Your Worship Service Might Be Effeminate If...

[Olive Plant]

http://www.dougwils.com/Liturgical-Notes/your-worship-service-might-be-effeminate-if.html

Apparently Doug Wilson has jumped on the limp-wristed-churches-are-bad bandwagon and written a list of how your church might be effeminate. Among them are bizarre theoreticals like

"Your music minister is more concerned that the choir trills their r's correctly than that they fill the sanctuary with loud sounds of battle,"

Which insinuates that worship is supposed to sound like war, though maybe this is his poorly-expressed way of saying that we're supposed to be singing songs like "Onward, Christian soldiers." This is after Wilson states that "To emphasize masculinity in worship is not a practice that excludes women. Rather, it includes them, brings them along, and makes them feel safe." Essentially, then, he's arguing that having warlike sounds (whatever that's supposed to entail) in church should make women feel "safe." Not only that, but if you DON'T have warlike sounds in church, women won't feel safe? Is that the logic?

See also, "The minister wears a robe, but the effect is not that of being robed for battle." Seriously, I have never seen ANY pastor dressed in a robe that made him look like he was "robed for battle," and if he did (I'm thinking some guy in plate armour), he'd look like a freak show. That includes Wilson. I've been to his church all of one time, years ago, but the effect was not even close to a warrior being robed for battle. He looked like a fat man in a sweater-vest. I think he wore a sweater-vest. I can't be sure, because his clothes were far from memorable.

Wilson closes it out with "This list is printed out and handed around at your church, and at least three people are mortally offended." What if they just laugh, Wilson? What if they recognize that you're pulling shit out of your ass, and your attempt to be half-funny, half-controversial is nothing more than some regurgitated chest-puffing? Saying you're manly doesn't make you manly.

Claiming you look like a warrior-poet in your kilt doesn't make you Braveheart, either.

[Lady]

I'm pretty sure he'd have a stroke at my church, the pastor is an openly gay man who makes musical theatre references in his sermons.

[fundifugee]

He certainly doesn't look kitted out for battle

In fact yes, he is wearing a sweater-vest. How very manly and fierce.

Not to mention that being in a building with a music "ministry" that aims to make "loud sounds of battle" would be decidedly unpleasant.

[ladypuglover]

I'm pretty sure he'd have a stroke at my church, the pastor is an openly gay man who makes musical theatre references in his sermons.

Our last pastor always added golf stories. He was a simi-pro golfer before getting saved.

[Shina]

I'm pretty sure he'd have a stroke at my church, the pastor is an openly gay man who makes musical theatre references in his sermons.

I want to go to your church.

[crassy]

This list is printed out and handed around at your church, and at least three people are mortally offended.

MORTALLY offended. Jesus fucking christ...does this idiot even know what words mean?

[kpmom]

MORTALLY offended. Jesus fucking christ...does this idiot even know what words mean?

They were so offended they died? Wow, that's really, really offended.

[Arete]

Oh, I can top you guys. Our priest wears long gold, red, lime green, or silver brocade robes depending on the church calendar. He and the sanctuary also are tricked out in some very fine gold, silver, and the occasional precious gems. Our current choir is mostly women with a female director and only 3-4 men who have to take direction from her. I know, we do so love emasculating our men. The only "battle cry" is when a cranky toddler starts to howl. Did I mention that some of our priests have hair so long they wear them in ponytails? :naughty:

[Terrasola]

Sounds of battle indeed (snorts of laughter) ... When I was growing up and attending the United Church of Canada one of our congregation, a pillar of the community and all around manly man, had the most awesome falsetto and with him in the pew on Sundays we sang some rocking hymns. I don't think we struck fear in anyone's heart.

[darareaksmey]

"Your music minister is more concerned that the choir trills their r's correctly than that they fill the sanctuary with loud sounds of battle,"

Actually, our choir director is mightily concerned that the choir pronounce as few of the r's as possible. When you sing, you sing "Laud" instead of "Lord," otherwise it would come out sounding like the Beverly Hillbillies. Or at least that's what she says.

I guess it goes without saying that a congregation having a woman in the pulpit may as well just dissolve itself.

[debrand]

How do you have a masculine worship service? Doug Wilson would not approve of the Old Testament temple that Solomon designed. 1 Kings chapter 6 and 7 describe the inner sanctuary as being covered with gold. Even the floor was covered with gold. In the third chapter of 2 Chronicles, it states that Solomon had two huge winged creatures covered with gold built to put in the Holy of Holies

That is not a particularly manly temple. It is decorative and even gaudy.The priests were not trying to create a warlike environment when they wore their special robes. They were showing awe and reverence to their god.

Perhaps the ancient Hebrews, who sound very warlike, didn't worry about being thought less masculine because they had statuary or decoration in their buildings. They made their temple to show reverence for their god, not to prove their masculinity.

It surprises me that so many of the men we cover are sensitive about being seen as manly and yet would run screaming if they were actually conscripted into battle.

[JesusFightClub]

What a stupid bastard.

