Grandduggar # 3 on the way? Pictures.

[meda]

that is the beauty of the trades. It is all government mandated. If you are a apprentice, your wage is based on a percentage of what a journeyman makes. The journeyman rate is set by the company. Dont like the rate, find a company that will pay more. Men and women in the trades are paid equal. A company i use to work for, electrical, the first year apprentices we making more than what the office people were. Didnt matter if the apprentice was male or female and it also didnt matter who got called to work first, it was rotations.

In all times the companies would have to be competitive with each other to get the workers that they need. Lots of spying about what other companies are paying and keeping up so that they dont have more work than workers.

Looking at the stats here there is 8% of women in trades, 26% of all technical jobs are women's.

The wages for skilled trades are not government mandated unless you are working under a PLO (project labor agreement) that requires a certain wage to be paid by contractors working on government projects. It is true that a trades union and most companies are not going to invest the kind of money into training an apprentice that it takes to get to journeyman, and then turn around and not utilize that worker. However, who is getting accepted into the trades apprenticeship programs ? The bulk of apprentices are men, and it's still rare for a woman to make the jump to foreman from journeyman, which is the usual path for men in skilled trades. This is an older post, but it's still pretty on point as to a woman's experiences.

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2005/05/11 ... -trades-2/

8% women in trades is a pretty shitty rate of participation for jobs that are well paying and don't require a degree.

[reds]

Can we get some links to actual facts on reputable websites versus your thoughts on the subject?

http://www.womenbuildingfutures.com/

http://employment.alberta.ca/documents/ ... A_0505.pdf

http://www.tradesecrets.gov.ab.ca/index ... _trade.asp

Following are the Principles that guide the system:

Accessible

Individuals wishing to pursue a career in the designated trades and occupations have access to apprenticeship and industry training.

Funded by All

Apprentices, trainees, employers, and government contribute to the financial cost of training.

Industry-driven

Industry is responsible for setting the standards for training and certification, and for providing on-the-job training and work experience for apprentices and trainees.

Supported by Government

Government, with advice from industry, has a role in regulating apprenticeship training and helping individuals to acquire the skills needed to work in designated trades and occupations.

Collaborative

Apprenticeship and industry training is based on effective partnerships among stakeholders.

Integrated

Apprenticeship and industry training are options within the advanced learning system and part of lifelong learning.

[meda]

Looking at your links, I am making the assumption that you are Canadian and working in Alberta, which is having a huge (and unique) boom in trades jobs because of the oil fields. Do you really think this situation is applicable to the rest of north America, which is experiencing a huge slump in construction and very high unemployment rates in the trades?

[reds]

Looking at your links, I am making the assumption that you are Canadian and working in Alberta, which is having a huge (and unique) boom in trades jobs because of the oil fields. Do you really think this situation is applicable to the rest of north America, which is experiencing a huge slump in construction and very high unemployment rates in the trades?

I am in alberta, It is still in boom.. but the original question is why i dont care if i am a girl.. this is my background and how my opinion is based. Women can do anything. My opinion doesnt count less because i am canadian or albertan. This is a forum where everyone can express their views. My views are that women/girls/people can do what they want and there is no limits. If you are not getting paid the same as a male counterpart. Tell your boss you know and want it corrected. This can be fought on a person by person basis. If you want to get ahead, talk to your boss and haved them review your resume and tell you what they want you to acheive so they can promote you.

[Deleted03]

I think we'll never convince you red, but I say, have fun when you're reprimanded or sued for talking inappropriately to your co-workers or some who works for you.

[evenstar210]

This may be slightly OT by now, but for what it's worth:

I'm not sure who brought up marriage/motherhood as the rite of passage for becoming a "woman," but it's definitely prevalent in the Orthodox Jewish community (in my experience.) "Girls" remain "girls" until they get married, and then suddenly as soon as they pop out a kid they become "women" or "ladies."

So you have women in their early 20's referring to themselves and being referred to as "girls" and then, magically, as soon as they get married they're women.

It's not my age/life experience/maturity that makes me a woman, it's my marital status.

It's not even subtly sexist--it's blatantly sexist. And yes, I think I mind.

Thanks to FJ for making me think about that today.

[holierthanyou]

Damnit, I hate it when the crazies are Canadian. Makin' us all look bad...

