doubtful that the girls had any choice in the matter, which also bothers me.

I was more bothered by one of the Josie episodes when she make one of the howlers leave the room so she could change a diaper. I could never imagine her allowing a male child witness a birth.

[emmiedahl]

I think birth is an intensely female situation. Traditionally, women gave birth with other experienced women. I like that model for modern times when it can be accomplished without risk to the baby or the mother. I understand if some people prefer to have mixed genders, but I like the whole girl power aspect of birth. If I had my way (and if my husband was not a great guy who should not be deprived of experiencing his children's births) I would go for all females in the delivery room.

My husband tried to be helpful but he was a bit in the way. He would tell me to breath, and I was already breathing--obviously, being alive and an aerobic organism. He got dizzy watching them insert the epidural line with my youngest, and the nurses told me that for some reason more dads pass out then than in the actual birth. Many young men and boys are grossed out by female periods, it is very normal, and I cannot see how a bloody birth could be a good experience.

[donks]

My husband left the room for the epidural, but was there for everything else. He did stay up by my head though. He didn't look so good, pale and queasy. Lol. Bless him. ;)

[Kaylee]

I'm the opposite. I love my midwife & doula but, during labor, I really wanted my husband there the whole time and wanted my mom to GTFO (of course, I didn't want her there in the first place). He was great though, which surprised me. He was a total ass about most things while I was pregnant, but he did a lot of reading on birth and parenting, went to all of the childbirth classes with me, and was explaining the cascade of interventions to my mom while I was in labor because she wouldn't shut up about why I should "just" get an epidural, pitocin, etc right from the start. I guess they're used to men getting queasy at epdidurals and things though because they wouldn't let him into the OR when I had to have a c-section until after they did the spinal. He stayed there with me, too, and stayed with out son until they bought him to me (my request, because we opted out of the eye ointment & HepB shot, which ended up causing a bit of a confrontation).

[bananacat]

I think birth is an intensely female situation. Traditionally, women gave birth with other experienced women. I like that model for modern times when it can be accomplished without risk to the baby or the mother. I understand if some people prefer to have mixed genders, but I like the whole girl power aspect of birth. If I had my way (and if my husband was not a great guy who should not be deprived of experiencing his children's births) I would go for all females in the delivery room.

My husband tried to be helpful but he was a bit in the way. He would tell me to breath, and I was already breathing--obviously, being alive and an aerobic organism. He got dizzy watching them insert the epidural line with my youngest, and the nurses told me that for some reason more dads pass out then than in the actual birth. Many young men and boys are grossed out by female periods, it is very normal, and I cannot see how a bloody birth could be a good experience.

I disagree. "Traditionally" is the biggest weasel word ever. What specific times and cultures? There's no reason that men shouldn't be allowed to be involved in childbirth. In 99% of cases, they caused they pregnancy in the first place, and they all were birthed. It's not girl power at all to exclude all men. Surely you don't think of the Duggars as supporting girl power?

If men are annoying because they tell you the wrong things, that's not inherent to being a man. It's because they've been socialized to be bossy while at the same time being excluded from the big taboo of childbirth. The answer isn't to exclude them completely; it's to educate them as much as we educate women and then tell them to STFU and be supportive.

And yes, in our culture men are grossed about by periods. Women are grossed out by them too. Neither should be. Again, the answer is more exposure so that this topic becomes less taboo. It's not productive at all to keep it the dirty little secret, even if you dress it up with the "girl power" excuse.

ETA: Give men some credit. They're routinely expected to deal with gross things. But suddenly their delicate sensibilities are offended when it comes to childbirth? No, I think men are perfectly capable of handling it like adults.

[Maude]

I disagree. "Traditionally" is the biggest weasel word ever. What specific times and cultures? There's no reason that men shouldn't be allowed to be involved in childbirth. In 99% of cases, they caused they pregnancy in the first place, and they all were birthed. It's not girl power at all to exclude all men. Surely you don't think of the Duggars as supporting girl power?

If men are annoying because they tell you the wrong things, that's not inherent to being a man. It's because they've been socialized to be bossy while at the same time being excluded from the big taboo of childbirth. The answer isn't to exclude them completely; it's to educate them as much as we educate women and then tell them to STFU and be supportive.