First of all you can't wear a kilt in a manly way as opposed to an effeminate way. You are just wearing a kilt. It's like saying a man can wear trousers in an effeminate way, I don't get the concept. Grown women don't wear kilts anyhow. And why are random

Americans wanting to wear a kilt? I have no objection if they do, mind, but I am confused.

Secondly, what the living FUCK are this choir doing to make "sounds of battle"? Does he know what battle sounds like? Screaming, firing, sounds of utter confusion.

I wish twats like him would stop using the battle metaphor.

[Artemis]

Sounds of battle: the cries and agonised whimpers of dying men, the sounds of pain and anguish.

Does he want the sights as well? The broken bleeding bodies, the shattered limbs, the blood and guts?

And the Levites wore ROBES - you know, dresses!

What sort of world is he living in?

[DistantStar]

I would pay good money to see my priest in a kilt. Just sayin'.

My choir director also tries to get us off the rs, though not entirely. He's also big on "ah-leh-lu-yah" as opposed to "a-LAY-luh-yah."

This sort of thing is from another universe than my church -- so far all I can do is shake my head and laugh.

[apple1]

Actually, our choir director is mightily concerned that the choir pronounce as few of the r's as possible. When you sing, you sing "Laud" instead of "Lord," otherwise it would come out sounding like the Beverly Hillbillies. Or at least that's what she says.

Off topic, I know. In reality, "Laud" comes off sounding pretentious IMVHO. But the director IS running the show... (Musician here...)

[Boltingmadonna]

Nothing says "I'm anxious about the size of my penis" like introducing military metaphors into every damn thing you do. And what is this "robed for battle" nonsense? Does he know that the Greeks ran into battle totally nude? So did my ancient woad-stained ancestors.

Okay, before posting, I googled a bit, and discovered this nude battle thing may be a bit of a myth, based more on artistic convention than fact. Nevertheless, it is true that the mighty Greek warriors wore no pants. My googling also revealed this charming tidbit which I pass on to you: in modern Liberia, there was a commander who later became a preacher. He did run naked into battle, and thus gained the wondrously manly name of "General Butt Naked." I wonder if Doug Wilson will preach about him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Blahyi

[saraelise]

Wearing robes during battle would be so dangerous. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

[GeoBQn]

When I think of a choir making "sounds of battle," it just makes me think of this song:

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Which was later remade as this song, with a . . . very different idea of masculine imagery.

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[Swamptribe]

Love Adam Ant. He put on a hell of a concert too. Often wonder if Johnny Depp didn't steal some of his Jack Sparrow style from Adam Ant.

some people have a weird idea of what masculine and feminine are.

[Hisey]

The Bayly brothers are writing about the same thing!

http://www.baylyblog.com/2012/04/clearn ... l#comments

So many fierce fundie men who want to sing tough, mean songs. . .

[uncreative]

So, worship is supposed to be masculine. Women are forbidden from acting like men. Ergo, women are not allowed to participate in worship services? Using basic logic, that seems to be what this whackadoodle is saying.

[mnb357]

I guess pregnant priests would be enough to keep this clown out of the Episocpalian church.

[Swamptribe]

I guess pregnant priests would be enough to keep this clown out of the Episocpalian church.

Pregnant lesbian priests might give him a stroke.

[tankgirl]

What a stupid bastard.

First of all you can't wear a kilt in a manly way as opposed to an effeminate way. You are just wearing a kilt. It's like saying a man can wear trousers in an effeminate way, I don't get the concept. Grown women don't wear kilts anyhow. And why are random

Americans wanting to wear a kilt? I have no objection if they do, mind, but I am confused.

Secondly, what the living FUCK are this choir doing to make "sounds of battle"? Does he know what battle sounds like? Screaming, firing, sounds of utter confusion.

I wish twats like him would stop using the battle metaphor.

In my social group it is super common for American guys to wear kilts. Only one was born in Scotland, but raised mostly in the states, some have parents from Scotland, but most are renactors, who found major comfort in wearing a kilt so they wear them. Also many women like their guys in kilts. But saying all that outside of Highland Games, most guys I know wear the new school American style kilts like those made famous by Utili-kilts, and not so much anything made with a tartan. Most all of the guys don't wear them for any hertitage ties, and wear them more for comfort and style.

Also a few women in the states wear kilts, but most are just skirts with a "kilt look", though I have one friend who considers herself "butch" who likes a Utili-kilt sometimes.

I have seen the kilt thing come up a few times, so thought I would answer the question :)

Other then that he is a sweater vest wearing idiot.

[anniebgood]

I guess discussing the San Francisco Giants in a sermon is a mono too. Our pastor wears an alb with a stole in the proper liturgical color. He wears jeans under his robes and has a sweatshirt with a collar that he wears when visiting.

He's one of the best preachers I've ever heard and the only reason I am staying at this church.

We don't have a choir anymore but when we did we had a wonderful woman director and a large mens section that actually listened to her. Didn't do war chants but we could sing in 3 languages and be understood.