Modesty lecture in Hasidic Jewish school

[RR88]

Funny. I heard the sticking-pins-into-skin-to-be-modest story, too, but it took place in Nazi Germany. It's a nonsense legend.

[RR88]

Also, I agree that skirts are often less modest than pants are. There's a reason knee-length (or shorter) skirts make me feel sexy and vulnerable, while pants - unless particularly flattering - don't.

[RR88]

I'm not at that part yet, but I'm reading the chaper where she has graduated school and started her teaching job. Even with all the horrible restrictions, I can't help but think that Deborah has it a lot better than ATI/Gothard teenagers. For one, she doesn't have to be chaperoned everywhere she goes. She's able to travel around the city by herself and even makes furtive visits to the library. That's something I wish the Duggar girls (and those like them) would do in secret.

From the author's description, it doesn't sound like Hasidic boys actually have it much easier. The girls are spared most of the prayers and studying (due to sexist reasons, of course), but at least it's a break from the unrelenting religion. I would go insane if I were expected to spend all day and night in a yeshiva studying the Torah. What on earth does a Hasidic boy do if he hates ancient scriptures? Women and girls are equally regulated, of course, but at least they don't have to go to the synagogue and pray all the time. I would prefer cooking and cleaning to that.

When you learn that "a man who teaches his daughter Torah teaches her prostitution", you may envy the males' permission to be fully involved in the religion and its study. I know I did!

[apple1]

You know a foolproof way to keep your clothes securely covering your knees at all times? Pants.

BINGO.

[margiebargie]

Yeah. Pants. Pants are modest. Why are fundies so weird about pants. I never wear skirts. I have to climb up into my pickup. It's gotta be pants or I'm likely to put on a show. Plus the stairs at work are made from aluminum grating so a skirt is unthinkable. Even high heel shoes are a pain. The heels get stuck in the gaps. But I guess fundies would be wearing flip flops.

And daily modesty lesson? Daily? How much is there to learn? They're just repeating the same dire threats day after day. That's indoctrination not a "lesson".

[saraelise]

I think fundies play up the "danger" of wearing skirts. Honestly, I wear only skirts (I find jeans extremely uncomfortable to wear because of my body shape) and I've never had any problems with them. Yes, they blow up some times in windy weather but I just push them back down and move on with my life. It's really not that hard to wear skirts. I think fundies play up how difficult it is to feel more special.

And studying Torah makes girls prostitutes? Really?

[ilovetchotchkes]

I'm not at that part yet, but I'm reading the chaper where she has graduated school and started her teaching job. Even with all the horrible restrictions, I can't help but think that Deborah has it a lot better than ATI/Gothard teenagers. For one, she doesn't have to be chaperoned everywhere she goes. She's able to travel around the city by herself and even makes furtive visits to the library. That's something I wish the Duggar girls (and those like them) would do in secret.

From the author's description, it doesn't sound like Hasidic boys actually have it much easier. The girls are spared most of the prayers and studying (due to sexist reasons, of course), but at least it's a break from the unrelenting religion. I would go insane if I were expected to spend all day and night in a yeshiva studying the Torah. What on earth does a Hasidic boy do if he hates ancient scriptures? Women and girls are equally regulated, of course, but at least they don't have to go to the synagogue and pray all the time. I would prefer cooking and cleaning to that.

And i'm a FREAK because I'd seriously be happier than a pig in SH*T if my synagogue had a daily minyan and I could go every day! But I fully admit to being epically insane. However, I'm a woman, so I'd not be allowed to go to Yeshiva and doing what the men do would be highly frowned upon. :-/

As far as the skirt flying up- One of my Muslim friends in college would do this NIFTY thing where she'd wear pants and a mini-skirt. So she'd be completely covered, it looked sharp the way she did it, and she was still able to keep up with fashion. :)

From what I understand too, similar to the Xtian fundies, "modesty" isn't just what you're wearing, apparently its acting a certain way as well, so I guess it'd fall under "deportment" or something. O_o I'd go NUTS in an environment like that, in approximately 20 minutes.

[Kitchen Princess]

Does anyone know at what point men evolved to preferring pants over robes, and why the men did it and the women did not? I assume it had to be in Europe.

[saraelise]

Does anyone know at what point men evolved to preferring pants over robes, and why the men did it and the women did not? I assume it had to be in Europe.

Pants were at first a sign of barbarians. Writings from the Classical world indicate that tribes from Western/Northern Europe wore pants and thus were less refined than Greek and Italian people. Probably as Western Europe grew in power, wearing pants spread to men everywhere while women remained in skirts. In Northern Europe you would find men in dress-like garments, when they weren't at war, until the end of the Middle Ages. After the Reformation/Renaissance men would only wear garments like pants (hose etc.). That's all in relation to Europe, though.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Does anyone know at what point men evolved to preferring pants over robes, and why the men did it and the women did not? I assume it had to be in Europe.

