Grandduggar # 3 on the way? Pictures.

[Sinister Rouge]

You're really committing a big fallacy here by trivializing this issue. Just because worse forms of sexism exist doesn't mean that this form is harmless. Also, fighting more than one form is absolutely and perfectly possible, so you don't have to choose just one. It's not like caring about this issue means we can't also care about other issues that you deem more important. On top of that, fighting one form of sexism helps to fight the other forms, so it's beneficial no matter what. You're just completely wrong to trivialize this.

As Marilyn Frye wrote, "we participate in our own erasure."

[CC3]

There is no misconception on my part. I happened to feel light-hearted when I wrote my first two posts. I know when to chose my battles in life. I know the sexes are equal. There are bullies from both sexes when they have some power. I'm not going to comment any more tonight. I'm too tired.

I really come on here to check out the Duggars. I thought Anna was pregnant awhile back. Now it looks like it is confirmed.

[Aurora]

Yes - men - not guys or boys!

You automatically give them the respect of an adult title - even as an enemy!

That is exactly our point.

If we are just girls to them, or they have to think whether to call us girls or women, then the playing field is not equal.[/quote

I don't see men as the enemy. I only see men who belittle women with sexist terms as the enemy. I also consider myself a women not a girl and have never called men guys or boys. My point was I was sympathizing with reds for her situation wishing to feel young again even if her wording wasn't the best. I am not looking for a fight. Everyone knows when they are being put down whether at work, school, or on a forum.

Well, you picked the word "fight". I followed up on that.

[JenniferJuniper]

I really come on here to check out the Duggars. I thought Anna was pregnant awhile back. Now it looks like it is confirmed.

Yes. I wonder if the birth announcement will be a accompanied by a 100 gun salute if it's a little man or a 21 gun salute if it's just a girl.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I don't know. I can see what you guys are saying about "girl" being used in a derogatory manner. But to basically say that by using it at all we are effectively sticking our fingers in our ears, saying "la la la" and perpetuating the infantalization of women? I am going to keep calling Bunco Girls' Night. My daughter and I will keep having times when we tell the guys it's "girls only". I call my kids small people, and little (last names). I say dude all the time. And my daughter has a name that was listed as a cutesie one, even though that wasn't my intention. My name would probably be considered cutesie too, but I love it. It all seems silly to me. (Ducking my head as I prepare to get yelled at.)

[Mama Mia]

Maybe I missed it .. but has anyone else noticed that saying "boy" for adult males has become very common ? I am pretty old, and when I was young you would hear girl, woman, chick, lady for adult ( particular young adult ) females. You would hear man, dude or guy for an adult male -- but you wouldn't say "boy" for a male who was no longer in his teens. Now I notice women (and men ) use "boy" or "boys" for males well into adulthood, and even middle age.

Wonder what that means ( if anything )

[JenniferJuniper]

Maybe I missed it .. but has anyone else noticed that saying "boy" for adult males has become very common ?

Not in a professional environment, no, can't say that I've ever noticed that.

I'm in about 5 different insurance or law offices each month. I still hear "When you arrive, check in with the girl at the front desk" or "Mary's the girl with the red hair down on the fourth floor in the cube by the elevator". Or "I'll ask one of the girls to order up some boxed lunches". But, no, I never hear anyone referred to as “the boyâ€. Even when referring to those who work in executive assistant level positions.

[Guest LilaFowler]

Where was it confirmed that Anna is pregnant?

[luv2laugh]

Where was it confirmed that Anna is pregnant?

It wasn't confirmed. People have just been speculating from recent pictures compared to earlier in the year.

[freejoytoo]

Wow, I really didn't mean to cause an argument! Interesting discussion though.

Okay, this is my stance: I'm a young woman. I have no problem with my parents calling my (older) sister and I 'girls' because we are their girls. I also don't mind my friends calling me a girl because I call my male friends boys or guys, and we have 'girls' nights out' etc, but that's not the same as society perceiving me as a girl. That's when I have a problem because I am very sure they don't see my male friends of the same age as boys. The kind of thing I'm talking about is where you have a thirty-year-old woman at a desk at work and the manager is calling her a girl. She is a grown woman. What is wrong with thinking of yourself as a woman? I'm a young woman and I'm proud of it. It doesn't mean I can't muck about and do childish things anymore, it just means that I have matured physically and emotionally into a young adult. Why is that something to shy away from?

[reds]

CC3: Thank you for understanding my situation.

