Bethany Patchin speaks out (and a NYT article)

[silvia]

Bethany Patchin, who some of you may remember in her past incarnation as Boundless poster girl for no kissing before marriage and author of Open Embrace: A Protestant Couple Rethinks Contraception, has just blogged a bombshell. I love her questioning spirit, though, and think she is exceptionally resilient.

Also, here's a just-published New York Times article on her journey from Quiverfuller to independent single mom: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/09/us/09beliefs.html .

[Thread title & original post edited to protect interests of minors]

[Crackedeggs]

she says in that article, towards the end, that " her husband raped her, but he is still a good father" and goes on to discuss the paradox of that and how she hates it.

Sorry, no paradox. He will convey those attitudes to his children. As long as he has them, he can't be a good father.

[Juliakitty]

Wow, I read her entire blog last year because I thought her life was so fascinating, but then she started mostly talking fluff, so I forgot about it. I'm amazed she blogged about that, although not surprised it happened. She is an impressive person.

[silvia]

Yeah, I admire her not just for having the chutzpah to blog about it (you know she's going to catch flak from his family and others), but, more broadly, for having the courage to admit she was dead wrong about a lifestyle she was already incredibly entrenched in--especially given that she was receiving so much validation for being one of the public faces of the movement. It would've been a lot easier, in some ways, for her to "keep sweet" and keep pumping out kids and evangelical-firebrand books. Her commitment to truth is inspiring.

[fundyfunland]

Having been the victim of a rape in late teens, I'm generally not one to give some slack to the rapists. However, the rapes occurred in the context of a patriachal marriage. According to the NYT article, both Bethany & her ex now attend very liberal churches, and are anti-NFP. He may have changed his stance on power & women having left the patriarchy movement. But....I could be wrong.

Either way, seems they're both pretty much at peace with their choices (religiously) now, which is really nice to see.

[Guest Anonymous]

I kind of buy that he could have changed, even if he was a patriarchal asshole during the marriage.

[dormouse]

I cried reading her article. I was the victim of marital rape from ages 18 to 25. Well, he was not religious and we were not married, just shacking up, but it is more common than being married where I live, so I'll still call it that. And we owned a duplex together, so this was also a big commitment. I was afraid to break free and have to sell the house and pay a penalty to the bank, so I endured the rape and the psychological violence (food servings controlled so I don't get fat, not allowed to wear makeup or shave my legs because it meant I was going to cheat on him). I thought I had no choice because he was my partner. That no one would believe me. We lived right in front of a police station, so I could have just crossed the street while walking the dog and denounced him a hundred times, but I didn't know it was a crime when done in a marital situation. I tried to tell my grandmother about the abuse, but apparently it was my fault because: "You know you're not easy and you have a temper sometimes. He's so reasonable and calm, it's normal that he has to shake you a little sometimes." The abuse stopped when I finally told my dad. Everything. Including the rape part. It's hard for a daughter to say all these details to a dad. But I had to. I had waited all these years cause I didn't want to be a burden to my family. But my dad was able to make the abuse stop, my ex bought my half of the house, and even if I got way less money than I was entitled to, he's now out of my life for good.

[Rosa]

Dormouse, I'm so sorry that happened to you and so glad you got out.

I actually do think the sheltered young fundy men who rape their wives are among the educable, changeable abusers/rapists - how would they have any understanding of consent? The way they were taught right and wrong in a way that makes beating children and raping wives A-OK, and unlearning that is going to be long and messy. But it's possible. Redheadedskeptic's story, where she left and he stayed in the system and got another submissive wife is probably more common, though.

[Pearl]

she says in that article, towards the end, that " her husband raped her, but he is still a good father" and goes on to discuss the paradox of that and how she hates it.

I think she has to say this/believe this otherwise she'll go crazy. It's not that easy to get sole custody of the kids and if the abused spouse can think "well, he seems to only abuse me...." it probably makes it a little easier to live with.