Sometime before the reign of Henry VIII- tunics got shorter, men wore cod pieces over tights and by the time Elizabeth I showed up, they were wearing "pumpkin" pants. I don't know the exact historical timeline because that's not my era, but men's pants in the early 1600s' were funny looking as hell.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Yeah. Pants. Pants are modest. Why are fundies so weird about pants. I never wear skirts. I have to climb up into my pickup. It's gotta be pants or I'm likely to put on a show. Plus the stairs at work are made from aluminum grating so a skirt is unthinkable. Even high heel shoes are a pain. The heels get stuck in the gaps. But I guess fundies would be wearing flip flops.

And daily modesty lesson? Daily? How much is there to learn? They're just repeating the same dire threats day after day. That's indoctrination not a "lesson".

I also don't get why fundies wouldn't wear pants for occasions like that. I guess they want to prove how much they suffer for the lord, or something ridiculous like that. Or they're just not allowed to do activities where a skirt would be less modest like that. I find pants, unless they're super tight, to be waaay more modest than skirts. I mean I love skirts, and I wear them all the time, but they're not inherintly modest.

Daily modesty lesson makes me think of the SAHDs years of advanced homemaking training. What they're "learning" can be taught in like a day, but they keep going over the same t hing again and again because it's reallly all about indoctrination.

[bananacat]

You know what would prevent knees from showing much better than pins? Pants! This story is so ridiculous. If she were that concerned about her knees, why couldn't she wear long socks and then pin the dress to the fabric of her socks?

[bananacat]

I also don't get why fundies wouldn't wear pants for occasions like that. I guess they want to prove how much they suffer for the lord, or something ridiculous like that. Or they're just not allowed to do activities where a skirt would be less modest like that. I find pants, unless they're super tight, to be waaay more modest than skirts. I mean I love skirts, and I wear them all the time, but they're not inherintly modest.

Daily modesty lesson makes me think of the SAHDs years of advanced homemaking training. What they're "learning" can be taught in like a day, but they keep going over the same t hing again and again because it's reallly all about indoctrination.

This is the real reason for skirts-only for women. It's to exclude them from things. It excludes them socially by making them stick out rather than blend in, and it excludes them physically because it's hard to do certain things in a skirt without exposing your underwear. It makes it much easier to keep them home in the kitchen when there are just so many things that they can't do. I'm actually surprised that the Duggars allow their daughters to go hiking and help with construction when they have to wear skirts to do it. I think that if the cameras weren't around, they would be excluded from those things for the sake of "modesty".

[mirele]

I have sciatica and it's acting up right now, so occasionally my right knee feels like pins are being stuck in it, like a pin cushion. I can't even imagine the idea of someone deliberately pushing a pin in their legs, because it hurts and it would bleed and leave a wound, etc. I'm suspecting Judaism is more sensible than that, and the story is modern horsepuckey dreamed up to make girls feel strange about even inadvertently exposing themselves.

[SisiL78]

I know women who won't go to the gym to work out b/c its so hard to do in a skirt, then other women who work out in skirts, and yet others who say screw that and wear sweat pants to work out (and snoods instead of wigs) b/c working out is important. Its ridiculous to limit your activities, especially when you need to do them for your health b/c of a fashion. That's what it is. There is some edict that you cannot wear the clothes of the other gender, but when you point out that men once wore jewelry and makeup and heels or the biblical times when men wore tunics and things that looked like dresses they just scoff. Also, there is definately a difference between men's pans and women's pants. Its so silly b/c fashion always changes. I'd think that the men/woman thing is easily solved by the Left/Right buttons thing.

[RR88]

Yes, saraelise, there really is a (widely-held in the Orthodox Jewish world) view that teaching a female Torah is forbidden and thus "teaching her prostitution". It's a quote from the Talmud. I agree with many of you that skirts physically limit the wearer.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Sometime before the reign of Henry VIII- tunics got shorter, men wore cod pieces over tights and by the time Elizabeth I showed up, they were wearing "pumpkin" pants. I don't know the exact historical timeline because that's not my era, but men's pants in the early 1600s' were funny looking as hell.

Heh. Hammer pants!!! I guess you couldn't touch this back in the 1600's either!

I've seen the short skirt over pants layered look (or nowadays with thick leggings that are sort of in between tights and pants). Done right it can look sharp.

The rationale I hear against pants (from the Jewish perspective) is (1) they're men's clothing, which it's forbidden for women to wear, period, and (2) pants are scandalous because you can see the region where the girl's legs meet - fully clothed, sure, but you're thinking of where her legs meet.

Plenty of people of course counter with (1) they make pants specifically for women now so as long as your pants are femmy it should be okay, and (2) that's just ridiculous, everyone knows that all standard-format humans have legs that come together by the hips, it's not some big mystery.

But there's lots of discussion about the over-emphasis on modesty for girls to the exclusion of all sorts of other things (even permitted religious things) as part of the "slide to the right," among people fully in it. Even if you just talk about running a household there's plenty of rules you need to learn and at some places there's worry that those are being given the short-shrift to make room for over the top endless modesty lectures.

