Titanic: Doug Really Likes the Titanic!

[YPestis]

There are many stories from third class survivors about gates being locked and passages being closed off by crew members so they could not reach the boat deck before most of the boats had launched. So yes, they were the furthest away from the deck, but there were alo very deliberate attempts made to keep them there.

I thought the gates were locked or closed off already for other reasons (as in, it was a normal part of the ship's operating procedures to prevent the lower classes from climbing up to mingle with the upper class passenger), not because there was a deliberate attempt to prevent people from reaching the boat deck during an evacuation. My understanding was policy makers realized every ship had to be designed with the idea of mass evacuation in mind.

[Mommy22alyns]

What gets me is the whole "let's celebrate a tragedy" attitude. Titanic today, holocaust tomorrow.

This. It's rather disgusting.

[JenniferJuniper]

I thought the gates were locked or closed off already for other reasons (as in, it was a normal part of the ship's operating procedures to prevent the lower classes from climbing up to mingle with the upper class passenger), not because there was a deliberate attempt to prevent people from reaching the boat deck during an evacuation. My understanding was policy makers realized every ship had to be designed with the idea of mass evacuation in mind.

I don't have time to look for links for you, but there are stories from a number of third class survivors about them being deliberately kept down by stewards. Some stewards did allow women and children up, but there were portions that were kept locked for all until it was too late. Further, unlike what was done in first and second class, the crew did not search to notify people in third class cabins or common areas about the danger. There was no PA system, of course. Non-English speakers were at serious disadvantage because they couldn't even understand the word-of-mouth rumors.

I don't usually like reenactment type shows much but if you can catch the "Curiosity - What Sank The Titanic" episode (Planet Green?) hosted by Bill Paxton, they used inquest testimony from passengers and today's science to help reconstruct what happened that night. It was really well done.

***Just edited to add that if you look at the survival stats, you'll also note that out of 66 employees of the first class à la Carte Restaurant on B Deck, only three survived. These people were not employed by White Star but instead by a concession service. Several passengers later claimed that these people were locked up in their cabins by stewards to prevent them from getting to the life boats.

[O Latin]

So, at one point, the Titanic was my history nerd obsession of the moment, and I'm having a "100th anniversary of the Titanic" party, which is kind of weird, I'll admit (although my close friends who know me really well seem to get it). I don't really see it as celebrating, per se, but as...commemorating, maybe. I don't know.

Anyway, I could go on for ages about the various factors that compounded the tragedy, but other people have done a much better job of that than I probably would. So I'm just going to say that even if everyone had been given an equal shot at the lifeboats, there was still only space for half of them. The only way the tragedy really could have been prevented would have been to have enough lifeboats for everybody.

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm just going to say that even if everyone had been given an equal shot at the lifeboats, there was still only space for half of them. The only way the tragedy really could have been prevented would have been to have enough lifeboats for everybody.

What they also didn't realize was that the boats could have been pretty significantly overloaded and many more lives saved. The sea was dead calm that night, and when they tested the lifeboats for optimum passenger count, hefty men were used; no women or youngsters.

It was just incredibly bad disaster planning all around.

[spragger]

What they also didn't realize was that the boats could have been pretty significantly overloaded and many more lives saved. The sea was dead calm that night, and when they tested the lifeboats for optimum passenger count, hefty men were used; no women or youngsters.

It was just incredibly bad disaster planning all around.

Maybe it sounds really utilitarian, but a few hundred more lives is still a few hundred more lives, right? Men lives *gasp* are worth as much as women's. From what I've read it was a mismanaged clusterfuck.

There is this horrible song we used to have to sing at the camp I was a counselor at that made light of the disaster and I hated it. That being said, I will be going to the rerelease of the movie, and I will call Jack a dumbass when he doesn't at least try a second time to get up out of the water. I read somewhere that they have since learned that the ship did not break apart in the way they thought it had, the way it is portrayed in the film, and there wasn't a huge amount of suction created either.

[Miggy]

I have read, although I have no proof, that many of the early lifeboats were launched with only women & children from first class according to the ships policy. (It was later when panic set in that boats were sent away half full, men pushed women out of the way, etc.) Once these boats were in the water there ws nobody in these boats capable of rowing the boats and they drifted where the ocean took them. I'm not saying men would have been any help - I imagine rowing a lifeboat in the ocean is quite difficult. I know that most ships now have the policy that at least one crew member is aboard each lifeboat.

[JenniferJuniper]

I have read, although I have no proof, that many of the early lifeboats were launched with only women & children from first class according to the ships policy. (It was later when panic set in that boats were sent away half full, men pushed women out of the way, etc.) Once these boats were in the water there ws nobody in these boats capable of rowing the boats and they drifted where the ocean took them. I'm not saying men would have been any help - I imagine rowing a lifeboat in the ocean is quite difficult. I know that most ships now have the policy that at least one crew member is aboard each lifeboat.

The launched lifeboats were manned by male crew members. Women didn't row, although there is a story that some of the women on Molly Brown's boat later asked to row to keep warm.

The first boat launched had only 28 people in it out of a possible 65. Including crew, about half of them were male. At that point, many people still thought it was just a drill and opted to stay on board.

