"Today for the first time in my life I saw one" Muslim

[Cran]

It was actually dependent on the exact time (11th and 14th century were radically different in many aspects) and the order you were planning to enter. The established orders like Benedictines (OSB) would usually exact higher demands than orders that were founded as groups of reform, and/or to express new ideas or give them more weight, like the Franciscans did (focus on poverty).

[holothuroidea]

It was actually dependent on the exact time (11th and 14th century were radically different in many aspects) and the order you were planning to enter. The established orders like Benedictines (OSB) would usually exact higher demands than orders that were founded as groups of reform, and/or to express new ideas or give them more weight, like the Franciscans did (focus on poverty).

Depending on the woman's social class it may have been cheaper than a dowry for marriage. IIRC, if a wealthy/noble family had many daughters some of them would inevitably end up in the nunnery so the family could avoid spending many exorbitant wedding dowries to marry into other wealthy families.

Also, just a moment to note that the "women" in the middle ages we are talking about were much younger than what we would could consider the age of consent today. I don't know how much of a choice they were really able to make, even if they wanted to be a nun at the time.

[Hane]

A few years ago, I saw women in burqas for the first time. The two women, and their husbands, were staying in the same Cleveland hotel I was. The two guys were in typical Joe Sixpack sports gear--ball caps, jerseys, khaki cargo shorts, tube socks, and athletic shoes. They had shaggy mustaches and what would look like a beer gut on a non-Muslim. I recall having thought that esthetics would be better served if the guys were all covered up and their wives weren't. I also wish I'd been rude enough to look at the couples at dinner to see how the women managed to eat in full-on burqas.

[holothuroidea]

A few years ago, I saw women in burqas for the first time. The two women, and their husbands, were staying in the same Cleveland hotel I was. The two guys were in typical Joe Sixpack sports gear--ball caps, jerseys, khaki cargo shorts, tube socks, and athletic shoes. They had shaggy mustaches and what would look like a beer gut on a non-Muslim. I recall having thought that esthetics would be better served if the guys were all covered up and their wives weren't. I also wish I'd been rude enough to look at the couples at dinner to see how the women managed to eat in full-on burqas.

I don't think you can eat in a burqa, they're not designed for it. They are for covering yourself in public to go shopping and do things that don't require eating or drinking, AFAIK. The part that covers the face goes all the way down to the floor.

I have eaten with women who wear niqab, and they remove a pin in on the side of the scarf and move it to the side to take a bite or a drink, and replace the pin when they are done. Maybe the women were wearing niqab and not burqas?

ETA: I don't think it is rude to look or ask a reasonable question out of curiosity to someone of a different culture. Most of the Muslim women I've known are very nice people and don't mind answering questions from people who are genuinely curious and interested in their culture or the way they dress. The problem is that a lot of times the only thing people are interested in is criticism. There's a difference between, "Oh, it's very pretty but how do you eat?" and "How do you eat in that thing? It must be torture!"

[Hane]

I don't think you can eat in a burqa, they're not designed for it. They are for covering yourself in public to go shopping and do things that don't require eating or drinking, AFAIK. The part that covers the face goes all the way down to the floor.

I have eaten with women who wear niqab, and they remove a pin in on the side of the scarf and move it to the side to take a bite or a drink, and replace the pin when they are done. Maybe the women were wearing niqab and not burqas?

ETA: I don't think it is rude to look or ask a reasonable question out of curiosity to someone of a different culture. Most of the Muslim women I've known are very nice people and don't mind answering questions from people who are genuinely curious and interested in their culture or the way they dress. The problem is that a lot of times the only thing people are interested in is criticism. There's a difference between, "Oh, it's very pretty but how do you eat?" and "How do you eat in that thing? It must be torture!"

You know, holothuroidea, they may indeed have been niqab--they were made of solid black fabric, so it was hard to tell. They covered the women as much as a burqa would have--only their eyes were visible--but didn't seem to be a big single piece of fabric like the burqas I saw in the Afghani movie "Osama." (It was a heartbreaking film about a destitute family of women who decided to have their preteen daughter pass as a boy so she could get an education and help support them.)

At the school she attends, when she first gets her period, she is outed as female and sent to religious court. In a "merciful" ruling, she is sent to be a plural wife to one of the village leaders. I will never forget the closing of the movie, in which one of the elder wives bemoans their fate.

[emmiedahl]

I saw that movie and it made me cry. :( Sad movie.

[fluttershies]

I once saw a pair of young women in niqab walk down the street in London. One stumbled over a loose paving slab and yelled pretty loudly in a strong South London accent 'This pavement is BARE [slang for 'very'] dangerous!!' :lol:

Niqab or any other religious clothing has absolutely no bearing on how well one integrates into society or not.