[meda]

I am in alberta, It is still in boom.. but the original question is why i dont care if i am a girl.. this is my background and how my opinion is based. Women can do anything. My opinion doesnt count less because i am canadian or albertan. This is a forum where everyone can express their views. My views are that women/girls/people can do what they want and there is no limits. If you are not getting paid the same as a male counterpart. Tell your boss you know and want it corrected. This can be fought on a person by person basis. If you want to get ahead, talk to your boss and haved them review your resume and tell you what they want you to acheive so they can promote you.

And if you get fired for making waves at what may be the only trades job in your area (again, the universe is comprised of more than Alberta), what would the options be, in your opinion? Relocate? Give the foreman a blow job so he'll rehire/ give you decent shifts? Accept the lack of respect? All of these things And much worse I have heard from women in the trades. Just because you are in a boom cycle in a country with strong anti discrimination protections, does not mean that life is as rosy for everyone. A lot of women put up with a lot of ugly, abusive shit on the job site and openned the door for you to have opportunities you have. Pull your head out of your ass and look around you.

[Kitty]

I really don't like being called Miss., for me it's either Ma'am or Ms., preferably by my name (but, you know, not everyone is going to know my name). I'm guessing it's mostly young men because they fall into the category of being taught to call adult females Miss, Miss. Firstname, or Miss. Lastname.

I've only encountered one person who called me Ma'am and he actually gave me a bad vibe... It wasn't the Ma'am though, just him.

I don't get super annoyed by Miss, but it's probably an age thing and it wasn't too long ago that two of my science teachers in high school were calling me "Miss " It blows my mind whenever I get a letter or email addressed to "Ms. ," because it's weird knowing I'm old enough to be called Ms. Then again I could go by either one. It's a mindfuck, I tells ya.

I think we should do away with Miss/Ms. entirely. There is no reason to refer to all males as Mr. regardless of age and marital status, but refer to women using three different titles depending on age and marital status. Mrs. for all, like in French, where you're Madame once you're a certain age. French speakers are actually beginning to move away from Mademoiselle since it seems a bit condescending.

[freejoytoo]

I think what some women may be trying to say is that they feel overwhelmed. Perhaps the expectations on them are too high to juggle so many things at once. Perhaps they're not receiving enough help at home from their husband or enough understanding from their boss at work.

You don't see men saying they're overwhelmed by all the paths their lives could take.

I get that it's hard juggling parenthood and career (or that it can be, anyway) and that there is a lot of pressure to be doing it right, but what I am getting at the moment is this viewpoint of, "Oh, wasn't it just easier when our grandmothers were young and all we had to worry about was getting married." I think it's sad. I LIKE the fact that I'm not entirely sure where my life will go right now. Sure, it can be a little scary at times but I like the fact that I don't have to get married and have children. I like that I was able to go to university and get a degree in something I loved. There's still a lot of sexism but if this was the time when my grandmothers were young I would have been expected to be married with at least one child by now and I'm glad that's no longer the case. I don't like the fact that young women of my age seem to want to have their lives planned out for them.

As for the Mrs/Miss/Ms thing, I always put Ms and have done since I was about seventeen. A few months ago I signed up to do some volunteering in a primary school and had to fill in a CRB form. I put Ms and then got the forms handed back and said I had to do them again because 'Ms' implied that my name had changed. I had to write Miss on them and it made me angry.

[Esther]

Wow, what a thread!

I agree that referring to women as girls in the workplace is wrong and the symptom of a societal evil that goes far beyond 'but I don't mind!'. It's been used to infantilize women for generations and if you're old enough to work, you're probably old enough to be considered a woman and not a girl.

That said, I wonder if a part of the reason why the current generation refers to themselves as boys and girls (I'm 23 and catch myself calling female friends girls and male friends boys still!) is the often remarked upon 'delay' in growing up that we experience as opposed to our parents' generation. That's not a universal thing, of course, but I do feel like many 20-somethings remain closer to their parents for longer, so maybe that leads us to think of ourselves as children for longer?

For the record: I don't think it's accurate or OK and I try to remind myself not to do it. But I do catch myself doing it often, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it, beyond the pretty obvious sexism that's still prevalent in our society.

[PBrooke]

I don't get super annoyed by Miss, but it's probably an age thing and it wasn't too long ago that two of my science teachers in high school were calling me "Miss " It blows my mind whenever I get a letter or email addressed to "Ms. ," because it's weird knowing I'm old enough to be called Ms. Then again I could go by either one. It's a mindfuck, I tells ya.

