I'm thinking about going to Forthys church 4 Mass on Sunday

[nokidsmom]

Isn't this the church Hansen the spy from the FBI went to?

I think it is.

[alysee]

I knew it was supposed to be the "real body of Christ" that being said before the priest handed it out he hammered it home everyday we went to Mass.

[NurseNell]

I had NO idea as I'd pretend potato chips were the wafers. I was evilly irreverent even then... :twisted:

Potato chips?!!!! You use white necco wafers silly girl. ;)

[faeriequeene]

I had my first communion there, in 1994. It's a very traditional Catholic church. My mass was in English, but all the songs were in Latin. Even back then I was confused.

[Didi]

I leave super near there, so I'd go with you ;-)

ETA - my mom went to Catholic elementary and they went to mass and stuff until she was in high school. But still, several years back when I was thinking about joining the Catholic Church she insisted they don't believe in transubstantiation, they don't believe "The Gospel", and something else... and I was like "Mama, you grew up Catholic, how did you not know this??" "Well, they didn't believe in transubstantiation in the 60's and 70's" wtf, mama, wtf. ;-)

[Nothing2CHere]

Potato chips?!!!! You use white necco wafers silly girl. ;)

Oh, we used to "play" communion with potato chips, too. They were easier to get than white necco wafers.

So, mrs, did you go? How was it?

This past summer my husband and I went to his cousin's wedding. It was out of town at the Catholic church the bride grew up in. I was dumbfounded to see that not only did this church still have a communion rail, but that they STILL USED IT. I had never in 36 years of being a Catholic received communion at a communion rail, I was almost debating skipping communion because I wasn't sure what to do. Other than that, the rest of the wedding mass was pretty run-of-the-mill what I was used to.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Oh, we used to "play" communion with potato chips, too. They were easier to get than white necco wafers.

So, mrs, did you go? How was it?

This past summer my husband and I went to his cousin's wedding. It was out of town at the Catholic church the bride grew up in. I was dumbfounded to see that not only did this church still have a communion rail, but that they STILL USED IT. I had never in 36 years of being a Catholic received communion at a communion rail, I was almost debating skipping communion because I wasn't sure what to do. Other than that, the rest of the wedding mass was pretty run-of-the-mill what I was used to.

The last Catholic wedding I went to was... insanely uncomfortable. My poor friend. Her INLAWS insisted on this church, very conservative, and everyone had to cover their shoulders (OK FINE! no big! most Catholic churches say that and the bridesmaids just wear shawls) but then the "rule" was as well, that the bride had to wear LONG sleeves her dress couldn't have any color but white.... My poor friend spent MONTHS trying to find just A dress.

And the priest's homily was the exact opposite of marriage. He spent a half hour bemoaning the fact that nobody entered the priesthood or convents anymore and if ANY OF US were considering it to talk to him afterwards. The picture of my friends first married kiss (she had kissed him before marriage!) is hysterical. She's kissing her (now ex-) husband and the priest has this GLOWER on his face.

[Black Aliss]

Isn't this the church Hansen the spy from the FBI went to?

And Louis Freeh. And Justice Scalia. From the NY Times:

The parish is known for its Washington luminaries — Justice Antonin Scalia of the Supreme Court is a member — as well as its spiritual ardor. Mass is offered in Latin every Sunday at noon — most parishes have Mass only in English — and each Wednesday parishioners take turns praying nonstop for 24 hours before a consecrated communion wafer, a demanding practice known as Eucharistic adoration.

ETA a good description of the parish http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/101 ... h-opus-dei

[fakepigtails73]

Last time I saw a communion rail was at a TLM Latin Mass...I was curious as to what a TLM mass entailed; I was baptised Catholic as a baby and I can count on two hands the # of times I went to mass in 20 years (and these were mostly Christmas Eve services, weddings and funerals). It was not a SSPX mass.

At the Latin mass I didn't receive communion, I don't believe in it and didn't do fasting and confession beforehand so... I do admit that the Latin mass has a "reverence" that I seldom saw in OF vernacular services. 90% of women were in skirts and wore mantillas. The incense smelled bad and there was way too much. While vocations in priesthood and sisterhood is down in most dioceses, vocations are up in those that have many TLM services (I read that in the Catholic Register a while ago, I wish that I could quote it now, yes I was surprised)...

