Modesty lecture in Hasidic Jewish school

[ilovetchotchkes]

There's a lot of apologism attached to that prayer/blessing. If men are glad for being made men, why not just have men say "thank you for making me male" and women can say "thank you for making me female"?

Well, you see, to presume that one is a perfect "man" or "woman" would be arrogant. So the men say something they are certain is true (that they're not women), while women thank God for making them "according to his will" (which is, according to Orthodoxy, true for all of us)...and that covers it. Also, the men are supposedly thanking God for giving them more commandments to perform than women are given...and this is said in the same breath as "Orthodox Judaism recognizes that women are on a higher spiritual level than men are", which is never posited as a justification for women to start thanking God that they are not male . The inconsistencies make my head spin!

Mine too. Which is why I'm a very very happy Reform Jew. :) I love seein' women on the bima.

[emmiedahl]

My impression is that they are thankful to be men because of the additional religious burden that men hold in Orthodox Judaism. So they are being taught to be thankful for their trials, I guess?

I don't know why fundies of all cultures have not adopted the style of dress seen in many non-Western nations, of a long tunic over baggy pants. Very comfortable! The one I have from Central Asia has a very loose, embroidered tunic that reaches midway between my knees and ankles, and the pants are so big (with a comfy drawstring waist) that I can wear them through entire pregnancies. The tunic/kameez is loose but cut in such a way that it does not really flap around or up, so it is easy to wear while doing shit. It is just a cheap one that I wear around the house, but they make gorgeous salwar kameez sets for women who want to wear them in public.

[pixydust]

So, if God makes it windy enough to show your knees, it's your fault? Ok.

(off topic-one time i was wearing a skirt under an abaya and was walking in the wind. I ended up with a Marylin Monroe moment (skirt/abaya blew up to my waist) and to make things even better, my niqab flew up into my eyes so I couldn't see to fix the lower half of my body. I was embarassed beyond belief, but I figure God's the one in charge of the wind, He knew what would happen. Why can't more fundies think like that?)

Oh, that must have been embarrassing! One of those "What the hell do I grab first?!?" moments. I like your attitude towards it, you're right, fundies should have more of that kind of attitude! But you are an evil Muslim, so what do you know? (j/k)

[RR88]

But you are an evil Muslim, so what do you know? (j/k)

:lol:

As a side note (and this is addressed to Sunnichick31, as well as anyone else who knows about the subject): From what I understand, niqab is not typically worn by Shi'a (at least in the West), and I live near Dearborn (which, as I'm sure you know, has a huge Shi'a population). My Muslim friends are a mixture of Sunni and Shi'a...Some of them wear 7ijab very strictly (with an umtah and not a single strand of hair showing, as well as an 3abaya), while others are more lenient, and still others do not cover their heads in the first place. (My male Muslim friends also run the gamut of religious observance.) In my six years attending a university with a large Muslim population, I think I have seen niqab on campus two or three times. I have read about niqab being "a Sunni phenomenon", and was wondering if you knew why that is (without getting into Shi'a-Sunni conflicts). Is it true that Mu7ammad's wives were said to have covered their faces?

(Sorry for hijacking!)

[saraelise]

I'm considering a Jewish conversion, althought the only Jewish community in my country is Orthodox. They say they're inclusive, but I'm not sure what that means in regards to converts. I agree that there are many issues with Orthodoxy, even when you're just skimming the surface, so that's stressing me out a little bit.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

There's a lot of apologism attached to that prayer/blessing. If men are glad for being made men, why not just have men say "thank you for making me male" and women can say "thank you for making me female"?

Well, you see, to presume that one is a perfect "man" or "woman" would be arrogant. So the men say something they are certain is true (that they're not women), while women thank God for making them "according to his will" (which is, according to Orthodoxy, true for all of us)...and that covers it. Also, the men are supposedly thanking God for giving them more commandments to perform than women are given...and this is said in the same breath as "Orthodox Judaism recognizes that women are on a higher spiritual level than men are", which is never posited as a justification for women to start thanking God that they are not male . The inconsistencies make my head spin!

