When fundies get real.

[emmiedahl]

The girls are taught to submit to males. But either way, guns and martial arts make them no safer than they would be without them. The only people who will ever have a chance to molest them are people they would not shoot, and also people they have been told to obey.

[Witsec7]

The girls are taught to submit to males. But either way, guns and martial arts make them no safer than they would be without them. The only people who will ever have a chance to molest them are people they would not shoot, and also people they have been told to obey.

QFT

Autonomy over ones person and teaching your child to trust their gut is far more important a lesson to teach young woman who will be sheltered and under the authority of a man for the rest of their lives. I doubt if any of these woman are being taught that marital rape is a crime, the whole culture of submission permits husbands to use intimidation in order to have sex.

[Patsy]

So in short: there's nothing that revolutionary about the fact that fundie royalty wouldn't want their child attacked by a stranger. It isn't "getting real" to say 'I hope my daughter would shoot an attempted rapist'. And if your first reaction to a rape statistic like that is "Well, I've trained my daughter to use guns!", you are a- explicitly saying that this would save them (ignoring all the things pointed out by others above), and b- ignoring all the other reactions that actually do "get real" and focus on addressing the issue.

[emmiedahl]

In other words, no one has gotten real. They still will not even acknowledge who actually poses a threat to their daughters or work to prevent that. Just more gun play, and heads are still firmly inserted up asses.

[ChickeyMonkey]

Perry and his wife should be teaching the girls how to use their gut instincts and intuition.

Since that's what I was going to say, I'll also add:

Learning to not be afraid to be loud and draw attention to oneself when feeling threatened.

That "no" is not a bad word and is OK to say.

[flojo]

QFT

Autonomy over ones person and teaching your child to trust their gut is far more important a lesson to teach young woman who will be sheltered and under the authority of a man for the rest of their lives. I doubt if any of these woman are being taught that marital rape is a crime, the whole culture of submission permits husbands to use intimidation in order to have sex.

Totally agree. The whole way that these girls are being raised is leaving them open to so much abuse. So much.

[godlytomatosoup]

If their first line of self-defense against rape is guns, I hope they're saving up for a legal defence fund in case one of their daughters actually shoots an attempted rapist. The courts aren't as sympathetic to self-defence as you'd think they would be.

I'd prefer it if the Coughlans said to their children (daughters and sons) "If you tell us someone touched you against your will, we will believe you and support you. It doesn't matter if you were somewhere you weren't supposed to be, or doing or wearing something we'd forbidden, this is more important. No matter who it is, you can tell us and we'll believe you, and it's not your fault even if they say it is."

[Witsec7]

In other words, no one has gotten real. They still will not even acknowledge who actually poses a threat to their daughters or work to prevent that. Just more gun play, and heads are still firmly inserted up asses.

Yes and I don't think there is much room left up in there with tabitha2 wanting to occupy the space along with them.

[RR88]

You know me; I am certainly supportive of parents teaching their daughters to become good markswomen.

This is silly, though. Why? Because these girls are also taught to submit to men. I believe that I own my body; these girls and women don't. If a man tries to rape or murder me, I'll have no moral qualms about keeping myself safe in any manner, up to and including the use of deadly force.

...These girls and women, though, will have moral qualms about doing the same thing. When you're taught that men are to be submitted to, that your husband is a demigod who must be obeyed, that your place as a woman is an inferior one...How is knowing how to shoot a useful skill? You're never going to use it because you've been brainwashed (or coerced) into a lifestyle that doesn't allow you to defend yourself even if you have been taught how to use weaponry.

[holothuroidea]

Having your chattel wife or daughter impregnated by someone is the ultimate insult in a patriarchy, and it is aboslutely not surprising at all that a father would be gung-ho about preventing the rape of his daughters. Patriarchs have been imposing "modest" dress, limitations and self-defense forever.

Notice, though, that all the pressure of preventing rape is placed on women. I would have been very impressed if he said, "I don't want women to be raped, so I teach my sons that women have a right to autonomy and to respect that." He has no interest in making sure his sons don't commit rape, fundies teach their boys that they are uncontrollable animals who must have sex and have a right to take it when they want it.

Also, what the hell kind of world are we living in where you have to nearly kill someone (shoot them) in order to protect yourself!? I'd prefer not to perpetuate that, kthx.

Perry and his wife should be teaching the girls how to use their gut instincts and intuition.

Ugh, if they have any left. :(

[Guest Anonymous]

Ugh, if they have any left. :(

Sadly you're right. Those will have been beaten out of them. Trusting your instincts, maintaining your boundaries even if you have to be impolite to do so, believing that you own your body and should get to decide what happens to it, and even saying "no" are things that are generally considered bad/disrespectful/rebellious in a fundie family.

