Modesty lecture in Hasidic Jewish school

[QAF_Rocks]

I'm currently reading Unorthodox: The Scandalous Rejection of My Hasidic Roots, and this excerpt made me think of FJ!

After recess, it’s time for the daily modesty lecture. Mrs. Meizlish continues where we left off in the story of Rachel, Rabbi Akiva’s saintly wife, and the rest of the class stares raptly at her. She has a good way of telling a story, Mrs. Meizlish, with her thick baritone that she modulates into an erratic rhythm that never quite lets you get comfortable. She always pauses at the best parts of the story to smooth a few stray hairs into her braid or pick an invisible piece of lint off her skirt, while the suspense builds and the girls gape anxiously at her.

Not only was Rachel, wife of Akiva, a truly righteous woman, but she was also an exceptionally modest person, to the point where—and here Mrs. Meizlish pauses for effect—she once stuck pins into her calves to keep her skirt from lifting in the breeze and exposing her kneecaps.

I cringe when I hear that. I can’t stop picturing the punctured calves of a woman, and in my mind the pricking takes place over and over again, each time drawing more blood, tearing muscle, gashing skin. Is that really what God wanted of Rachel? For her to mutilate herself so that no one could catch a glimpse of her knees?

Mrs. Meizlish writes the word ERVAH in big block letters on the chalkboard. “Ervah refers to any part of a woman’s body that must be covered, starting from the collarbone, ending at the wrists and knees. When ervah is exposed, men are commanded to leave its presence. Prayers or blessings may not be uttered when ervah is in sight.â€

“Don’t you see, girls,†Mrs. Meizlish proclaims, “how easy it is to fall into that category of choteh umachteh es harabim, the sinner who makes others sin, the worst sinner of all, simply by failing to uphold the highest standards of modesty? Every time a man catches a glimpse of any part of your body that the Torah says should be covered, he is sinning. But worse, you have caused him to sin. It is you who will bear the responsibility of his sin on Judgment Day.â€

All these different fundies, whether they be Christian, Jewish or Muslim, are preoccupied with controlling women's sexuality.

[SpeakNow]

I'm currently reading Unorthodox: The Scandalous Rejection of My Hasidic Roots, and this excerpt made me think of FJ!

All these different fundies, whether they be Christian, Jewish or Muslim, are preoccupied with controlling women's sexuality.

That is horrifying!

[saraelise]

I remember reading that part and having to touch my legs to make sure that they didn't have pins in them. Horrifying.

[Aerial312]

I just finished that book. Very interesting. There are so many parallels between the fundamentalists in various religions when it comes to oppressing women. The chapter about her learning about sex right before her wedding made me think about the thread where we've been talking about the Christians fundies going from 0 to 100 in one night.

[Guest Anonymous]

Show some tolerance people! ;)

[Sola]

Show some tolerance people! ;)

STFU.

[Boogalou]

Pinning your skirt to yourself is an image I could do without. Was this supposed to be an example of a good thing to do? I think it makes a far better example of modesty gone too far.

This sounds like an interesting book though, I think I will add it to my summer reading list.

[Guest Anonymous]

STFU.

:whistle:

[Guest Anonymous]

Rachel it seems was into S & M. :shhh:

[Sola]

:whistle:

And again; STFU. If you can't do that at least clean up the mess you left before on the rug.

[Stickers]

Not only was Rachel, wife of Akiva, a truly righteous woman, but she was also an exceptionally modest person, to the point where—and here Mrs. Meizlish pauses for effect—she once stuck pins into her calves to keep her skirt from lifting in the breeze and exposing her kneecaps.

:shock: Okay, now I'll just be over here rubbing my legs for the next 20 minutes.

They're tricky as fuck with this shit. Using shame (you're causing a man to sin! With your sinning) and fear (you will face most of the punishment for these sins).

Reading about all this modesty crap lately has just made me more committed to showing skin :D

[sugaree]

You know a foolproof way to keep your clothes securely covering your knees at all times? Pants.

[SpeakNow]

You know a foolproof way to keep your clothes securely covering your knees at all times? Pants.

QFT

[Kitty]

I don't do well with needles or anything puncturing flesh... I have to say, the very THOUGHT of a woman sticking pins into herself is... I don't think there's an emoticon for that, which sucks because there aren't any words for it either.

Needless, to say, I stopped reading after that part.

[debrand]

Oh my goodness, that is terrible. Could OCD cause someone to become so obsessed with modesty that they stick pins in their legs?

What is really sick is that the teacher held that up as an example of admirable behavior instead of considering it a sign that the person was mentally ill.

[Sunnichick31]

So, if God makes it windy enough to show your knees, it's your fault? Ok.

(off topic-one time i was wearing a skirt under an abaya and was walking in the wind. I ended up with a Marylin Monroe moment (skirt/abaya blew up to my waist) and to make things even better, my niqab flew up into my eyes so I couldn't see to fix the lower half of my body. I was embarassed beyond belief, but I figure God's the one in charge of the wind, He knew what would happen. Why can't more fundies think like that?)

[Koala]

QFT

:clap:

[Kitty]

So, if God makes it windy enough to show your knees, it's your fault? Ok.

(off topic-one time i was wearing a skirt under an abaya and was walking in the wind. I ended up with a Marylin Monroe moment (skirt/abaya blew up to my waist) and to make things even better, my niqab flew up into my eyes so I couldn't see to fix the lower half of my body. I was embarassed beyond belief, but I figure God's the one in charge of the wind, He knew what would happen. Why can't more fundies think like that?)

:o :( That's horrible, but a good way to think about it.

Incidentally, this is why I don't wear skirts, like, ever, without shorts underneath at least.

[QAF_Rocks]

I just finished that book. Very interesting. There are so many parallels between the fundamentalists in various religions when it comes to oppressing women. The chapter about her learning about sex right before her wedding made me think about the thread where we've been talking about the Christians fundies going from 0 to 100 in one night.

I'm not at that part yet, but I'm reading the chaper where she has graduated school and started her teaching job. Even with all the horrible restrictions, I can't help but think that Deborah has it a lot better than ATI/Gothard teenagers. For one, she doesn't have to be chaperoned everywhere she goes. She's able to travel around the city by herself and even makes furtive visits to the library. That's something I wish the Duggar girls (and those like them) would do in secret.

From the author's description, it doesn't sound like Hasidic boys actually have it much easier. The girls are spared most of the prayers and studying (due to sexist reasons, of course), but at least it's a break from the unrelenting religion. I would go insane if I were expected to spend all day and night in a yeshiva studying the Torah. What on earth does a Hasidic boy do if he hates ancient scriptures? Women and girls are equally regulated, of course, but at least they don't have to go to the synagogue and pray all the time. I would prefer cooking and cleaning to that.

[QAF_Rocks]

Pinning your skirt to yourself is an image I could do without. Was this supposed to be an example of a good thing to do? I think it makes a far better example of modesty gone too far.

This sounds like an interesting book though, I think I will add it to my summer reading list.

Yup, the teacher was holding up Rachel as a great example. It's definitely a fascinating memoir, and I'm really enjoying it. If anyone else is interested in this topic, I would also recommend Unchosen: The Hidden Lives of Hasidic Rebels by Hella Winston.

[boysmom]

This example is goofy anyway, Hasidic women also can't show their legs and wear thick stockings, so Rachel would have just pinned it to her stockings, not her legs. I have an online friend who is a Hasidic woman and she's explained tons of it to me. And she is kind of a rebel, btw. Although no outwardly.

[Guest Anonymous]

And again; STFU. If you can't do that at least clean up the mess you left before on the rug.

What mess? Give me a clue??? :think:

[QAF_Rocks]

This example is goofy anyway, Hasidic women also can't show their legs and wear thick stockings, so Rachel would have just pinned it to her stockings, not her legs. I have an online friend who is a Hasidic woman and she's explained tons of it to me. And she is kind of a rebel, btw. Although no outwardly.

I'd never heard of them, but Rabbi Akiva and his wife Rachel were not Hasidic Jews. They were held up by the school as examples of famous Jews from history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiva_ben_Joseph

[SisiL78]

Hasidim are a relatively new movement... Messiah based Jewry gone to the extreme. I think Rabbi Akivah pre-dated that.

I think Rabbi Akiva pre-dated Hasidim by 1600 years. I would think that the pinning of the skirt story was a modern invention. But, the imagery makes me cringe!!!

At least the girls were in a real school (with standards that they have to meet set by the state). And the boys get an earful too.

I too wonder what options there are for boys who truly hate studying Torah. Not to mention the fact that few boys and men are truly great scholars. The guys who are scholarly and love the study should totally be encouraged to do it. But, the rest would be better off with studying it less and studying useful topics more.... after all they might end up with a dozen mouths to feed by the time they reach 40, they need to be able to earn a good income.

The idea of daily modesty class sounds tedious... The teacher would have to be very talented to keep their attention day in day out... afterall how much can you really say about wearing a skirt and a long sleeve shirt?

[spragger]

:clap:

This is what I have always thought. Skirts and dresses give "easy access". They can blow up, etc. I always have to put shorts on my 8YO who still likes to hang upside down on the monkey bars, etc. It is way easier for a boy/man to dress "modestly." Wearing skirts makes no sense. It's not like your pants have to be tight.