Seriously. I'm just a lurking heathen looking in from the outside, but the spinning apologetics just amaze me (it's fascinating in its own right, I guess). People seem to 100% sincerely argue it though, and act as if they don't notice anything amiss (particularly on BT sites).

But just for mere starters, even if you accept that okay, women are more spiritual and so don't need to learn, why should they not be PERMITTED (just not required) to do it? Ah but then it becomes a requirement and there's no time for the baybeez...

In the US it seems all sorts of fundies use some version of "oh but women are BETTER than men" as a justification for forbidding all sorts of behavior. "Women are better than men, so men must protect women, and put them on a pedestal, how dare you complain about us HONORING you by not letting you get your little hands dirty?"

Never mind that this "honoring" leads to dependence and anyone can see it a mile away (at least the chivalrous "no hard labor for you" thing - the "right-wing" Jewish school version at least in the modern US and Israel arguably gives more relevant education to girls, which interesting in comparison).

[B5SnowDog]

When I was in college, I became friendly with a young woman who always wore floor-length skirts and didn't cut her hair. She explained she wore long skirts because her church emphasized modesty and taught that women needed to dress in a way that didn't cause men to sin. One night the class was on the roof in order to observe Saturn through a telescope. When she leaned down to look through the eyepiece, one of the jackass guys made a comment about her butt. She was visibly upset and when I asked what was wrong, she told me what happened. I told her it wasn't her fault at all and that men who would make those comments would do so regardless of what she's wearing. I hope she believed me. :-(

[RR88]

Yeah, well, many BTs are outright lied to about the religion. Quite a few have been indoctrinated by organizations like Aish HaTorah.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Yeah, well, many BTs are outright lied to about the religion. Quite a few have been indoctrinated by organizations like Aish HaTorah.

Exactly...

[Cannelle]

I wore a long skirt to school the other day (I'm a student, not a teacher!). I often wear long skirts when it's warm out, because my legs are really long, and shorts on me look almost scandalous. (Not that that bothers me, lol, but still, I don't feel very professional with so much of my body exposed. Unfortunately, it was really windy, and my skirt kept flying up and exposing me, and my first thought was, "How the eff is this supposed to be more modest?"

I had to grip onto both sides of my skirt the whole way. Totally ridiculous. I hate wind.

[mockingbird]

I wore a long skirt to school the other day (I'm a student, not a teacher!). I often wear long skirts when it's warm out, because my legs are really long, and shorts on me look almost scandalous. (Not that that bothers me, lol, but still, I don't feel very professional with so much of my body exposed. Unfortunately, it was really windy, and my skirt kept flying up and exposing me, and my first thought was, "How the eff is this supposed to be more modest?"

I had to grip onto both sides of my skirt the whole way. Totally ridiculous. I hate wind.

I like to wear skirts and dresses too, but our campus is so windy that I often question why I even bother. Even my short shorts are probably more modest if I don't catch a skirt/dress in time, lol.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Seriously. I'm just a lurking heathen looking in from the outside, but the spinning apologetics just amaze me (it's fascinating in its own right, I guess). People seem to 100% sincerely argue it though, and act as if they don't notice anything amiss (particularly on BT sites).

But just for mere starters, even if you accept that okay, women are more spiritual and so don't need to learn, why should they not be PERMITTED (just not required) to do it? Ah but then it becomes a requirement and there's no time for the baybeez...

In the US it seems all sorts of fundies use some version of "oh but women are BETTER than men" as a justification for forbidding all sorts of behavior. "Women are better than men, so men must protect women, and put them on a pedestal, how dare you complain about us HONORING you by not letting you get your little hands dirty?"

Never mind that this "honoring" leads to dependence and anyone can see it a mile away (at least the chivalrous "no hard labor for you" thing - the "right-wing" Jewish school version at least in the modern US and Israel arguably gives more relevant education to girls, which interesting in comparison).