Those are things that can help keep people safe, and fundies sure as hell aren't teaching them to their children.

[freejoytoo]

Knowing how to use a gun won't stop you from being raped. The pro-gun posters with slogans about how these women won't get raped really, really bother me. Firstly, they imply that it's the victim's fault for not being equipped with a gun, secondly, they don't acknowledge the fact that the rapist could seize the weapon and thirdly it assumes that all raped are committed by strangers and not someone you already know, which is statistically more likely, which would make it both unlikely for you to have a gun with you and difficult to shoot if you did.

Ugh. I HATE guns.

[RR88]

I've used a weapon to prevent/stop an assault before. Again, though, weapons are useless if you're not willing/capable. I doubt fundie girls, who have been taught to obey men (and their husbands especially), would be willing to shoot a rapist.

[holothuroidea]

Sadly you're right. Those will have been beaten out of them. Trusting your instincts, maintaining your boundaries even if you have to be impolite to do so, believing that you own your body and should get to decide what happens to it, and even saying "no" are things that are generally considered bad/disrespectful/rebellious in a fundie family.

Those are things that can help keep people safe, and fundies sure as hell aren't teaching them to their children.

Yes, so much this.

The last time I went to the grocery store, I encountered a creeper. A white-haired man in suspenders completely invading my space (he kept inching toward me) staring at my chest. There were people around, there was a cashier right in front of me who saw that I was uncomfortable and he was being creepy, but nobody said anything to him. Luckily he scooted away with his head down when I gave him a look with the fire of a thousand suns, but if I had to vocalize "Give me some space!" *I* would have been the one who got the dirty looks.

Fundie girls have no hope in situations like that. They would "keep sweet" I am sure, because it would have been so unfeminine and bitchy to call out a creepy old man like that.

[holothuroidea]

I've used a weapon to prevent/stop an assault before. Again, though, weapons are useless if you're not willing/capable. I doubt fundie girls, who have been taught to obey men (and their husbands especially), would be willing to shoot a rapist.

And I've stopped an assault with no weapon and no self defense classes. An assault by an armed man. It's much more about, "YOU WILL NOT DO THIS TO ME!" than "Oh, I have a gun and I know how to shoot cardboard cutouts."

[Terrie]

Guns and physical self-defense aren't going to protect them against someone using a date rape drug. Good personal boundaries, instinct and a strong sense of self-worth will help. But, of course, those are what they try to surgically remove from these girls.

[RR88]

Fundie girls have no hope in situations like that. They would "keep sweet" I am sure, because it would have been so unfeminine and bitchy to call out a creepy old man like that.

Exactly. My guns would be useless to me if I had also been trained to be a meek and submissive woman.

And I've stopped an assault with no weapon and no self defense classes. An assault by an armed man. It's much more about, "YOU WILL NOT DO THIS TO ME!" than "Oh, I have a gun and I know how to shoot cardboard cutouts."

That's fine. I'm not expecting you to go out and buy a Sig Sauer. :)

[2xx1xy1JD]

To me, it's a big red flag when someone trots out the term "forcible" rape. By definition, rape is sex without proper consent. Rape is bad, period.

I plan on giving self-defense lessons to my kids, but what I remember most from my Wen-do classes was the focus on being assertive, unafraid to really yell NO.

[RR88]

To me, it's a big red flag when someone trots out the term "forcible" rape. By definition, rape is sex without proper consent. Rape is bad, period.

I concur.

[holothuroidea]

I concur.

Thirded.

[RR88]

I wouldn't trust a fundie girl to be a reliable shot, anyway. These kids go shooting because their dads want them to, not because it's something they're personally interested in doing.

[freejoytoo]

Wrong thread. Nothing to see here!

[FundiesInMyFamily]

I'd prefer them to get accurate information on rape risk.

Quoted for truth. I'd prefer they get real, accurate information (both girls and boys) about their bodies and their sexuality, good touch/bad touch, rape, physical and emotional abuse, ect.

[kolga]

Leaving aside the gun issue, I think instead of (or perhaps in addition to) teaching women how to use self-defense techniques, we also ought to increasingly teach boys and men to NOT RAPE. And teach them what that is. There's some research that shows that if you ask men if they've ever raped someone, they will all say no. But if you describe certain sexual activities that clearly include some elements of coercion or force, without using the word "rape," a significant percentage of the men will admit to those activities.

So, how about we approach the real problem, and teach men that rape isn't just strangers in dark alleys, but other things, too, and DON'T DO THAT.

[deelaem]

Referencing the above picture, when is rape not forcible? It's very essence is the exertion of domination for the purpose of trying to take away their power. I can't help but wonder if putting in the word forcible is a way of saying it's ok if some good ole boy just gets carried away and accidentally coerces a woman into sex. :roll: