Modesty lecture in Hasidic Jewish school

[saraelise]

I actually already left; I was there for a couple of days earlier in the moth. JesusFighClub (who is awesome, BTW) and I met up for dinner and drinks. I have no idea about conversion in Denmark, except that typically, if you convert with a Reform beit din and include the traditional elements of beit din, mikvah and (if a guy) hatafat dam brit, Conservative rabbis and communities will typically accept that conversion as valid. Orthodoxy, of course, will only accept Orthodox conversions (and, increasingly, conversions from a relatively small list of "trusted" rabbis- this is particularly the case in Israel). It's a difficult situation, but I think it's what you make of it.

Oh, what a shame :( I don't think anybody knows that much about conversion in Denmark, I don't remember reading about it, but I'm going to approach it when I get home for good. I'll certainly explore all options open to me for now and make my decision sometime this summer. I'll see what happens and take one step at a time. There's no need to rush a decision like that imo

[Boogalou]

Sorry to drag this thread up again but I followed through and just finished reading the book. It was quite interesting, although I got a weird vibe when reading the last few chapters and I am not really sure why. I didn't realize that she basically wrote the book right after she left and it seemed like she was trying to wrap up everything too neatly at the end and tried to almost present her new life as perfect. I don't know, it was just weird. The rest of the book was really interesting though, I learned a lot and she is a pretty decent writer. I do wonder though what was going on between her husband and his sister, and where he picked up the STI from. I wish she would have followed up on a few things that aren't really fleshed out in the book, like her relationship with her mother. Maybe she isn't ready to share things like that yet, but I would be interested if she wrote another book in another 10 or 20 years.

[holothuroidea]

The whole logic of modesty-by-dress is completely flawed.

The argument is that you need to cover yourself to stop men from sinning. Where else is it ever advised that you can control someone else's person's soul/mind/heart/intentions with the way you behave?

I think that this argument is a fairly recent invention. The reason for modesty in the "good old days" was clear, plain old protection of investment and personal property. Forcing women to wear clothes that cover their whole bodies was the same as locking your doors at night.

Now that most people reject the idea of women as chattel, fundies wrestle with enforcing all of the things that went along with it while dancing around the idea that, to them, women are things and not people. But to do it, they conjured up a rationalization that is completely inconsistent with the rest of their morality.

The whole "stop your brother from sinning" spin is a guilt/placate maneuver. It gives women some very small amount of power (placating) and guilts them into the desired behavior.

[ilovetchotchkes]

The whole logic of modesty-by-dress is completely flawed.

The argument is that you need to cover yourself to stop men from sinning. Where else is it ever advised that you can control someone else's person's soul/mind/heart/intentions with the way you behave?

I think that this argument is a fairly recent invention. The reason for modesty in the "good old days" was clear, plain old protection of investment and personal property. Forcing women to wear clothes that cover their whole bodies was the same as locking your doors at night.

Now that most people reject the idea of women as chattel, fundies wrestle with enforcing all of the things that went along with it while dancing around the idea that, to them, women are things and not people. But to do it, they conjured up a rationalization that is completely inconsistent with the rest of their morality.

The whole "stop your brother from sinning" spin is a guilt/placate maneuver. It gives women some very small amount of power (placating) and guilts them into the desired behavior.

Stop your brother from sinning. Isn't your "brother" responsible for his own behavior?

[holothuroidea]

Stop your brother from sinning. Isn't your "brother" responsible for his own behavior?

That's the way they reason everything else. Why do they make an exception in their logic for hem lengths?

[ilovetchotchkes]

That's the way they reason everything else. Why do they make an exception in their logic for hem lengths?

That's what I don't get. REALLY don't get. Women are supposed to be these weak helpless things, that can't survive without a man and should "submit to a headship" , and yet, THEY are responsible for men thinking or not thinking "dirty" thoughts?

My head hurts.

[holothuroidea]

That's what I don't get. REALLY don't get. Women are supposed to be these weak helpless things, that can't survive without a man and should "submit to a headship" , and yet, THEY are responsible for men thinking or not thinking "dirty" thoughts?

My head hurts.

Moreover, if a person has a jar full of coins on their desk and you see it and you covet it, is the owner of the jar responsible for your covetousness? Perhaps it would be more modest of them to not flaunt their wealth, and keep their coin jar in their drawer, but they would never be held responsible if someone stole their coins.

[Sunnichick31]

Something I don't get- if a man is so weak that even seeing a 5 year old in a tank top and shorts will defraud him, how can he be fit to be the head of a family?

[Zoom]

Oh, what a shame :( I don't think anybody knows that much about conversion in Denmark, I don't remember reading about it, but I'm going to approach it when I get home for good. I'll certainly explore all options open to me for now and make my decision sometime this summer. I'll see what happens and take one step at a time. There's no need to rush a decision like that imo

If you are in Copenhagen I think there is a large Jewish community in Malmö that you could contact.

[saraelise]

If you are in Copenhagen I think there is a large Jewish community in Malmö that you could contact.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply there weren't Jewish communities in Copenhagen (there are two, a progressive and an Orthodox one!) but just that conversion is rarely brought up in regards to these communities. Regardless, Malmö would present some problems because of public transportation and shabbos etc.

[Beammeup]

Pins in the leg. Self flagellation for being a female?