A lot of Traditionnal Catholics are a weird bunch (at least those in the SSPX). Those I know hate liberal democracies and think that everything would be hunky-dory if we'd all live under a monarchy (when I replied that Canada's head of state is Elizabeth II they say that although they respect her, their idea of monarchy is a catholic theocracy under a benevolent catholic king. Urgh.) When they don't wish for a return to a Louis XIV their next best thing is Spain under Franco, whom they call "a great example of Catholic leadership. (barf bucket please).They are obsessed with Fatima's Marian apparitions and believe that Russia must be consecrated to Mary (??). They do rosaries every evening with their family, friday is no meat day (but fish is OK, in my head fish is meat but whatever), to them Catholics are persecuted and everything was soooo much better before Vatican II. At least those that I know value higher education, even for their daughters...

[fluttershies]

From what I understand, (and its been YEARS since my last instruction in any kind of Catholic theology) the reason that non Catholics cannot take communion (with the exception of I think Eastern Orthodox and some Anglicans ) is because Catholics believe that in transubstantiation - that the wine and wafer turn into the actual body and blood of Jesus. Most other Christian denominations view it as symbolic as the "body" is like more like, its a dinner and they're all partaking- (this is my UNDERSTANDING and as someone who was raised Catholic but never understood Christianity at ALL, period ) like, they're all having dinner and stating that "we are part of a family here" and the "body" part of it is meant as like the "body" of Christianity or the church.

My Catholic mother always allowed us to take communion at the Protestant or Baptist church when we went (my dad played the organ and so he'd get odd jobs sometimes in the summer when the local Baptist church's organist would go on vacation). But then again, she also doesn't believe in transubstantiation either, she calls it "bad theology". O_O (she's the most CYNICAL Catholic I've ever met).

I think in most Protestant churches, communion is more a symbol of Jesus' sacrifice than anything else. Agape feasts seem to be like what you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape_feas ... ristianity

As an Anglican, my approach is the same as John Donne's:

He was the Word that spake it; He took the bread and brake it; and what that Word did make it; I do believe and take it.

The mechanics of it don't matter to me particularly; I do not believe in a chance of substance but in a substantial change, and that it was created to be a mystery and I am content (and even want) for it to remain a mystery. I do believe that the bread and wine are more than just symbolic though.

[3 is enough]

fakepigtails73, you're in Quebec. The Catholic Church there had to adapt in response to the mass defection of the Quebecois. I remember that they had altar girls in the early 70's, they have communal confession twice a year ( Christmas and Easter). They also relaxed the rules about no meat on Fridays during Lent. And, back in 1969, after the birth of her 5th child, my mother went to the priest and told him she was going to use birth control pills. He told her to follow her conscience!

All of this (except for the altar girls) would be unheard of in US parishes even today, let alone 40 years ago.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I think in most Protestant churches, communion is more a symbol of Jesus' sacrifice than anything else. Agape feasts seem to be like what you're talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape_feas ... ristianity

As an Anglican, my approach is the same as John Donne's:

He was the Word that spake it; He took the bread and brake it; and what that Word did make it; I do believe and take it.

The mechanics of it don't matter to me particularly; I do not believe in a chance of substance but in a substantial change, and that it was created to be a mystery and I am content (and even want) for it to remain a mystery. I do believe that the bread and wine are more than just symbolic though.

Gotcha! I knew it was symbolic. But I wasn't sure of WHAT. :)

[Cran]

Just wanted to add some cents on Latin mass vs. not being in union with Rome:

There is a quite large community (the Pius-X-people) who are not in union with Rome, and there have been communities that celebrate the "old" mass (pre Vatican II) while having special permission for it (there's an own fraternity for that, Petrus-something). The current Pope gave quite recently, two years or so ago, for all priests permission to celebrate the mass in the old rite if they wanted to. Formerly, the local bishop had to give special permission.

On the other hand, no priest ever needed permission to celebrate the mass in LATIN, which is still considered the language of the church, but permission to celebrate in the OLD RITE, which has also the use of Latin, but also other characteristics (different texts, priest faces the altar, not the congregation, and so on).

On taking communion: The church doesn't want other people to take it, what each individual makes out of it is their own business. But I'd like to add that Catholics aren't per se seen as fit to receive, they have to be free from grave sin and in the right disposition, so confession might be required before they should receive. The custom that every member of the parish receives every Sunday is rather new (attendance at mass is required, but not receiving - that's only mandatory once a year).