OR she might have written that on her blog because she doesn't want to be accused of alienating her children from their father (by their dad) and maybe having custody issues because of it.

Now, granted I am going by the quote. I can't read the blog post - it would be too triggering for me.

[silvia]

dormouse, that is heartbreaking! I'm so sorry.

I hope Bethany's honesty helps convince other young women to confront the abuse they're facing -- which can be very real, even if it occurs within the context of marriage. I do hope, along with some of the rest of you, that Sam can be rehabilitated. As Bethany has indicated, he doesn't seem evil through and through; he probably has a myriad of psychological issues (he, too, was raised in a fundie home) that may have contributed to his bad behavior.

[raineymott]

I can see the paradox. I think saying because her husband raped her means he is ALL bad is black-and-white thinking, which makes the paradoxes hard (for those of us coming from that kind of background) to accept.

Right now it's really difficult for me to accept there's anything good in my father, because what he did/is doing hurts too much. I'm sure someday I'll be able to find the good in him and accept the paradox that while he was a lousy father, he was a good _______.

[DomWackTroll]

TMI clarification from Bethany.

http://bethanypatchin.blogspot.com/2011 ... uthas.html

I'll be honest, I just don't know what to think of this. It's either rape or it isn't, and if it's rape she should be alerting the authorities and suing for full custody. It's like she's saying, "Yeah, it was rape, but not rape-y enough to ruin his life over it or anything."

I can't imagine these posts will stay up for long. Won't Sam get his lawyer on this?

[GenerationCedarchip]

TMI clarification from Bethany.

http://bethanypatchin.blogspot.com/2011 ... uthas.html

I'll be honest, I just don't know what to think of this. It's either rape or it isn't, and if it's rape she should be alerting the authorities and suing for full custody. It's like she's saying, "Yeah, it was rape, but not rape-y enough to ruin his life over it or anything."

I can't imagine these posts will stay up for long. Won't Sam get his lawyer on this?

Reading that, I really don't know what to think either. It's one great big mixed message and I'm not sure she's even reached a point where she's certain that it was rape or not. To those of us outside the lifestyle, that might sound odd(not to mention really disturbing) but in some corners of fundie-world, you are considered to be consenting to any and all sex with your husband once you take those marriage vows. Years of that teaching would seriously mess with your perceptions.

[masagoroll]

Reading that, I really don't know what to think either. It's one great big mixed message and I'm not sure she's even reached a point where she's certain that it was rape or not. To those of us outside the lifestyle, that might sound odd(not to mention really disturbing) but in some corners of fundie-world, you are considered to be consenting to any and all sex with your husband once you take those marriage vows. Years of that teaching would seriously mess with your perceptions.

She said, "No" "Stop" "I don't like it." How is that sounding like she's not sure it was rape?

ETA: A lot of Christian churches DO kind of teach that there is an "obligatory aspect" to sex like that asshole pressured her by saying. It comes from 1 Corinthians 7:2-5

"2. Since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

3. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.

4. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

5. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

[Deleted03]

She said, "No" "Stop" "I don't like it." How is that sounding like she's not sure it was rape?

ETA: A lot of Christian churches DO kind of teach that there is an "obligatory aspect" to sex like that asshole pressured her by saying. It comes from 1 Corinthians 7:2-5

"2. Since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

3. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.

4. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

5. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

I read it as she's sure it's rape but she does not want to have him associated with the crazy rapist that assaults you while raping you. Because it's so much better to be a manipulative bastard who rapes you and makes you feel bad for not wanting it in the first place while asking you to shut up about it. Yes it's a complicated truth!

I think that he can still be a good dad and be someone who thinks he owns the women he's with. He can be very attentive to his kids needs and spend time with them. Maybe he'll impart them with bad values but at the same times if that's the level of judgment then many parents are bad parents because they give very bad esteem to their kids while trying their best.