[QAF_Rocks]

When you learn that "a man who teaches his daughter Torah teaches her prostitution", you may envy the males' permission to be fully involved in the religion and its study. I know I did!

I guess I'm coming at it more from an atheist perspective. The sexism is absolutely horrific, but both boys and girls are told what they must do, and given the two choices, I'd much prefer to remain in the domestic sphere rather than spend hours upon hours studying the Torah. I'd never envy a Hasidic boy his fate, even if the religion views it as an honor.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Heh. Hammer pants!!! I guess you couldn't touch this back in the 1600's either!

I've seen the short skirt over pants layered look (or nowadays with thick leggings that are sort of in between tights and pants). Done right it can look sharp.

The rationale I hear against pants (from the Jewish perspective) is (1) they're men's clothing, which it's forbidden for women to wear, period, and (2) pants are scandalous because you can see the region where the girl's legs meet - fully clothed, sure, but you're thinking of where her legs meet.

Plenty of people of course counter with (1) they make pants specifically for women now so as long as your pants are femmy it should be okay, and (2) that's just ridiculous, everyone knows that all standard-format humans have legs that come together by the hips, it's not some big mystery.

But there's lots of discussion about the over-emphasis on modesty for girls to the exclusion of all sorts of other things (even permitted religious things) as part of the "slide to the right," among people fully in it. Even if you just talk about running a household there's plenty of rules you need to learn and at some places there's worry that those are being given the short-shrift to make room for over the top endless modesty lectures.

My argument is, "I"m wearing maternity jeans, there is NO WAY these were manufactured as a "man's" garment" :P

Its scary isn't it? Like, i'm modest because I'm a big girl, and well, i'm just more comfortable being covered up because I am always freezing my ass off. But to sit there and stipulate how THICK your tights should be and pinning your skirt to your legs... its just terrifying.

[RR88]

I understand, QAF_Rocks. I don't envy the males, either. But they certainly are seen as more important, and I envied them "back in the day".

[QAF_Rocks]

Daily modesty lesson makes me think of the SAHDs years of advanced homemaking training. What they're "learning" can be taught in like a day, but they keep going over the same t hing again and again because it's reallly all about indoctrination.

Exactly, and of course one of the main problems is that they view modesty as a virtue. There's no room in any of these fundamentalist communities for people who refuse to believe that modesty (or faith) is a virtue.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I understand, QAF_Rocks. I don't envy the males, either. But they certainly are seen as more important, and I envied them "back in the day".

Oh but their argument is: Women are more HOLY than men so they don't NEED to pray and study Torah. :shock: :roll:

When I was told this by an ex-friend who was just plain old Modern Orthodox, I just nodded and smiled politely and then proceeded to die a little bit on the inside. (this same person's husband refused to help her out with the children. YAY SEXISM!!!)

I have a problem with that- I seriously seriously do. Why should I be excluded from an activity just because I lack a Y chromosome? and have my husband be frowned upon for being the BEST DAD EVER and expertly and quickly executing diaper changes because he honestly doesn't mind.

[QAF_Rocks]

I understand, QAF_Rocks. I don't envy the males, either. But they certainly are seen as more important, and I envied them "back in the day".

Oh, definitely. One of my first encounters with sexism was in a book I had in elementary school, They Led the Way, about famous American women. I remember being so outraged that one of the women profiled, Ernestine Rose, had to listen to her father pray every morning and give thanks that he hadn't been born a woman. Fortunately, young Ernestine was outraged too!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernestine_Rose

I doubt she's being held up as a role model in any Hasidic schools. ;)

[ilovetchotchkes]

Oh, definitely. One of my first encounters with sexism was in a book I had in elementary school, They Led the Way, about famous American women. I remember being so outraged that one of the women profiled, Ernestine Rose, had to listen to her father pray every morning and give thanks that he hadn't been born a woman. Fortunately, young Ernestine was outraged too!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernestine_Rose

I doubt she's being held up as a role model in any Hasidic schools. ;)

Yeah, our Reform prayer book changed the wording to thanking G_d for being made in G_d's image. The one morning Orthodox service i went to and saw that little gem I was shocked and like Ernestine, outraged!

[RR88]

Yeah, our Reform prayer book changed the wording to thanking G_d for being made in G_d's image. The one morning Orthodox service i went to and saw that little gem I was shocked and like Ernestine, outraged!

There's a lot of apologism attached to that prayer/blessing. If men are glad for being made men, why not just have men say "thank you for making me male" and women can say "thank you for making me female"?

Well, you see, to presume that one is a perfect "man" or "woman" would be arrogant. So the men say something they are certain is true (that they're not women), while women thank God for making them "according to his will" (which is, according to Orthodoxy, true for all of us)...and that covers it. Also, the men are supposedly thanking God for giving them more commandments to perform than women are given...and this is said in the same breath as "Orthodox Judaism recognizes that women are on a higher spiritual level than men are", which is never posited as a justification for women to start thanking God that they are not male . The inconsistencies make my head spin!