The prayer is part of a longer series of prayers. Some of those prayers involve thanking G-d for obviously good stuff (not dying in your sleep, having sight, having the ability to go to the washroom, etc.), and then there are a few prayers that follow the formula "Blessed be G-d...who has not made me [insert category of people with fewer religious obligations]". Intellectually, I understand that this prayer follows the formula, and that it is intented to refer to mandatory religious obligations as opposed to a general "yay it's awesome to have a penis". At the same time, part of me wants to choke when I hear it.

I believe that there is room to re-evaluate this prayer within the framework of Jewish law. It's already happening on the fringes of left-wing Modern Orthodoxy, in the Open Orthodoxy camp (see http://morethodoxy.org/2011/08/08/a-cla ... -kanefsky/). There is a history in Judaism of rewriting liturgy and even parts of the Talmud in response to certain outside factors. I think the argument can easily be made that today, people don't hear the "shelo asani isha" (in English, "who has not made me a woman") prayer and automatically think of just the more benign explanation, and that it's existence is actively promoting the impression that Orthodox Judaism is sexist and is driving people away. Unfortunately, I also see a trend within the Orthodox world to make this into a political issue - it seems these days that the rest of the Orthodox world sometimes feels compelled to oppose Open Orthodoxy without any actual consideration of the arguments made.

I wouldn't mind the "women are naturally more spiritual" argument that much, if I had a sense that it was used consistently even within yeshivas, and not just trotted out to placate women and/or the newly religious. In other words - what would it look like if the principle that woman are naturally more spiritual and attuned to G-d was actually applied to every scenario? Wouldn't the religious input of women be more welcome, and wouldn't it seem like complete chutzpah for a man to dictate anything religious to a woman?

[RR88]

The prayer is part of a longer series of prayers. Some of those prayers involve thanking G-d for obviously good stuff (not dying in your sleep, having sight, having the ability to go to the washroom, etc.), and then there are a few prayers that follow the formula "Blessed be G-d...who has not made me [insert category of people with fewer religious obligations]". Intellectually, I understand that this prayer follows the formula, and that it is intented to refer to mandatory religious obligations as opposed to a general "yay it's awesome to have a penis". At the same time, part of me wants to choke when I hear it.

I believe that there is room to re-evaluate this prayer within the framework of Jewish law. It's already happening on the fringes of left-wing Modern Orthodoxy, in the Open Orthodoxy camp (see http://morethodoxy.org/2011/08/08/a-cla ... -kanefsky/). There is a history in Judaism of rewriting liturgy and even parts of the Talmud in response to certain outside factors. I think the argument can easily be made that today, people don't hear the "shelo asani isha" (in English, "who has not made me a woman") prayer and automatically think of just the more benign explanation, and that it's existence is actively promoting the impression that Orthodox Judaism is sexist and is driving people away. Unfortunately, I also see a trend within the Orthodox world to make this into a political issue - it seems these days that the rest of the Orthodox world sometimes feels compelled to oppose Open Orthodoxy without any actual consideration of the arguments made.

I wouldn't mind the "women are naturally more spiritual" argument that much, if I had a sense that it was used consistently even within yeshivas, and not just trotted out to placate women and/or the newly religious. In other words - what would it look like if the principle that woman are naturally more spiritual and attuned to G-d was actually applied to every scenario? Wouldn't the religious input of women be more welcome, and wouldn't it seem like complete chutzpah for a man to dictate anything religious to a woman?

Your last paragraph especially resonates with me.

[ilovetchotchkes]

The prayer is part of a longer series of prayers. Some of those prayers involve thanking G-d for obviously good stuff (not dying in your sleep, having sight, having the ability to go to the washroom, etc.), and then there are a few prayers that follow the formula "Blessed be G-d...who has not made me [insert category of people with fewer religious obligations]". Intellectually, I understand that this prayer follows the formula, and that it is intented to refer to mandatory religious obligations as opposed to a general "yay it's awesome to have a penis". At the same time, part of me wants to choke when I hear it.

