It's Feminism because I made the choice - long

[snarkykitty]

From the outside, my husband and I have pretty traditional gender roles, and sometimes, people (women) like to give ume their unsolicited opinions on that.

Part of the reason is because I no longer work outside the home due to illness. Now I have to say that I LOVED working and my husband was very supportive of my career). But I do most of the indoor housework, schedule service calls, etc., because I am the one who is home most of the time. I do have someone come in once a month or so to help the major cleaning (floors, bathrooms, dusting), because of certain limitation due to my health, but my domain is generally inside the home.

I also do most of the cooking because A. I have the time and B. I LOVE TO COOK. I especially love cooking for my husband (well, anyone, really). It makes me happy. I grew up in a big Italian family, and I learned how amazing it feels to cook for people I care about. It's about the time, the energy, the care I take in selecting ingredients and textures, the smile on someone's face when they take a bite and enjoy what I prepared for them.

My husband works 50+ hours a week and has a 45 minute commute each way. So it makes sense that I take care of certain things. He does all the outside work (lawn, pool, shoveling, etc.), the garbage, the harder "inside" work that requires height/strength/a ladder, the "icky" stuff (killing bugs, emptying curdled milk from the fridge), etc. He also does most of the driving because I sometimes have vision issues due to medications. Yes, sometimes after work, I'll grab him a beer or a snack. I'll send him to relax in the pool until dinner is done. I'll bring him hot chocolate when he shovels.

We have a pretty equal relationship. Neither one is more "in control" than the other. Even in each others' "regular" domains, we each have our specialties. He's good at organizing closets and drawers and the best way to use our space; I'm good at reading contracts/bills/paperwork/warranties. He's good at lawn/flower care; I'm a wiz at weeding. He makes incredible scrambled eggs; I make magic with chicken. We discuss major purchases before forking out any money - I'm good at finding bargains and know my way around appliances and he's good at managing savings and/or payment schedules. We brainstorm the best way to redecorate our living room. We trade off on things like picking the movie or dinner, who cleans the litter box. We encourage each other to be honest about how we feel about things that matter, instead of worrying about what the other person will think. We have the freedom to do things without each other - he likes to play darts, I like to get pedicures - and while we don't "ask permission", we both give each other the respect of checking in first.

However, I've had a few "friends" and relatives tell me that I "let" him control our lives too much. They refuse to see everything he does so I don't have to go out in the damp rain. He has a steady job, a great work ethic, and carries good insurance so that I can be as healthy as possible. He'll stay up half the night with me if I'm coughing my head off and can't sleep. He'll go to the store at 9pm to satisfy my ice cream craving or to make sure I have milk in the morning. He drives me to doctor appointments when he's able to amend his work schedule. Honestly, he treats me pretty damn well.

We're nowhere near perfect, but our ways work for us. We try to respect the other person, and that is something that these "naysayers" do not have in their relationships. A few have divorced, a few constantly complain about their husbands, and others do their best to make sure that everyone knows that they "wear the pants". I'm scolded for letting my husband "rule" our lives, but the way I see it, I've chosen to live this way, and you can't get anymore "feminist" than that.

I realize that my life isn't for everyone, and part of it is out of necessity. It's taking the lemons and tossing them out the window and making a chocolate shake instead. I do miss my outside job, the work I did, the paycheck, and the status, but life changes. My job now is very different. But it's not wrong simply because he makes the money and I make dinner.

I guess I just needed to vent. I don't really have to prove anything to anyone, but I just needed to say it. Because sometimes, what you see on the outside is not what is really going on inside.

[Bookworm]

Sounds like a cool relationship to me. Enjoy it and who cares about the scolders :)

[BlondeAgent007]

It sounds more to me like he caters to your needs, as a loving husband should. Your illness effected the way your life was, and both of you have made sacrifices for your health. He didn't force you to quit your job and write you a dinner menu. Sounds like a great guy supporting his wife, and a great woman who appreciates the support and is giving it back.