As for the other: I could make the arguement worse by telling you that i think my job title is just fine... I am a Draftsman. Not a draftsWoman or even a draftsPerson. I think alot of this is riduculous. And we have a grown bunch of "men" working in our shop that we refer to as boys or guys. Or by riduculous nicknames that they have given each other.

I have a friend who is a receptionist. To make her "feel better" about her job they reciently changed her title to "Director of First Impressions."

It is a title, you know when you hear the person's tone wher they feel you are on the sexist heirarchy, it should be done on an individual basis because everyone's perception and experiences are different.

[kaetrin]

My family has two sets of female children because they had three, stopped for seven years, joined ATI and had four more. So we always referred to the "big girls" and the "little girls" when we needed to differentiate by group. In recent years, we are all making a concerted effort not to say "little girls" because the "little girls" are now aged 15-21 - we've compromised with "the girls" for the [formerly] "little" girls. It also becomes more and more natural to refer to them individually by name, especially as they leave home etc. and thus don't usually need a collective reference.

Back on topic, sort of: Gothard has some weird quirks about this kind of terminology. Like, you shouldn't call your children "kids" because it's demeaning to refer to them like baby goats. But true to his 1950s sexist attitude, he says that young men shouldn't be called "guys" or "boys" but apparently has no problem with young women being called "girls." He himself always says "young men" or, laughably, "fellows" when an ordinary person would say "guys." I think he usually also says "young ladies" but I don't remember the negativity about saying "girls" that he applies to saying "boys."

It's actually quite interesting, because he insists that teenagers are morally adults and ought to have serious responsibilities and goals, and his own terminology tends to reflect this to some degree. But again, and this may be only my memory bias, I remember explicit prohibitions against saying "guys" or "boys" or "kids" but I don't remember any against saying "girls."

[Witsec5]

I think I have earned the right to be called a woman and so have the Duggar women. Please correct me if I call these adult women girls in the future which I might do from force of habit. Life has given the Duggar women a bad hand and it will require the maturity of a woman (and not a girl) for them to bear up under the weight. J'Chelle, however, has not grown up and is still a girl.

[liltwinstar]

I try really hard to refer to myself as a woman and to refer to the adult women around me as women as well, not girls. I think that's only appropriate in a professional setting. That said, if other women want to have "girl's nights" or whatever, that's up to them. But at work, it should be women.

Does anyone else get super annoyed by being called "Miss"?? I'm of the opinion that Ma'am is the companion to Sir, and it gets me all riled up when I'm called Miss. I find it's usually young men (say, in the 16-25 year old range) who use Miss rather than Ma'am, and I'm working up the urge to call them on it. If you're going to call my husband Sir, you better call me Ma'am.

[CanadianHippie]

I try really hard to refer to myself as a woman and to refer to the adult women around me as women as well, not girls. I think that's only appropriate in a professional setting. That said, if other women want to have "girl's nights" or whatever, that's up to them. But at work, it should be women.

Does anyone else get super annoyed by being called "Miss"?? I'm of the opinion that Ma'am is the companion to Sir, and it gets me all riled up when I'm called Miss. I find it's usually young men (say, in the 16-25 year old range) who use Miss rather than Ma'am, and I'm working up the urge to call them on it. If you're going to call my husband Sir, you better call me Ma'am.

I really don't like being called Miss., for me it's either Ma'am or Ms., preferably by my name (but, you know, not everyone is going to know my name). I'm guessing it's mostly young men because they fall into the category of being taught to call adult females Miss, Miss. Firstname, or Miss. Lastname.

I've only encountered one person who called me Ma'am and he actually gave me a bad vibe... It wasn't the Ma'am though, just him.

[bananacat]

Maybe I missed it .. but has anyone else noticed that saying "boy" for adult males has become very common ? I am pretty old, and when I was young you would hear girl, woman, chick, lady for adult ( particular young adult ) females. You would hear man, dude or guy for an adult male -- but you wouldn't say "boy" for a male who was no longer in his teens. Now I notice women (and men ) use "boy" or "boys" for males well into adulthood, and even middle age.

Wonder what that means ( if anything )

I'm young and I have never heard men called "boys", except in an ironic or derogatory way, so it's certainly not a common thing. The double standard is still very strong. Sometimes much older people will refer to male college students as boys, in the same way that people generally say "college kids" rather than "college students", but even that is pretty rare.

[apple1]

Just a random fact-

The admittedly fundy Bob Jones University consistently refers to female students as "women".

It was notable to me, as it was the first time in my life that I was called a woman.

