Bethany Patchin speaks out (and a NYT article)

[treemom]

Would you allow your child to be alone with a rapist?

A person who is a rapist, or has abused children, or has committed crimes against someone physically can be good parents, but from the POV of the family court system, they are not "trusted" to be primary custodians. If my husband had raped me, I would raise hell and high water to make his visits supervised, because as a general rule, people who commit crimes of power, like rape and molestation tend to keep committing those crimes. That would potentially put the child in danger.

It would not be in the "best interests of the child" to be with a parent who is a rapist without supervision, and that's what the courts are going to look at.

Well my abusive parents see my child.

[Witsec1]

She deleted the post.

I don't get why we are still discussing it. If we're really worried about the kids finding out, maybe we should stop repeating how the mother is accusing the father of being an ass-raper?

[aerynoctober]

So does this work in reverse for you? If a man badmouths the mother of his children and accuses her on a blog of "stealing" his child support money or other possibly felonious activities, which seems to be a fairly common MRA activity, does he only get supervised visitation and a CPS investigation? Or should the woman just roll with those accusations because she has an obligation not to upset the kids? I ask because based on this thread and others you seem to have some serious problems with birth mothers.

As to birth mother "problems," I simply do not take an automatic position that they're always victimized by men. I have worked in the legal system and law enforcement both, and seen far too many scenarios of women crying "abuse" to get what they want. In not even close to the most egregious example, a woman who was battered and bloody claimed her ex-spouse did it. He was arrested. I sat in court, stunned, and watched a security tape that his attorney had subpoenaed, as this idiot took several deep breaths, ran, and threw herself down the stairs.

No doubt someone will immediately claim, or at least think, that he must have been so evil that she was driven to such terrible lengths to prevent him from abusing their children.

Actually, she had a drug problem and wanted him safely in jail where he couldn't watch her turn tricks for drug money.

Spend enough time in law enforcement or the family court system, and you will understand that women are just as capable of being horrible psychotic monsters as men. This is real feminism; we are equal to men in every way. Automatic assumptions that women are victims is college rhetoric carried into real life. It does not serve women.

[Austin]

Austin: in the scenario you lay out, would he have almost 50% custody? The issue is that they don't just have occasional visitation with him, the usual four days a month that dads get stuck with. They are with him just shy of 50% of the time (4 days a week vs. 3 days a week). They are alone and helpless and dependent on him for very nearly half their lives, and at VERY young ages.

If she filed charges and prosecuted him, then he'd either be doing time or she'd be trying hard to get him to have only supervised visitation. It's the "he's a rapist who I am perfectly content to give unsupervised access to the children 50% of their lives to because he's such a good father" that creates the conundrum. If he's a good enough father to have 50% custody, he's a good enough father to NOT have the kids be put in a position where they have to be torn between loving their daddy and hating the man who ass-raped their mother.

Yes, I get all of that. I get that in this case, the wife did not press charges and it is what it is now and he's got partial custody, etc. That is the custody issue and that is one issue.

Aside from the custody issue, there seems to be a different argument that the children should not know these sorts of things because they will feel bad that one person they love hurt another person they love. If there was no shared custody, and whether he was charged and adjudicated criminally or not, should the children know now at age appropriate levels? Should they ever know? Just speaking generally here, so no need to re-litigate what a custody judge would say.

[aerynoctober]

Austin: if there was no shared custody, my personal position on the moral aspect would be to tell them in an age-appropriate way only at the same age that other troubling topics are brought up (date rape, consent, drugs taken both on purpose or because someone slipped them into your drink, etc.)

[Austin]

Austin: if there was no shared custody, my personal position on the moral aspect would be to tell them in an age-appropriate way only at the same age that other troubling topics are brought up (date rape, consent, drugs taken both on purpose or because someone slipped them into your drink, etc.)

Those are far different "troubling topics" than "your father raped me".

I guess we're talking past each other here.

[treemom]

My son at 10 was discussing these difficult subjects. And I still wouldn't tell him his father raped me. But that is because that is my choice, not some morally superior choice,

Just a few months ago I talked with him about consensual sex and pressure to have sex.

[meda]

As to birth mother "problems," I simply do not take an automatic position that they're always victimized by men. I have worked in the legal system and law enforcement both, and seen far too many scenarios of women crying "abuse" to get what they want. In not even close to the most egregious example, a woman who was battered and bloody claimed her ex-spouse did it. He was arrested. I sat in court, stunned, and watched a security tape that his attorney had subpoenaed, as this idiot took several deep breaths, ran, and threw herself down the stairs.

No doubt someone will immediately claim, or at least think, that he must have been so evil that she was driven to such terrible lengths to prevent him from abusing their children.

Actually, she had a drug problem and wanted him safely in jail where he couldn't watch her turn tricks for drug money.

Spend enough time in law enforcement or the family court system, and you will understand that women are just as capable of being horrible psychotic monsters as men. This is real feminism; we are equal to men in every way. Automatic assumptions that women are victims is college rhetoric carried into real life. It does not serve women.

It equally does not serve women to assume that they are all lying drug addicted prostitutes when they challenge the behaviour of their former spouses. Do you have any proof that Bethany's husband did not abuse her? Or do you simply feel that her abuse is irrelevant to the issue of what type of custodial arrangement you seem to think is appropriate for her children?

[aerynoctober]

My son at 10 was discussing these difficult subjects. And I still wouldn't tell him his father raped me. But that is because that is my choice, not some morally superior choice,

Just a few months ago I talked with him about consensual sex and pressure to have sex.