[Minerva]

Sorry people are judgy jerks. My partner and I have agreed that since he's going to school and working this summer whereas I'm only working, I'd take over the housework. I'm dreading my mom finding out, because she's halfway feminist, and unfortunately the half that's missing includes the part where you let consenting people live the way they choose. Still, we're only trying this for the summer, and you've been doing it for years. So kudos for putting up with that crap.

ETA your relationship sounds super egalitarian, too! People and their assumptions...

[InkyGirl]

It sounds like you have a great marriage! It actually sounds a lot like Mr. Inky and I. I tend to let him take the lead on most things, but it's not because "He's the head of the house" but because it's my personality. I'm not big on control and I am very laid back (and yes, sometimes lazy). I trust his judgement and he always informs me of big decisions and even little ones. When we had a car he did most of the driving because I hate driving and tend to have a lead foot. He works; I don't. That started out because when we first got married I was in school and then the economy sucked and now I am pregnant. We make it work. I do most of the cleaning because I am home and I pay more attention to what actually needs to be done, and well, I care a little more (but don't look in my house right now! :oops: ). I do most of the cooking, but since being pregnant he has picked that up more (I LOVE his waffles - yummy!) since I've had weird food aversions.

I trust his judgement but if I do feel that his choice may not be the best one I speak up. There was once event that I felt was going to be a bad move so I told him way, gave my reasoning, and he followed my choice and was glad of it.

Like you said - this was a choice, because it works for us. We give and take in our relationship and we are happy. It took awhile to find our roles and places and what works.

I think a lot of fundies what a formula for life and marriage - and formulas don't always work with people.

[pixydust]

My marriage is similar to yours (except I babysit my sister-in-laws demon spawn and clean my father-in-laws office one day a week). I do the most of the "homey" stuff, I'm better at it. My hubby works and has no problem spending an entire day off working on my very old Jeep, lifting the heavy stuff, and doing stuff that I'm not good at.

I'm a feminist, and this is my choice: to be a sorta-at-home, homeschooling mom. That is what feminism is, doing what is right for you. This is right for me. So don't let the haters get you down, you and your hubby sound like you have a good, loving, equal relationship!

[snarkykitty]

Thank you for the encouragement. I've always been a sensitive person and don't always know what to say when something someone says triggers an emotional response. Different people need to do different things to make their lives work. If I was healthy, I think that I would likely still be working in a career I loved, but had a handful of kids, and still wanted to do all the cooking! Just as long as I don't have to kill spiders. :pray:

[mnb357]

Good for you!!! Feminism is not some homogenous, static ideal. My mother was probaby the strongest feminist I knew, and she, with two degrees, was a SAHM, who never, ever, in my memory, ever opened her own car door. My father did it for her. There are more examples like this, but if pressed to say who had more "control" in my household when I was growing up, I, and my brothers, would have wondered what the heck you meant by control. They were a team.

I too am an educated, SAHM...have been a SAHM since my first child was born 20 years ago. I remember having a similar conversation as your post, with my mother, years ago. Basically, some of my college friends were "dissing" my choice to stay home, saying it was a waste of an education. Moreover, they claimed their husbands would be a little annoyed if they "wasted" their college educations, and wondered why my husband didn't feel that way. My mother's response: "Well, maybe they should have married someone better!" Granted, it was an elitist comment, meant to be taken in jest, but the point was clear.

[debrand]

Most of us know that there is a lot of pressure on women to be perfect but it seems like there is no way for women to win. If you work outside the home, you're horrible. If you remain home, you're horrible. No matter what you do, if you are a woman, you are going to be judged as being wrong.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

The side of feminism that's, well, more traditionally feminine too often gets lost, because the reactionaries have done such a good job of coopting the domestic space and painting an unflattering portrait of feminism.

I'm up there with you. I love to cook, sew my own clothes, do all the homesteading stuff and even dress by almost fundy-modest standards most of the time, (because I have a lot trouble keeping warm and I'm freezing when it's less than 80 degrees or so).

None of that matters, though, because feminism is not about what woman actually do, it's about what they have the option to do.