Is he a good human being (based on what he did?) I don't think so.

I think it's very frustrating when a woman divorces and the husband who used to never do a thing for the kids or used to emotionally abuse her or even physically abuse her get the kids. But I also think that he deserves a chance as a single dad to get his act together as long as he's not continuing abuse towards his wife or that he abuses his kids. Sometimes they just go on abusing and then it's wrong.

[masagoroll]

I read it as she's sure it's rape but she does not want to have him associated with the crazy rapist that assaults you while raping you. Because it's so much better to be a manipulative bastard who rapes you and makes you feel bad for not wanting it in the first place while asking you to shut up about it. Yes it's a complicated truth!

I think that he can still be a good dad and be someone who thinks he owns the women he's with. He can be very attentive to his kids needs and spend time with them. Maybe he'll impart them with bad values but at the same times if that's the level of judgment then many parents are bad parents because they give very bad esteem to their kids while trying their best.

Is he a good human being (based on what he did?) I don't think so.

I think it's very frustrating when a woman divorces and the husband who used to never do a thing for the kids or used to emotionally abuse her or even physically abuse her get the kids. But I also think that he deserves a chance as a single dad to get his act together as long as he's not continuing abuse towards his wife or that he abuses his kids. Sometimes they just go on abusing and then it's wrong.

Yeah, after I wrote that comment, I realized what you and the previous posters were saying--it's like she IS saying it was rape, but she wants to kind of make excuses for him at the same time.

[aerynoctober]

This is why I so desperately hate religion. You put a young man in a belief system where he's taught from birth that he'll be the leader of his home. Prophet, priest, and king. Answerable only to Gawd, and since Gawd exists only in religious people's small minds, that pretty much means his future home is his own tiny fiefdom and ONLY his own personal sense of right and wrong is going to matter. Then, when he hits puberty, you tell him NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!! WAIT FOR YOUR WIFE!! DON'T EVEN MASTURBATE! DON'T LOOK AT PORN, DON'T READ BOOKS ABOUT SEX, DON'T LEARN ANYTHING AT ALL! WAIT. FOR. YOUR. WIFE. SHEEEEEEE WILL FULFILL 100% OF YOUR NEEDS. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE YOU ARE THE PROPHET PRIEST KING IN YOUR HOME! SHE WILL SUBMIT TO YOU!!

Bethany and Sam met after she wrote an article about how she wasn't going to kiss until she was married. Further, they used a marriage ceremony from one of the books of common prayer (if I'm remembering her Boundless follow-ups correctly, and I'm 99% sure I am). One of the old ones that includes "obey" and marriage being about the creation of children.

How in the world is this kind of system NOT supposed to create marital rapist husbands and victim wives?

Assuming she's telling the whole truth, and I have no reason to believe she's not, they're both victims. She's a bigger one, but he is, too. They both attend liberal churches now (his has a female priest) so maybe they've both really beaten the system that made them into what they were.

Any minute now I'm going to start getting the screeching about how rapists never change, I'm anti-woman, blah blah. Bring it on. My knee is injured and I have nothing better to do tonight than sit here and have internet cat fights.

[treemom]

I think everyone gets to decide how they feel about their rape and their rapists.

I get a lot of flak for allowing my abusive, mentally ill parents access to my son. However, the people they are now are not the people they were then. And they can abuse their child and not abuse their grandchild.

Just like you can rape a woman and then go on to never, ever rape or abuse another person for the rest of their life. I am not a rape apologist...I just think those who were raped get a whole bunch more say in how they feel about it than we do.