Good for you. That is excellent parenting. More mothers of sons should do the same. Perhaps there would be fewer rapist husbands if more mothers were like you.

[aerynoctober]

It equally does not serve women to assume that they are all lying drug addicted prostitutes when they challenge the behaviour of their former spouses. Do you have any proof that Bethany's husband did not abuse her? Or do you simply feel that her abuse is irrelevant to the issue of what type of custodial arrangement you seem to think is appropriate for her children?

I assume that everyone, male and female alike, is innocent until they are proven guilty.

She is happy to hand her children over to her rapist for 3 of every 7 days, so SHE certainly seems to feel her abuse is irrelevant to the issue of what type of custodial arrangement is appropriate for her children.

[aerynoctober]

Bethany's story is one I've followed from the very beginning, almost twelve years ago, and I am thrilled for her that she's gotten out of the patriarchy. I have deep fear, based on long professional experience, that she made a stupid mistake that could complicate her life unnecessarily. I hope she finds a way to continue to reach greater levels of peace and happiness and that she is spared from the potential legal consequences of what she did, because she appears to be a good mother.

I've been in bed nursing an injury for a few days, but my real life needs me back now that I can walk again.

I have now said all I'm going to say.

[meda]

I assume that everyone, male and female alike, is innocent until they are proven guilty.

She is happy to hand her children over to her rapist for 3 of every 7 days, so SHE certainly seems to feel her abuse is irrelevant to the issue of what type of custodial arrangement is appropriate for her children.

So again, he gets a pass because of patriarchal upbringing and becasue it's really all his mother's fault for not explaining consent, but you can cut her no slack at all even though she comes out of the same upbringing and it might take a few years post divorce to process and acknowledge what happened to her? That doesn't strike you as a bit of a double standard?

[treemom]

Good for you. That is excellent parenting. More mothers of sons should do the same. Perhaps there would be fewer rapist husbands if more mothers were like you.

Hardly. I suspect Sam would have done better with a healthy view of sex, which includes anal sex which is consensual l isn't shameful, than a mother who says don't rape people.

I am just a mom. One who makes good choices and bad choices. I am not beatifying myself, just refusing to participate in a wholesale demonizing of Bethany or Sam.

[duplessis3]

Bethany wasn't raised in a patriarchal christianist sect. She says in the article her way of rebelling was to get more conservative.

I found it disturbing and interesting that she feels that teenage boys are incapable of being sensitive lovers. While they certainly would be if they are raised to think they have the only needs that matter (and god knows if they are even told anything about women being able to orgasm.) Plus I imagine it would be quite difficult for a submissive woman to claim her needs.

I believe that it is quite possible for there to be a difference of opinion on whether rape has occurred. The man in a patriarchal system would assume that consent was acquired when the ring slipped on her finger. A woman would (correctly) have an opinion that consent needed to be acquired for each and every sexual act. i think in this sort of case, that a man that evolves from the patriarchal mindset would not necessarily continue to rape. (there's a dr. phil-ism that is quite common that the best way to tell future behavior is by past behavior, which means that people can not possibly change. )

FWI, I've been raped. (Not by my husband!) And like many many things in my past, I do not intend to share those events with my children

[Patsy]

I was going to send out PMs to a few people in this thread, but it isn't that old a topic, and I think I should start being more public when I disagree with people.

Quoted for truth:

I'm sorry, but how does it do her no favors?? So, she "badmouths" a man, and she's tarred and feathered, but HE RAPES HER, and she's supposed to wipe it under the rug "for the sake of the children?" NO.

I know more things about my mother's relationship with both my father and her current husband than I ever needed or wanted to know. And, although much of it repulses me, I am now glad I know. It explains a hell of a lot of secrets and other things that were 'off' as I was growing up. It clarifies a lot of things that in some ways made life really hard and confusing at the time as I was kept in the dark. I know who my father was as a human being and I also know who my mother is as a human being. I take no sides and I never transferred their sick relationships to myself. Trust me, we all have our own sick relationships, I never needed to take on any of their issues.

If protecting your kid's world from being shattered means you do not speak up about your own pain and experiences...who are you helping and who are you hiding behind? ...

Silence is seldom the answer.

And the victim owns the story NOT HER CHILDREN. I own the story of my abuse and survival, not my child.

Hey, here's a tip - if you don't want your kids to find out you're a rapist, don't rape anyone.

I understand that some parents overshare trauma with their children, and this is traumatic to the children, and not done with their best interests in mind. But I can say from my own fucked up history, that knowing about the fucked up history and at least attempting to deal with it, has been statistically far healthier than desperately trying to avoid the truth and pretend it isn't so "for the sake of ----" (which usually translates to "for my sake, because I can't deal with this yet", or "to protect the abuser, because otherwise I'll have to acknowledge I have damn good reasons not to protect them")

(I am speaking for the moral question, not the legal/custody question.)

[Pearl]

I was told it was very difficult to prove certain things that happened in my marriage and to not try to do anything about it. I wasn't happy with the custody arrangement, but it isn't 50/50. Sometimes it is more difficult to get sole custody than people think (I have been criticized for not trying to get sole custody). So far it has been okay. I do not write about my experiences (using my name) online because of parental alienation - I'm more afraid of him trying to get more time with the kids than having to tell my story. I made the decision a long time ago NOT to tell my story to a public venue until my kids are grown and I have told them first (and if there is a reason for it).

There are people I have told about my life and of course the lovely therapist.

Like someone said earlier, while everything might be hunky dorey today, who knows what will happen in the future.

But, I'm not a bold person nor am I a crusader.