I believe that there is room to re-evaluate this prayer within the framework of Jewish law. It's already happening on the fringes of left-wing Modern Orthodoxy, in the Open Orthodoxy camp (see http://morethodoxy.org/2011/08/08/a-cla ... -kanefsky/). There is a history in Judaism of rewriting liturgy and even parts of the Talmud in response to certain outside factors. I think the argument can easily be made that today, people don't hear the "shelo asani isha" (in English, "who has not made me a woman") prayer and automatically think of just the more benign explanation, and that it's existence is actively promoting the impression that Orthodox Judaism is sexist and is driving people away. Unfortunately, I also see a trend within the Orthodox world to make this into a political issue - it seems these days that the rest of the Orthodox world sometimes feels compelled to oppose Open Orthodoxy without any actual consideration of the arguments made.

I wouldn't mind the "women are naturally more spiritual" argument that much, if I had a sense that it was used consistently even within yeshivas, and not just trotted out to placate women and/or the newly religious. In other words - what would it look like if the principle that woman are naturally more spiritual and attuned to G-d was actually applied to every scenario? Wouldn't the religious input of women be more welcome, and wouldn't it seem like complete chutzpah for a man to dictate anything religious to a woman?

QFT.

[2xx1xy1JD]

In religious Jewish circles, I suspect that part of the reason that girls are not more encouraged to pursue optional religious activities such as prayers 3 times/day or advanced study of Talmud is that the system relies on their labor - not just with the children, but with everything in the secular world.

In some ways, there is arguably less financial dependence of women on men in some ultra-Orthodox Jewish circles. Instead, you get the Orthodox Superwomen Syndrome - the woman who is supposed to be able to get married young, have lots of babies, and somehow manage to find a job that allows her to support the family while making sure that they aren't neglected. In most cases, girls end up with a secular education that is at least as good, and often better, than that of the boys. There's not that much history of women not working - 100 years ago, the Lower East Side was filled with Jewish girls and women working in sweatshops, for example. OTOH, you do get a degree of financial dependence on the community. Those who marry young are often dependent on parents, and the community provides subsidies to families in need.

[galaxygirl]

Doesn't Queen Elizabeth(or one of the other European Queens) put small weights in her dresses and skirts to prevent them from getting blown up when it's windy out? Sounds a lot less painful than sticking pins in your leg.

[Coconut Flan]

When I was a child my grandmother put weights in the hems of some dresses to "make them hang right." In retrospect, to keep them down is probably more rational.

[saraelise]

People used to put weights in their gowns when crinolines (that very easily blew up and were hard to get down) and similar garments were popular, so I believe you.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Doesn't Queen Elizabeth(or one of the other European Queens) put small weights in her dresses and skirts to prevent them from getting blown up when it's windy out? Sounds a lot less painful than sticking pins in your leg.

Well back in the day when you wore cage crinolines (1860s) you'd have a "modesty" petticoat to prevent anyone from seeing your legs. They're necessary. Trust. me. :shock:

[skinch]

Doesn't Queen Elizabeth(or one of the other European Queens) put small weights in her dresses and skirts to prevent them from getting blown up when it's windy out? Sounds a lot less painful than sticking pins in your leg.

I just read this the other day:

Her Maj's Modesty

I kind of wish I hadn't just linked to the Daily Wail though.......

[HijabiLady]

:lol:

As a side note (and this is addressed to Sunnichick31, as well as anyone else who knows about the subject): From what I understand, niqab is not typically worn by Shi'a (at least in the West), and I live near Dearborn (which, as I'm sure you know, has a huge Shi'a population). My Muslim friends are a mixture of Sunni and Shi'a...Some of them wear 7ijab very strictly (with an umtah and not a single strand of hair showing, as well as an 3abaya), while others are more lenient, and still others do not cover their heads in the first place. (My male Muslim friends also run the gamut of religious observance.) In my six years attending a university with a large Muslim population, I think I have seen niqab on campus two or three times. I have read about niqab being "a Sunni phenomenon", and was wondering if you knew why that is (without getting into Shi'a-Sunni conflicts). Is it true that Mu7ammad's wives were said to have covered their faces?