[holothuroidea]

You know, holothuroidea, they may indeed have been niqab--they were made of solid black fabric, so it was hard to tell. They covered the women as much as a burqa would have--only their eyes were visible--but didn't seem to be a big single piece of fabric like the burqas I saw in the Afghani movie "Osama." (It was a heartbreaking film about a destitute family of women who decided to have their preteen daughter pass as a boy so she could get an education and help support them.)

At the school she attends, when she first gets her period, she is outed as female and sent to religious court. In a "merciful" ruling, she is sent to be a plural wife to one of the village leaders. I will never forget the closing of the movie, in which one of the elder wives bemoans their fate.

That sounds like the most common modest dress for Muslim women I see around here. All black, there is a robe, pants underneath, one scarf to cover the head, pinned to the hair behind the ears so as to cover the forehead, and one scarf to cover the face, pinned to the head scarf. Usually worn with sandals and anklets and bracelets. Some people also wear gloves. The women who I've asked just called the face covering a "niqab." I think there are a lot of different outfits for modest dress and different garments are customary for different regions. I didn't ask where these ladies were from because they were obviously native New Jerseyans based on their accents.

[holothuroidea]

I want to send all those crazy assholes at fisheaters (and also fundies everywhere) this video as a PSA.

[jenny_islander]

If I had a ton of money I would get the rights to something very chicken-fried, like "My Baby is American Made," and do a music video to it that starred a young woman wearing hijab while rocking out the USA. Possible shots: the standard "woman driving up on a big Harley in a helmet with face shield down" shot, followed by "woman taking off helmet and shaking out long straight hair in slo-mo," except that she's "shaking out" a long red white and blue headscarf. Woman putting up her profile on a Muslim meet-your-prospect site, clicking "American" for nationality (she would need to have a very "ethnic to parochial USians" name clearly displayed as well), and seeing hits pop up all over the map immediately. Freeclimbing up a rockface and admiring the view from the top. Working on said Harley or a classic T-bird. (Actually that would be a good opening shot: somebody in a blue coverall half-under a big hunk of sweet old Detroit rolling iron, groping around for a tool, pushing herself out on one of those little platforms to look for the tool and hey presto, hijabi!)

Then put it up on Youtube and watch right wing pundits go cuckoo.

[Boltingmadonna]

I used to be a Texas resident, and I used to be a Catholic. I'm glad to be neither now. This truly turned my stomach. Honestly, I don't agree with any kind of dress requirements for woman, whether it be "Tits or GTFO," burqa, or the Mary-Like Modesty Crusade. I think they're all in response to the irrational beliefs of MEN and if those went away, women could dress however the fuck we want to, just as men do now. However, I respect my fellow women and understand that if they cover, they do so for their own reasons and it is IN NO WAY an act of war against me or anyone else.

General Sherman said, "If I owned Hell and Texas, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell."

And I would totally throw bacon at quite a few priests I know (combining the bacon theme and the "I thought it was a penis" theme) but I don't think they are worthy of the Bacon Benediction.

[holothuroidea]

I used to be a Texas resident, and I used to be a Catholic. I'm glad to be neither now. This truly turned my stomach. Honestly, I don't agree with any kind of dress requirements for woman, whether it be "Tits or GTFO," burqa, or the Mary-Like Modesty Crusade. I think they're all in response to the irrational beliefs of MEN and if those went away, women could dress however the fuck we want to, just as men do now. However, I respect my fellow women and understand that if they cover, they do so for their own reasons and it is IN NO WAY an act of war against me or anyone else.

General Sherman said, "If I owned Hell and Texas, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell."

And I would totally throw bacon at quite a few priests I know (combining the bacon theme and the "I thought it was a penis" theme) but I don't think they are worthy of the Bacon Benediction.

Bacon Benediction!!! :lol: :lol:

If I meet Gen. Sherman in hell I'll be sure to give him a high-five. I was only in Texas for less than a day but I only needed to stay for a couple of minutes to know I'd never want to live there.

[Maul the Koala]

Depending on the woman's social class it may have been cheaper than a dowry for marriage. IIRC, if a wealthy/noble family had many daughters some of them would inevitably end up in the nunnery so the family could avoid spending many exorbitant wedding dowries to marry into other wealthy families.

Also, just a moment to note that the "women" in the middle ages we are talking about were much younger than what we would could consider the age of consent today. I don't know how much of a choice they were really able to make, even if they wanted to be a nun at the time.

I believe you had to be pledged really young. The concept of going into the religious life by choice is pretty recent. In my grandfather's family from the Reformation onwards, one son was always to be a pastor/preacher. There were no ifs ands or buts about it. If you were the only son, congratulations your life was selected already. At least it's a much different life than a cloistered nun but the particular son who was chosen had no choice over the situation. And this was well into the 20th century. The practice stopped with my great-grandfather i believe because of of immigration and his mother wasn't from the same cultural background. For the best anyway, my great grandfather was a solid atheist. I don't know about my great-great grandfather's brothers and sisters' descendants. It probably continued for a generation or so.