(signed - a former student)

[Spartan89]

I'm young and I have never heard men called "boys", except in an ironic or derogatory way, so it's certainly not a common thing. The double standard is still very strong. Sometimes much older people will refer to male college students as boys, in the same way that people generally say "college kids" rather than "college students", but even that is pretty rare.

Maybe it's a locational thing, because my experience is so much the opposite. I, and most of my other female friends, have always referred to our male friends as "the boys". If somebody called them "the men" it would sound so ridiculous that I would probably laugh. If we were in a professional environment it would be different, and I would use "men" and "women". To me, this is an issue of formality rather than subtle sexism.

[bananacat]

Maybe it's a locational thing, because my experience is so much the opposite. I, and most of my other female friends, have always referred to our male friends as "the boys". If somebody called them "the men" it would sound so ridiculous that I would probably laugh. If we were in a professional environment it would be different, and I would use "men" and "women". To me, this is an issue of formality rather than subtle sexism.

It's an issue of both formality AND sexism because there is frequently a double standard. I don't have a problem with the terms girlfriend and boyfriend, or "girls night out" and "boys night out". The problem is when it is use inconsistently, where women are girls and men are men. And if everyone in your professional environment consistently used women and men, then you're lucky because that's not the case for most of us.

[Spartan89]

It's an issue of both formality AND sexism because there is frequently a double standard. I don't have a problem with the terms girlfriend and boyfriend, or "girls night out" and "boys night out". The problem is when it is use inconsistently, where women are girls and men are men. And if everyone in your professional environment consistently used women and men, then you're lucky because that's not the case for most of us.

I understand that it could be an issue of both formality and sexism, but that just hasn't been my experience. I cannot recall ever being referred to as a girl when the boys around me were called men. I am in full support of people speaking up if they don't like the way others are referring to them. However, I personally don't feel that I need to make an issue out of being called a girl because I've never noticed any inequality.

[slickcat79]

Maybe it's a locational thing, because my experience is so much the opposite. I, and most of my other female friends, have always referred to our male friends as "the boys". If somebody called them "the men" it would sound so ridiculous that I would probably laugh. If we were in a professional environment it would be different, and I would use "men" and "women". To me, this is an issue of formality rather than subtle sexism.

My friends and I do that too. I usually use boy and girl equally in informal settings, although it may have actually started as a result of being called girls so often. It's almost joking, really, and I do consider that separate from a professional setting.

I am an administrative assistant and the only woman in my group at my job with an engineering company. I think it's the instinct of my managers and co-workers to say "girl" when referencing me, but they also often correct themselves to woman or lady. I also call them "my guys" when talking to other co-workers sometimes, but it really feels more natural to call them a group or crew rather than men. It's probably not strictly appropriate to use boy or girl when referring to adults, but I find that to be pretty common among people I know in social situations.

[AudreyE]

It's an issue of both formality AND sexism because there is frequently a double standard. I don't have a problem with the terms girlfriend and boyfriend, or "girls night out" and "boys night out". The problem is when it is use inconsistently, where women are girls and men are men. And if everyone in your professional environment consistently used women and men, then you're lucky because that's not the case for most of us.

Testify.

[Mama Mia]

In a professional setting wouldn't you use the person's name, or title ? I don't know how often it would come up that someone would say "girl" ( or woman or man or ... for that matter ).

Maybe if you were trying to describe who to talk to - like " There's a woman in the office next door who you can hand your paperwork too, she's the one with the brown hair" ... or something like that .. but it just doesn't seem like it generally would come up very often.

[TouchMeFall21]

This conversation has been so interesting to me. I head up an all-female department of four in my company, which is in a predominantly female (and notoriously cutthroat) industry. My team is all young--low 30's and under--and a mix of married and single women. We're pretty much always referred to communally (by other women) as "the girls;" to be honest, I'm as much at fault as anyone, as I often call the team "my girls" or offer to have "one of my girls" work on some project or another. I am going to make a conscious effort, starting tomorrow, not to do this any more.

I can't help but wonder if the girl/woman divide hinges on motherhood. Horrible, I know, but in my experience women who are my age, with my credentials but who have children at home are thought of as older, more mature, etc. (that said, they're also often derided as less reliable, less career-driven, etc. Double-edged sword. There is no winning, now is there?).

Incidentally, I always refer to my husband and his friends as "the boys." I haven't had enough experience with men in the workplace to know how I'd respond to that. So much food for thought!

[itsnikki05]

What's the big deal?? Girl, woman, female... whatever. I, personally, would rather be called Nikki over anything else.