[JumpingtheSnark]

I think you have an awesome relationship, and I hope to come close to that some day. However, that's not what feminism is. Feminism isn't about choice; it's believing that women are equal to men and deserve every opportunity that men have be it in industry, property, civil rights, earnings, etc. It doesn't matter if you stay at home, go to church, wear a frumper, or worship the flying spaghetti monster.

Feminism=a baby girl should have every opportunity a baby boy gets.

[Terrasola]

Chronic illness adds a layer of complexity to life, a marriage, etc. that few understand unless they live it. In my personal experience, it is very difficult to negotiate new roles after having carved out a couple identity and it takes a lot of give and take on both sides, plus maturity, understanding, flexibility and a lot of other things that many couples don't possess in sufficient amounts. The divorce rate for couples facing chronic illness is said to be upwards of 75% so from one woman facing probable career ending chronic illness to another, my hat is off to Snarkykitty for adjusting so well and to both her and Mr. Snarkykitty for building such a strong relationship.

IMHO, Snarkykitty chose and developed her role based on abilities and preferences, within existing constraints. I think that this is the same choice a male with a chronic illness would have in a strong marriage. AFAIK, this meets the definition of feminism (equality for men and women).

Just imagine what the situation would be for a woman with a chronic illness that limited her functionality in a fundy marriage. I doubt her options would be the same or that her choices could be the same. After all, to fundies, a woman takes care of everything around the home. What happens when that woman cannot do so any longer?

[desertvixen]

Feminism isn't about choice; it's believing that women are equal to men and deserve every opportunity that men have be it in industry, property, civil rights, earnings, etc. It doesn't matter if you stay at home, go to church, wear a frumper, or worship the flying spaghetti monster.

I would disagree that feminism isn't about choice. It is about equal opportunities for women, but I think we also have to recognize that there are parts of our society where it isn't just enough to give women the equal, sucky reality - we need to work so that some of the structures of society that were built around men being out in the workplace/women being in the home get overhauled so they don't suck. Examples would include better childcare availability/cost/quality (also the recognition that childcare is an issue for society, not for every single woman who works to find a solution for on her own), better family/parental leave policies, maternity benefits/paternity benefits (but I definitely agree that maternity benefits need to come first, because we've waited too damn long).

I do think that women who choose to stay home because it is the best fit for their situation shouldn't be told they're being unfeminist, or betraying the cause, or whatever BS line people come up with. The problem comes when people want to exercise their choice AND take away everyone else's - paging Phyllis Schlafly, Sarah Palin, and so forth...

[Avalondaughter]

Your home situation sounds a lot like mine. I do work, but I don't work the long hours my DH does and he makes way more money. I do all of the housework and the cooking and shopping (and I love cooking). I realize that I'm not very much like the powerful, influential women I most admire.

I'm okay with that. I realize as long as I support and encourage (in the non-fundie way) the women who want more, vote in ways that I hope will keep them able to pursue their dreams, and stand up for what I believe in, then I'm still a feminist!

[changemanagement]

Your relationship works for you. Tune out the nattering naysayers. They are not a part of your relationship. You may want to tell them it's none of their business in a way that works for you. Let them know it is not up for discussion.

I know it sounds corny, but that was my take-away at the mandatory Episcopalian "talks" with the minister prior to my wedding, almost 25 years ago. So it's my and husband, not me husband and his mother or his sisters, or my cousin....not that they didn't try :roll:

[snarkykitty]

Your relationship works for you. Tune out the nattering naysayers. They are not a part of your relationship. You may want to tell them it's none of their business in a way that works for you. Let them know it is not up for discussion.

I know it sounds corny, but that was my take-away at the mandatory Episcopalian "talks" with the minister prior to my wedding, almost 25 years ago. So it's my and husband, not me husband and his mother or his sisters, or my cousin....not that they didn't try :roll:

The priest who carried out our PreCana (premarriage) counseling (I'm Catholic and we got married in the Catholic Church) had similar to say. He had amazing insight and gave us guidance in all areas, including the fact that we weren't going to be able to have children - even by adoption. Those of you who are familiar with the Catholic Church's stance on reproductive issues might be surprised at the amount of support our priest gave us.