The boats didn't drift away; they were rowed away due to fears that they'd be swamped by desperate people in the water once it was known the ship would sink. The few that did return weren't able to rescue too many people because the icy cold water quickly killed them.

There aren't many stories of any men pushing women or children away, however, at least one of the officers loading boats was more liberal about letting men on even when there were some women and children still in the general area.

[marmalade]

Let me put this through my Dougie translator.........Output: "Yippee!!! Me and the interns get to play dress up and act like heros!!"

Just as long as the interns dressed up like ladies in distress so he can:save" them (and no, I don't mean spiritually).

[allyisyourpally5]

I find it beyond sick that Dougie is doing this. How does he know that absolutely no man took a seat over a woman? Does he have any clue how many women and children died that night? This tragedy would have boiled down to every person for themself, and the majority of the human population to be frank, are cowards, and would take a seat on a boat offered to them. What a total insensitive bastard.

Anyway, the Titanic fasinates me, has done for a long time. Maybe Doug should consider that the ship was designed by a man, that a man wanted the ship to go faster, that a man decided they didnt need more lifeboats (though they had more than was legally required at the time), that men did survive over women, and that, while the class system may have been adjusted for movie purposes, it was there, very much so. From what I've read, the gates down in 3rd class were to simply block off the different class areas initially, and when the ice berg was struck they just didn't get opened as many didn't believe the ship was sinking until it was too late. (I am not stating this as fact).

Maybe Doug should look into the Cruiseliner that struck the rock and shallow water back in January near Italy, the Costa Concordier. People died in this disaster too, thought to be because the MALE captain wanted to wave to someone near the shore.

Heroes come in bith genders, women will have sacrificed on that night too. Bastard

[spragger]

I find it beyond sick that Dougie is doing this. How does he know that absolutely no man took a seat over a woman? Does he have any clue how many women and children died that night? This tragedy would have boiled down to every person for themself, and the majority of the human population to be frank, are cowards, and would take a seat on a boat offered to them. What a total insensitive bastard.

Anyway, the Titanic fasinates me, has done for a long time. Maybe Doug should consider that the ship was designed by a man, that a man wanted the ship to go faster, that a man decided they didnt need more lifeboats (though they had more than was legally required at the time), that men did survive over women, and that, while the class system may have been adjusted for movie purposes, it was there, very much so. From what I've read, the gates down in 3rd class were to simply block off the different class areas initially, and when the ice berg was struck they just didn't get opened as many didn't believe the ship was sinking until it was too late. (I am not stating this as fact).

Maybe Doug should look into the Cruiseliner that struck the rock and shallow water back in January near Italy, the Costa Concordier. People died in this disaster too, thought to be because the MALE captain wanted to wave to someone near the shore.

Heroes come in bith genders, women will have sacrificed on that night too. Bastard

Men absolutely did. One in particular got very bad press over it. J. Bruce Ismay. He was branded a coward and later portrayed as having taken a spot by pretending to be a woman (in films), but I think in truth there was just space in one of the boats and he got on. I just checked out a book on him called "How to Survive the Titanic or The Sinking of J. Bruce Ismay." A lot of men got in boats, but for some reason Ismay took a lot of flack for it.

It was a ridiculous rule really, aside from making sure to safeguard the children. But to look back and judge men considering that they launched a lot of boats half full and a lot of people chose not to get on boats early on when they had the chance (because they didn't think the ship would really sink) just seems pointless.

It's my understanding that the "speed the boat up" thing is just a myth, and speed was not really a factor in the crash (aside from if the boat had not been moving at all.) Actually, trying to turn at the last minute to avoid the iceberg was worse. It would've been much better to hit it straight on.

[Patsy]

Well, er, I guess I can thank Dougie for indirectly inspiring my edumacation on the matter, because I was very interested to read all the facts from JenniferJ, shesinsane, spragger, Feberin etc.

[SisiL78]

I am honestly surprised they haven't gone there yet. "Let's celebrate the brave Christians who helped hide the Jews." But not any that may have hidden homosexuals, cause, you know.

Oh let me add "Let's Celebrate the brave Christians who helped hide the Jews so that they may live to be killed or converted during The Rapture End Times (or whatever they call it)"

[Sola]

Sponsored by Vision Forum Ministries and the Christian Boy’s and Men’s Titanic Society, Titanic 100 will feature living history presentations, dramatic performances, live music of the 1912 era, stirring messages, costume events, an anniversary banquet riverboat cruise

So Dougie plans to re-enact the sinking? Will there be icebergs? Enquiring minds need to know.

Doug Phillips is a tool. Actually no, Doug Phillips is an asshole.

[Terrasola]

For many years I lived in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where a prominent city cemetary has an entire section filled with Titanic victims. Haligonians do NOT NOT NOT celebrate the anniversary of its sinking; we commemorate it to remember those poor souls, regardless of economic class, who lost their lives that night.

[spragger]

Here is the horrible song we had to sing: http://www.songlyrics.com/girl-scout-so ... ng-lyrics/

The lyrics listed are not complete, the video actually shows him singing the complete lyrics, which is not exactly how we sang it b/c we were not playing instruments.