And yes, in our culture men are grossed about by periods. Women are grossed out by them too. Neither should be. Again, the answer is more exposure so that this topic becomes less taboo. It's not productive at all to keep it the dirty little secret, even if you dress it up with the "girl power" excuse.

ETA: Give men some credit. They're routinely expected to deal with gross things. But suddenly their delicate sensibilities are offended when it comes to childbirth? No, I think men are perfectly capable of handling it like adults.

QFT. I wish forums had 'like' buttons.

[emmiedahl]

I disagree. "Traditionally" is the biggest weasel word ever. What specific times and cultures? There's no reason that men shouldn't be allowed to be involved in childbirth. In 99% of cases, they caused they pregnancy in the first place, and they all were birthed. It's not girl power at all to exclude all men. Surely you don't think of the Duggars as supporting girl power?

If men are annoying because they tell you the wrong things, that's not inherent to being a man. It's because they've been socialized to be bossy while at the same time being excluded from the big taboo of childbirth. The answer isn't to exclude them completely; it's to educate them as much as we educate women and then tell them to STFU and be supportive.

And yes, in our culture men are grossed about by periods. Women are grossed out by them too. Neither should be. Again, the answer is more exposure so that this topic becomes less taboo. It's not productive at all to keep it the dirty little secret, even if you dress it up with the "girl power" excuse.

ETA: Give men some credit. They're routinely expected to deal with gross things. But suddenly their delicate sensibilities are offended when it comes to childbirth? No, I think men are perfectly capable of handling it like adults.

Okay, every hunter and gatherer society known to anthropologists and also the traditional cultures of the Middle East, Africa, Asia and much of Europe. With occasional but very rare exceptions. Time period: prior to less than a century ago. While I agree that boys should not be grossed out by periods, many of them are. Seeing their mother's vagina contorted to accommodate a baby is not a way to introduce them to these issues. I was responding to the idea that a woman who is comfortable with her daughters in the room should be equally comfortable inviting the sons.

I never said men are not capable. They are. Most men in the US attend their wives' births. But I do think it is a uniquely feminine experience and that female attendants who are experienced in labor and delivery is a great set-up for me. For me. I understand that some people do not see labor as a "girl power" experience, but I do. It was the most female and the most powerful experience of my life. It is not about shame or keeping feminine things out of men's sight to protect their delicate sensibilities, but rather that it is an experience women understand on a deeper level.

I understand that some people strongly agree with me, and others strongly disagree. That's fine.

[Coconut Flan]

Thank heavens my husband was a medic or I might not be here today. He was truly a lifesaver during our first labor. I realize not all husbands have medical training, but I wouldn't have wanted my mother there under any circumstances. She is no good in a medical situation much less a crisis. I wanted someone who would stand up for me and what I wanted and to look out for the baby's and my health.

[YPestis]

I agree that men are perfectly capable of handling such "gross" stuff like childbirth. I think some are socially conditioned to think childbirth and girly parts are taboo for them. Frankly, I don't think labor and delivery is anymore disgusting than any other medical procedure. More importantly, some women and men may appreciate having certain people in the birthing room or participating in other aspects of the pregnancy. Years ago, people used to think changing diapers and caring for young children is a womenly job and only strange men would want to do the same. Now, we know it's healthy for fathers to actively care for their children. I hope we also change our attitude towards childbirth and encourage fathers to not be afraid to participate in the entire baby making process.

[Miggy]

My second delivery = 1 male obstetrician, 2 male midwives, 1 husband and much better care during labour and delivery than I received in with my first and third deliveries.

[Deleted07]

a new photo on the Mommy's Butterfly facebook page:

[gustava]

a new photo on the Mommy's Butterfly facebook page:

PULL YOUR HAIR OUT OF YOUR FACE WHEN WORKING IN MEDICINE!!!!!!!!!!

[E Street Fan]

a new photo on the Mommy's Butterfly facebook page:

Maybe she is allowed to treat nonfundies, after all? Good for her; she looks happy.