(Sorry for hijacking!)

I am not Sunnichick but maybe I can offer some insight. Shia only represent about 15% of Islam whereas the Sunni are the majority. With that said I've seen both Sunni and Shia wear nikab. The scholars disagree whether or not it is compulsory and therefore people can decide themselves whether or not to wear it. There are hadiths that indicate that Mohammed's wives wore nikaab after being harassed by passer byers but nothing to indicate this was required of other Muslim women.

[RR88]

Thank you, HijabiLady. I was actually able to pose this question to some (Sunni) friends this afternoon, and they told me the same thing.

[FaustianSlip]

I'm considering a Jewish conversion, althought the only Jewish community in my country is Orthodox. They say they're inclusive, but I'm not sure what that means in regards to converts. I agree that there are many issues with Orthodoxy, even when you're just skimming the surface, so that's stressing me out a little bit.

Saraelise, are you still in Edinburgh, as it says on your sidebar? If so, I wish we could have met up while I was there and talked (I'm a Conservative convert to Judaism). Anyway, if that's where you are, there may only be Orthodox shuls in Edinburgh, but there's at least one Reform congregation in Glasgow. Their website looks a bit sparse at the moment, but I'll bet if you e-mail them, you could get some more information on conversion if you decide you don't want to go the Orthodox route (or even if you're just exploring your options). I know it's a bit of a hike, but it could be something worth investigating.

And i'm a FREAK because I'd seriously be happier than a pig in SH*T if my synagogue had a daily minyan and I could go every day! But I fully admit to being epically insane. However, I'm a woman, so I'd not be allowed to go to Yeshiva and doing what the men do would be highly frowned upon. :-/

Um... can we be freaks together? Because I was going to shul, like, six or seven times a week before I came to China, between Shabbat services and either morning or evening minyanim during the week. I love me some davening, and I would love to go to yeshiva, but that's not currently an option for a variety of reasons (some to do with gender, some to do with time/money issues). There are times that I think that if I had converted sooner, I might have tried to go to rabbinical school, and my secret dream these days is to have the time and money to go to either the Conservative Yeshiva or Mechon Hadar. Maybe if I win the lottery someday....

[saraelise]

Saraelise, are you still in Edinburgh, as it says on your sidebar? If so, I wish we could have met up while I was there and talked (I'm a Conservative convert to Judaism). Anyway, if that's where you are, there may only be Orthodox shuls in Edinburgh, but there's at least one Reform congregation in Glasgow. Their website looks a bit sparse at the moment, but I'll bet if you e-mail them, you could get some more information on conversion if you decide you don't want to go the Orthodox route (or even if you're just exploring your options). I know it's a bit of a hike, but it could be something worth investigating.

I'm Edinburgh until the end of June (flying back there from my spring vacation in Denmark tomorrow), when are you there? Meeting up could be fun.

When I return to Denmark after my study abroad thingie, I'll have the option to convert either with the small Progressive shul or the Orthodox shul. I actually didn't know we had a Progressive community in Denmark until recently, and I'm not sure if they're recognised by the state but I plan to check out both shuls to explore my options. Sadly there's no Conservative shul in Copenhagen, so I would have to go to London to go that route, which I can't.

[FaustianSlip]

I actually already left; I was there for a couple of days earlier in the moth. JesusFighClub (who is awesome, BTW) and I met up for dinner and drinks. I have no idea about conversion in Denmark, except that typically, if you convert with a Reform beit din and include the traditional elements of beit din, mikvah and (if a guy) hatafat dam brit, Conservative rabbis and communities will typically accept that conversion as valid. Orthodoxy, of course, will only accept Orthodox conversions (and, increasingly, conversions from a relatively small list of "trusted" rabbis- this is particularly the case in Israel). It's a difficult situation, but I think it's what you make of it.