[Olivia]

This is why I so desperately hate religion. You put a young man in a belief system where he's taught from birth that he'll be the leader of his home. Prophet, priest, and king. Answerable only to Gawd, and since Gawd exists only in religious people's small minds, that pretty much means his future home is his own tiny fiefdom and ONLY his own personal sense of right and wrong is going to matter. Then, when he hits puberty, you tell him NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!! WAIT FOR YOUR WIFE!! DON'T EVEN MASTURBATE! DON'T LOOK AT PORN, DON'T READ BOOKS ABOUT SEX, DON'T LEARN ANYTHING AT ALL! WAIT. FOR. YOUR. WIFE. SHEEEEEEE WILL FULFILL 100% OF YOUR NEEDS. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE YOU ARE THE PROPHET PRIEST KING IN YOUR HOME! SHE WILL SUBMIT TO YOU!!

Yeah, it sucks that all religions teach this, doesn't it?

This isn't necessarily even what's taught in all parts of fundie-world. I think I would have noticed. And whatever twisted teaching someone grows up with, it doesn't negate their moral responsibilities.

I feel for her. I don't think she has a duty or, for that matter, a reason to try and prosecute him for the rape now; I think it'd be pretty unsuccessful at this point, and would just harm the relationship she unfortunately has to have with him as the father of her children. I agree with Treemom that it's her decision.

I do think, though, it takes something f-ed up in a man's head to force the woman he loves - or any woman at all - regardless of what level of privilege he's grown up with.

[liltwinstar]

Aeryn, I think you're right about both of them being victims. Men (and women too) are told over and over that as soon as you're married you can have sex whenever and however you want to - and that is not true. Fundies don't seem to think there's anything important about sexual compatibility - that men are supposed to pursue and women are supposed to submit, and that's that. But when you have two people in a sexual relationship, you have two different sex drives, two different sets of expectations - and when you don't even know what those things are for yourself, how in the world are you supposed to communicate those things to your partner? When the only self-control you know is "don't do it until the wedding night" that sends a terrible message to young people about how sex is to work in a relationship.

The fundie paradigm sets men up to be rapists. It tells them that once they have a woman, they own her and she is *required* to submit to him, no matter what. So of course some men end up raping their wives - they think it's their right.

[Alecto]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I completely disagree with her publicly calling her ex-husband a rapist when there has not been any kind of police action or conviction. Her children are going to be old enough one day to google their parents, and then what happens? They see their mother calling their father a rapist. The father could VERY easily take her to court over this and get a change of custody. Either way, this accusation is going to significantly damage her children. If she wanted to express her feelings, she should have kept this to a private diary or a therapist. No child needs to see their parents unsubstantiated dirty laundry.

[hoipolloi]

Credit to Bethany for speaking out, both on her blog & for the "record" in the NYT. She's not the only fundie wife to report such abuse, after the fact.

Bethany's account of her experience with Sam reminded me of a much worse example, that of former Bush nominee/appointee David Hager, as described in The Nation a few years ago (http://www.thenation.com/article/dr-hag ... ily-values).

[aerynoctober]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I completely disagree with her publicly calling her ex-husband a rapist when there has not been any kind of police action or conviction. Her children are going to be old enough one day to google their parents, and then what happens? They see their mother calling their father a rapist. The father could VERY easily take her to court over this and get a change of custody. Either way, this accusation is going to significantly damage her children. If she wanted to express her feelings, she should have kept this to a private diary or a therapist. No child needs to see their parents unsubstantiated dirty laundry.

You make good points. Sam Torode's sister turned up on the old board, so his family clearly Googles him at least occasionally.

Further, I think he has zero chance of remarrying unless he sues her for full custody now. If he says nothing and does nothing, it's as good as an admission that her version of events is the truth. If his position is that she's lying/disturbed/mistaken, then he needs to remove his minor children from such a person's care. In the eyes of future partners, he's either a rapist or a shitty father who lets his kids spend most of their time with a crazy/disturbed/lying person while doing nothing to protect them.

This is likely going to turn into the kind of drama that never dies...and Google is forever. Even if she deleted them now, it's too late.

[DamnPrecious]

:angry-screaming: Words fail me.

[DomWackTroll]

I'm with Alecto. I just do not think she is handling this in a healthy, responsible way.