The worst part IMO are the lines: "the rich refused to associate with the poor/so they went down below/where they were the first to go" and "the moral of the story is very plain to see/you should wear a life preserver when you go out to sea"

They mention "Lady Astor" who was the newlywed pregnant wife of John Jacob Astor IV, who did not survive because they wouldn't let him get on the boat with his pregnant wife. So, instead, they lowered the boat which was not yet full, and his son was raised without a father, and I believe screwed out of his inheritance because his will was never changed. If the family had been on the other side of the ship he most likely would've been allowed on the lifeboat, but the officer in charge of their side interpreted "women and children first" as "women and children only".

Here is a link to some additional lyrics that include lines like "the ship was full of sin/and the sides about to burst/when the captain shouted/women and children first!"

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 650AA6YSfJ

[Noodle]

(So this thread is what finally got me to register on FJ, although I have been lurking for, well, a very long time now.)

I do not get Doug's obsession with the Titanic. There's pretty solid evidence that "Women and Children First" wasn't really followed all that closely, and in some cases, resulted in half-filled lifeboats and more victims. And why would you want to recreate and celebrate that event anyway??

J. Bruce Ismay got bad publicity, I think, because although he was the owner of the line, he didn't "go down with the ship" like the Captain and Thomas Andrews, the designer.

For my fellow Titanic nerds, I just finished reading “Voyagers of the Titanic: Passengers, Sailors, Shipbuilders, Aristocrats, and the Worlds They Came From,†by Richard Davenport-Hynes, which was pretty good. There are a couple other Titanic books coming out this month.

[twin2]

(So this thread is what finally got me to register on FJ, although I have been lurking for, well, a very long time now.)

I do not get Doug's obsession with the Titanic. There's pretty solid evidence that "Women and Children First" wasn't really followed all that closely, and in some cases, resulted in half-filled lifeboats and more victims. And why would you want to recreate and celebrate that event anyway??

J. Bruce Ismay got bad publicity, I think, because although he was the owner of the line, he didn't "go down with the ship" like the Captain and Thomas Andrews, the designer.

For my fellow Titanic nerds, I just finished reading “Voyagers of the Titanic: Passengers, Sailors, Shipbuilders, Aristocrats, and the Worlds They Came From,†by Richard Davenport-Hynes, which was pretty good. There are a couple other Titanic books coming out this month.

Because it allows Capt. Dougie to 1) Dress up in a fabulous costume, 2) Travel to someplace nice and most importantly 3) Make money.

**Doug Phillips is a tool**

[Noon]

Here's a very interesting breakdown on survivors vs nonsurvivors on the Titanic, for anyone who's interested: http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/titanic.html

[NurseNell]

Here's a very interesting breakdown on survivors vs nonsurvivors on the Titanic, for anyone who's interested: http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/titanic.html

I also posted the link. It is the best breakdown I've seen.

[Noon]

Whoops, my mistake. I must have missed the link you put up!

I read through some information on Titanic passengers today, and this piece of information about Madeline Astor really stuck with me: "His young widow and the other survivors were rescued by the RMS Carpathia, and afterward she did not talk about the disaster except to mention her last memory of the sinking was seeing their dog, Kitty, pacing on the deck."

Jesus, talk about gut wrenching. Anyone who has a tea party celebrating this is an idiot of the highest order and deserves to be pelted with some form of rotten vegetable.

[NurseNell]

Dougie didn't like my posts on his FB page, all were removed and I can no longer post.

Doug Phillips is a tool.

[Aurora]

Dougie didn't like my posts on his FB page, all were removed and I can no longer post.

Doug Phillips is a tool.

You are banned from the VF FB page? Lovely way to treat a Navy nurse and veteran.

**Tool**

[Artemis]

Small, amusing fact, but when I was looking for Doug Phillips on Facebook - realise now I should have looked for the Vision Forum page to make my disgust about what he is doing to history clear - I came across another Doug Phillips who works for a male escort agency, and whose cover photo shows him wearing nothing but a small purple posing pouch.

(I'm not going to post the pic here, because I found the expression on the guy's face quite sad, and it seems disrespectful. I wouldn't like anyone to make fun of him.)

But I couldn't help laughing at the thought that psychically, that's where our Doug Phillips is - out there with a purple posing pouch. And you know, if he saw that photo, he would probably think that the 'male escort' was rather less than a manly man and condemn him to hell, but in essence, Vision Forum's Doug pimps himself out completely shamelessly in the sacred name of Jesus . . . and is far less of a man, and far, far more of a hypocrite for doing so than the guy who is honest about what he does.

[LadyBlue]

Here is the horrible song we had to sing: http://www.songlyrics.com/girl-scout-so ... ng-lyrics/

We learned a shorter version in Guides. Except for the last couple lines, our version was a lot more respectful.

ETA. The chorus on ours was

"Oh it was sad, so sad

It was sad, so sad

It was sad when the great ship went down

to the bottom of the sea

Husbands and wives, little children

lost their lives

It was sad when the great ship went down"