Having been nerdy to my utmost desire, I have to add I'd totally attend that church, just for the hell of it! And wear stilettos.

ETA: Altar girls have been quite a topic among conservatives. The current rule is, they are technically allowed, but each priest can decide for himself if he wants girls to serve or not when he celebrates. In Germany, we started having altar girls very early on, and I have never met anybody who was upset about it.

[fakepigtails73]

fakepigtails73, you're in Quebec. The Catholic Church there had to adapt in response to the mass defection of the Quebecois. I remember that they had altar girls in the early 70's, they have communal confession twice a year ( Christmas and Easter). They also relaxed the rules about no meat on Fridays during Lent. And, back in 1969, after the birth of her 5th child, my mother went to the priest and told him she was going to use birth control pills. He told her to follow her conscience!

All of this (except for the altar girls) would be unheard of in US parishes even today, let alone 40 years ago.

Yup, things have changed in the QC Catholic church since the 60s! Yup, we have a lot of clergy members that are liberals. In the 70s there used to be what was called "gogo masses", masses with psychadelic music (!). My Mom has a friend that married a priest (he defrocked, then married as soon as he had the paper from Rome); they're still together after 40 yrs and 4 kids.

But then there was the interlude of Cardinal Marc Ouellet, the Archbishop of Québec City from 2003 to 2010...So orthodox, bordering on "ultramontain", he (almost) made the Cardinal of Montréal look like a liberal... Ouellet is back in Rome now; not that old either (around 60-65?), some say he has a chance at becoming the next pope. I don't believe that , as I have a hunch that the next pope could come from Latin America or Africa. But hey, what do I know! :P

I surprise myself as how much I know about the RCC, even though I'm not a believer! Must be because of my area of work and the RCC's influence on the socio-cultural aspects of Québec. Even if the # of churchgoers is almost non-existent compared to before 1967, we still feel its influence in more ways than one...

Sorry for being completely out of topic...

[fluttershies]

Just wanted to add some cents on Latin mass vs. not being in union with Rome:

There is a quite large community (the Pius-X-people) who are not in union with Rome, and there have been communities that celebrate the "old" mass (pre Vatican II) while having special permission for it (there's an own fraternity for that, Petrus-something). The current Pope gave quite recently, two years or so ago, for all priests permission to celebrate the mass in the old rite if they wanted to. Formerly, the local bishop had to give special permission.

On the other hand, no priest ever needed permission to celebrate the mass in LATIN, which is still considered the language of the church, but permission to celebrate in the OLD RITE, which has also the use of Latin, but also other characteristics (different texts, priest faces the altar, not the congregation, and so on).

On taking communion: The church doesn't want other people to take it, what each individual makes out of it is their own business. But I'd like to add that Catholics aren't per se seen as fit to receive, they have to be free from grave sin and in the right disposition, so confession might be required before they should receive. The custom that every member of the parish receives every Sunday is rather new (attendance at mass is required, but not receiving - that's only mandatory once a year).

Having been nerdy to my utmost desire, I have to add I'd totally attend that church, just for the hell of it! And wear stilettos.

ETA: Altar girls have been quite a topic among conservatives. The current rule is, they are technically allowed, but each priest can decide for himself if he wants girls to serve or not when he celebrates. In Germany, we started having altar girls very early on, and I have never met anybody who was upset about it.

Thanks for the info, that's really interesting. Do most parishoners take communion in both kinds since Vatican II?

[Cran]

I don't think this is common. It is technically allowed, but not widely practised, and should only be practised in parishes that are "well-catechized" (probably small parishes who attend regularly), whatever that means.

The local Catholic university gives out bread AND wine, and it is widely done on Holy Thursday, too.

[fluttershies]

What's the reasoning behind only receiving bread? My ex-Catholic friend says it must be an issue of what to do with any leftover wine, but I was watching a documentary on Westminster Cathedral (the main Catholic cathedral in the UK, not to be confused with Westminster Abbey!) and they did bread and wine and simply returned any leftover wine to its container. Do the clergy receive in both kinds? /curious

[Cran]

The priest who celebrates is required to receive both bread and wine. While the leftover bread is put in the tabernacle and used at the next service or to take to the sick, the consecrated wine has to be drunk completely and won't be poured back into the container. The priest has to drink up or distribute it during mass. Reason: As the body of Christ (the consecrated wine) must be treated with utmost respect, it is unthinkable to mix it with wine not consecrated, or pour it down the drain, or leave it standing about. And who would want to drink wine that has been locked up in the tabernacle for a week...