Wouldn't it be so ironic if Jill turned out to be the Duggar Who Escapes?

[Deleted07]

yeah I was thinking, oooh shorts and a low-cut top; NIKE!

But considering the age of the children in the shot and 1 on the way (say what 3 under 3-4?) guessing she's fundie-lite.

[lilwriter85]

yeah I was thinking, oooh shorts and a low-cut top; NIKE!

But considering the age of the children in the shot and 1 on the way (say what 3 under 3-4?) guessing she's fundie-lite.

I'm also guessing fundie lite or possibly mainstream Christian. I don't think Jill will ever work with atheists, Muslims, or other non-Christians.

[lilith]

yeah I was thinking, oooh shorts and a low-cut top; NIKE!

But considering the age of the children in the shot and 1 on the way (say what 3 under 3-4?) guessing she's fundie-lite.

That could have been me, and there is no way I'm fundie lite, I just had my three children in less than four years. I may well be crazy to have done it, but I am not religious at all.

[NurseNell]

That could have been me, and there is no way I'm fundie lite, I just had my three children in less than four years. I may well be crazy to have done it, but I am not religious at all.

My mother had 4 of us in 4 years, and she was a liberal Unitarian. Of course today she wouldn't have 4 in 4 years but birth control has come a long way since the 1940's.

[gilora]

I'm also guessing fundie lite or possibly mainstream Christian. I don't think Jill will ever work with atheists, Muslims, or other non-Christians.

I don't think non-Christians would work with Jill.

And am I the omly one who thinks Mommy's Butterfly sounds like a sex toy?

[Georgiana]

I don't think non-Christians would work with Jill.

And am I the omly one who thinks Mommy's Butterfly sounds like a sex toy?

It sounds like a really good sex toy, no less!

Honestly, I totally thought that's what it was at first, and I was so confused how that ended up on this thread.

[Deleted07]

I don't think non-Christians would work with Jill.

And am I the omly one who thinks Mommy's Butterfly sounds like a sex toy?

*snort* you're not the only one... :whistle:

[lilwriter85]

I don't think non-Christians would work with Jill.

And am I the omly one who thinks Mommy's Butterfly sounds like a sex toy?

I agree they wouldn't. Right now an atheist couple I know is expecting their third child. They have had homebirths with the previous two kids and they would never work with a fundie "lay midwife".

[NurseNell]

I don't think non-Christians would work with Jill.

Why? When I am looking for a new health care provider I don't find out what religion they are. I check that they have a valid medical license, if there is any disciplinary action, and if they've been arrested for DWI. I could care less what their religion is. I know my GI doc is Muslim because he was on TV at a community meeting regarding building a mosque in that suburb. And my lung doctor is an Israeli and Jewish because he told me in one of our many conversations. My other doctors, I don't know.

[NurseNell]

I agree they wouldn't. Right now an atheist couple I know is expecting their third child. They have had homebirths with the previous two kids and they would never work with a fundie "lay midwife".

I would only work with a licensed nurse midwife or a M.D. but I wouldn't care what their religion was, as long as they had the proper credentials.

[marmalade]

I would only work with a licensed nurse midwife or a M.D. but I wouldn't care what their religion was, as long as they had the proper credentials.

Well, Jill is still apprenticing, so I imagine her supervisor is somewhere out of camera range (or took the picture). I suggest she get a auto-powered BP machine until she's certified and can take BP measurements by hand that match a machine. There's no shame in it and the patient can actually get a visual, which for many people, can be a wake-up call if things are off.

[gilora]

Why? When I am looking for a new health care provider I don't find out what religion they are. I check that they have a valid medical license, if there is any disciplinary action, and if they've been arrested for DWI. I could care less what their religion is. I know my GI doc is Muslim because he was on TV at a community meeting regarding building a mosque in that suburb. And my lung doctor is an Israeli and Jewish because he told me in one of our many conversations. My other doctors, I don't know.

It's not a question of Jill's religion, it's the fact that she seeme the type to try and shove it down people's throats. I can also see her getting all judgmental at patients who aren't "ideal" in her view -- a woman who had an elective abortion in the past or a lesbian couple having a baby with donor sperm.