And I do think that having options in my life (and a husband who sees us as partners) is thanks to the Feminist movement. Even sixty years ago in mainstream America, and in present day fundamental circles we read about here, a woman with a chronic disease might still be expected to have/raise children, do everything related to running a home, putting her husband's preferences/needs/desires first, etc.

Not that it matters, because labels are transitory and relative at best, but I experience conflict from other women who think that the way I live my life is antithetical to the extreme end of the feminist spectrum.

[margiebargie]

Most of us know that there is a lot of pressure on women to be perfect but it seems like there is no way for women to win. If you work outside the home, you're horrible. If you remain home, you're horrible. No matter what you do, if you are a woman, you are going to be judged as being wrong.

Yeah. If you were out in the workforce someone would be giving you shit about that. Constant criticism is just a fact of life. Treat it like the inconsequential background noise that it is. Sounds like you're doing just that, and good for you.

I, personally, am very grateful for feminism. I wouldn't be where I am today without it. I'd have made a piss poor housewife, so feminism did my husband a giant favor, too. I can actually do what I like and what I'm good at!!! ;)

[emmiedahl]

The feminists in my life are pretty cool with my life decisions. I think we are moving into a space as a movement where we are not so forced into the role of revolutionary. There are still people stuck in that mindset that we need to be fighting and forcing our way into the public sphere, but they tend to be older feminists in my experience. I know Gloria Steinem wrote something a few years ago stating that the feminist movement is losing ground because of the renewed popularity of SAHM's, but I don't agree. As long as the SAHM's are voting feminist, we cannot possibly lose ground. It's when we stop caring or stop voting that people can take away our rights. (granted, this is happening, but I still feel it is more because of voting behavior than life choices)

The people who seem to feel I am not a "real" feminist are mainly conservative fundie-lites.

[No Fun My Babe]

Sounds like you have a great relationship!

Chronic illness sucks. I don't have a partner, more like a SAHD now, but I understand how hurtful people's misguided perceptions can be. Be as well as you can be and remember that you know who you are, your partner knows who you are, and fuck the rest. :)

Most of us know that there is a lot of pressure on women to be perfect but it seems like there is no way for women to win. If you work outside the home, you're horrible. If you remain home, you're horrible. No matter what you do, if you are a woman, you are going to be judged as being wrong.

So true. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Austin]

I would disagree that feminism isn't about choice. It is about equal opportunities for women, but I think we also have to recognize that there are parts of our society where it isn't just enough to give women the equal, sucky reality - we need to work so that some of the structures of society that were built around men being out in the workplace/women being in the home get overhauled so they don't suck. Examples would include better childcare availability/cost/quality (also the recognition that childcare is an issue for society, not for every single woman who works to find a solution for on her own), better family/parental leave policies, maternity benefits/paternity benefits (but I definitely agree that maternity benefits need to come first, because we've waited too damn long).

I do think that women who choose to stay home because it is the best fit for their situation shouldn't be told they're being unfeminist, or betraying the cause, or whatever BS line people come up with. The problem comes when people want to exercise their choice AND take away everyone else's - paging Phyllis Schlafly, Sarah Palin, and so forth...

I agree that feminism IS about choice. It means I have the choice to live my life and make the choices that work for me and the people that I love. It's about the choice I have to define those relationships in a way that seems right for me, which occasionally includes traditional roles in my marriage that are MY choice.

In the past, women have not had choice, which is a huge part of what put them in an unequal position compared to men.

Beyond feminism being the radical notion that women are fully human and fully equal, choice is the next thing that comes to mind. Without choice and the ability to self-determine, there is no equality.

[deelaem]

I agree that feminism IS about choice. It means I have the choice to live my life and make the choices that work for me and the people that I love. It's about the choice I have to define those relationships in a way that seems right for me, which occasionally includes traditional roles in my marriage that are MY choice.

In the past, women have not had choice, which is a huge part of what put them in an unequal position compared to men.

Beyond feminism being the radical notion that women are fully human and fully equal, choice is the next thing that comes to mind. Without choice and the ability to self-determine, there is no equality.