In Catholic belief, Christ cannot be separated in the Eucharist (part of it in the bread, part of it in the wine), no matter what you receive, you receive the one and wholeChrist, so it is not necessary to receive the wine, too.

The custom to give out only bread stems mostly from custom and practical reasons - it is much harder to give out liquids to a large congregation than breads (one chalice - hygiene? several small cups - symbolism lost?, duration of service).

[Hane]

Re fake communion: My buds and I had it down. We flattened slices of white bread and punched out "hosts" with a soda bottle cap, and knelt on the neighbor's picnic table bench to "receive" from my friend's big sister, who was in first grade. When we learned about transubstantiation, we figured this game was blasphemous and stopped.

I spent 50+ years trying my damnedest to believe in transubstantiation, the virgin birth, the resurrection, and miracles, and finally gave up five years ago.

[Hane]

A little OT: my family once wondered how an alcoholic priest would deal with having to drink the consecrated wine. Does anyone know whether non-alcoholic wine is ever allowed? Given a recent uproar that occurred when someone suggested gluten-free hosts for a child with celiac disease, I'd suspect not. :(

[ilovetchotchkes]

The priest who celebrates is required to receive both bread and wine. While the leftover bread is put in the tabernacle and used at the next service or to take to the sick, the consecrated wine has to be drunk completely and won't be poured back into the container. The priest has to drink up or distribute it during mass. Reason: As the body of Christ (the consecrated wine) must be treated with utmost respect, it is unthinkable to mix it with wine not consecrated, or pour it down the drain, or leave it standing about. And who would want to drink wine that has been locked up in the tabernacle for a week...

In Catholic belief, Christ cannot be separated in the Eucharist (part of it in the bread, part of it in the wine), no matter what you receive, you receive the one and wholeChrist, so it is not necessary to receive the wine, too.

The custom to give out only bread stems mostly from custom and practical reasons - it is much harder to give out liquids to a large congregation than breads (one chalice - hygiene? several small cups - symbolism lost?, duration of service).

In Catholic churches aren't there special sinks that pour right into the ground too so that when they rinse out the cups it doesn't go into the sewer system?

[Cran]

In Catholic churches aren't there special sinks that pour right into the ground too so that when they rinse out the cups it doesn't go into the sewer system?

I have never seen this, and think it is rather unnecessary. The chalice the wine was poured into is drunken up, then water is poured in it while still at the altar, and the priest swirls it a few times and then drinks the water with the rest of the wine, so the chalice is usually washed in the normal way. They are not worried about molecules, the rule is: If bread and wine loose the appearance of being bread and wine (miniscule crumbs, completely diluted in water), it ceases to be sacrosanct.

Things like the cotton balls oil is applied with during confirmation and similar stuff is usually burned.

[silverspoons]

Re fake communion: My buds and I had it down. We flattened slices of white bread and punched out "hosts" with a soda bottle cap, and knelt on the neighbor's picnic table bench to "receive" from my friend's big sister, who was in first grade. When we learned about transubstantiation, we figured this game was blasphemous and stopped.

I spent 50+ years trying my damnedest to believe in transubstantiation, the virgin birth, the resurrection, and miracles, and finally gave up five years ago.

I thought we were the only ones that did this! My only difference is I was usually the priest because most of my friends were Jewish. My mom used to decorate the altar and do the flowers so I spent alot fo time in the empty church with my friends. We first used oyster crackers, then we flattened out bread, then my friend actually found the unblessed wafers in these huge bags in the storage room(I still feel guilty about this).

[QAF_Rocks]

The custom that every member of the parish receives every Sunday is rather new (attendance at mass is required, but not receiving - that's only mandatory once a year).

Is that new? It's happened in every Catholic church I've been to, and it seemed to be the custom in the church my boyfriend grew up in. Not that people would glare at you if you didn't go up, but if you were of the right age, you were expected to.

[NurseNell]

In Catholic churches aren't there special sinks that pour right into the ground too so that when they rinse out the cups it doesn't go into the sewer system?

Yes.