But do women truly have free choice and the ability to self-determine? I mean, we all have to play the femininity game to a certain extent in order to fit into our patriarchal society, at least to the degree we feel comfortable with.

To me, feminism is about questioning the very foundation that the patriarchy is built on. It's about women realizing the extent to which they are forced to conform to patriarchal standards, or risk rejection by men. It's about instead of caring about being rejected by men, we reject the very notion that we need their approval to pursue life on our own terms. It's also about exploring sexuality outside of the domination/submission paradigm.

[fundiefan2012]

deelaim, love the icon. :D

:quote: Beyond feminism being the radical notion that women are fully human and fully equal, choice is the next thing that comes to mind. Without choice and the ability to self-determine, there is no equality.:/quote:

I disagree that we all have to play the game. As a single mom of three, I refuse to, as someone (I forget who!) said in another thread, "be legally bound to someone with a penis."

[Austin]

But do women truly have free choice and the ability to self-determine? I mean, we all have to play the femininity game to a certain extent in order to fit into our patriarchal society, at least to the degree we feel comfortable with.

To me, feminism is about questioning the very foundation that the patriarchy is built on. It's about women realizing the extent to which they are forced to conform to patriarchal standards, or risk rejection by men. It's about instead of caring about being rejected by men, we reject the very notion that we need their approval to pursue life on our own terms. It's also about exploring sexuality outside of the domination/submission paradigm.

Although we fight against it, I don't see any end to the patriarchy, at least in my lifetime. Patriarchy is ubiquitous, all around us like air. Does it or has it in the past informed my decisions? Of course. All I can do is to push back in the ways that I know how, to challenge the status quo in ways that make sense to me, and to continue to challenge myself.

We are living in an age where the rights we thought the second wave feminists had secured for us are under fire, so we must engage that battle once again instead of being able to move forward unfettered to take on new challenges.

The major life decisions I have made have been what I wanted. Did I make them in a vacuum? Of course not; they were made in a society totally dominated by patriarchy and I have no reason to deny that. But they were what I wanted/want, and given the same sets of circumstances, I would go back and make those decisions all over again. I don't know how to separate out myself or any woman and our decisions from the behemoth we call "the patriarchy". All I can do is parse out what I am able to and take up whatever battles I need to.

[deelaem]

Although we fight against it, I don't see any end to the patriarchy, at least in my lifetime. Patriarchy is ubiquitous, all around us like air. Does it or has it in the past informed my decisions? Of course. All I can do is to push back in the ways that I know how, to challenge the status quo in ways that make sense to me, and to continue to challenge myself.

We are living in an age where the rights we thought the second wave feminists had secured for us are under fire, so we must engage that battle once again instead of being able to move forward unfettered to take on new challenges.

The major life decisions I have made have been what I wanted. Did I make them in a vacuum? Of course not; they were made in a society totally dominated by patriarchy and I have no reason to deny that. But they were what I wanted/want, and given the same sets of circumstances, I would go back and make those decisions all over again. I don't know how to separate out myself or any woman and our decisions from the behemoth we call "the patriarchy". All I can do is parse out what I am able to and take up whatever battles I need to.

Very well said, my friend. As always. :D

[deelaem]

deelaim, love the icon. :D

:quote: Beyond feminism being the radical notion that women are fully human and fully equal, choice is the next thing that comes to mind. Without choice and the ability to self-determine, there is no equality.:/quote:

I disagree that we all have to play the game. As a single mom of three, I refuse to, as someone (I forget who!) said in another thread, "be legally bound to someone with a penis."

Yes, but how we conduct ourselves in society is still dictated by the patriarchy. Even single women worry about their looks, weight, mothering abilities and career options to a much greater extent than men do. Without even thinking about it, we still have a tendency to defer to men in social situations. I wish it were different, but as Austin pointed out, the revolution is generations away, if it comes at all.

My current act of rebellion is to refuse to get out of a man's way when I'm walking through a store, etc. I was amazed at how strong my instinct was to move my cart out a man's way, for instance. Now I refuse to do it, and instead take gleeful delight at the incredulous looks on their faces when I refuse to yield.