I think we should do away with Miss/Ms. entirely. There is no reason to refer to all males as Mr. regardless of age and marital status, but refer to women using three different titles depending on age and marital status. Mrs. for all, like in French, where you're Madame once you're a certain age. French speakers are actually beginning to move away from Mademoiselle since it seems a bit condescending.

Depending on what part of the country you're from, it's not uncommon to pronounce "Ms." so that's it's incredibly similar to "Miss." In fact, I think there was some big kerfluffle a few years back when people thought Jill Duggar was calling someone "Miss" something but I'm pretty sure it was actually "Ms." Even "Mrs." commonly gets shortened down to "Ms." and thus sounds like "Miss," particularly in school "MisPorter! MisSmith! MisCunningham!" I can't think of anyone, growing up, who stressed the "Miz" unless they were deliberately talking slow or contemptuously.

[Little Miss Alien]

The part that is sounding unprofessional to me is the use of the word "my" and then a gender word to describe a co-worker.

I would never say ( and don't recall ever hearing ) "I'll have my girl do it" , but I also wouldn't say "I'll have my woman do it" or "I'll have my boy do it" or "I'll have my man do it" ... all of those sound weird and like you are in a relationship with the person.

I would probably use the name of the co-worker and/or their title. "I'll ask the Office Manager to do it" or "I'll ask Pat, the Office Manager, to do it"

Absolutely. I am my line manager's assistant. She refers to me as such. When referring to the other members of my team (all women), I will usually use their name and job title. Approximately half the team is 'younger' (26-35) and the other half is 'older' (50+). No one is ever called a girl. Colleague, co worker, team member are all used, but never girl. Collectively we are 'guys' informally or otherwise 'team'. We're big on teamwork, so team is used a lot.

I'm also old enough to remember when some women I knew would insist on using "womyn" ... I don't know if anyone still does that ?

There are, and some of them even go on to use terms such as 'sie', 'hir', 'zie', 'zir' etc. I get terribly confused by it all, but I know that people use those terms for a reason.

As for the pay gap - I work in the public sector. We have strictly regulated pay bands with no room for a man at the same level and length of service to get any more money than a woman in the same position.

However, where the difference comes in, is that women have children, so they go part time = less money. Their husband is the main breadwinner and they're still expected to care for the children and run the household. This means their salary is often spent on food or childcare only. No wonder some women do wish for an 'easier' sometimes - yes women working is normal these days, but they're still expected to do the childcare and the household running too. A man who works part time will still bring raised eyebrows, it's far more usual to have full time men, and part time women on the same salary, but pro-rata'd. And yes, when I was in a partnership, he worked full tine and I worked part time, cooked, cleaned, did laundry and looked after the baby. There weren't enough hours in the day! Being on my own now I have to work full time - and I LOVE it! I have to do everything else as well, but it's on my terms now. And because I'm full time, single, no plans to have more children, my line manager is grooming me to move up a level. Not the case with my married, part time counterpart who has just gone on maternity leave for her second child. Sexism is still rife, especially against women of childbearing years, and you have to learn how to navigate around it.

[Haligh the Liar]

It's funny, I HAVE noticed very few men as bank tellers. And yet, there ARE a bunch of them working in the offices as managers and loan officers. There must be something about that.

Must be because girls are so much more empathetic and better at working with the public. I'm sure the pay discrepancy is unrelated.

reds, the presence of several women in trades doesn't mean/prove anything, if those women are paid less than men with the same work experience, or treated with less respect in the workplace. If people are interested, I have tons of cites, let me know if you want me to throw some out. Cites in this case meaning peer reviewed academic studies.

Anecdote=/=data time- many of my sister's friends are very skilled construction workers and contractors. They do earn roughly the same as their male counterparts. If I ended there, the whole girl/woman debate might be irrelevant. However, the full picture emerges when I tell you that these women started their own companies, or do independent contracting work, because when they did work for other companies, they got little respect and much harrassment for their sex and sexual orientation. That's why this is relevant- if a woman has to start her own company to get the respect and pay that she deserves for doing a male dominated occupation, something is very wrong.

[Witsec7]

Dang, I hadn't expected to start a firestorm and not return. (By my own admission I was held captive by a plate of linguini in marinara and a couple of martinis).

Haligh made some good points about the power of words and how they have been historically used to define as well as minimize the roles of individuals. In the workplace I would never consider calling the folks I supervised 'girls' or 'boys'. I chose, as another poster mentioned, to call them a team, task unit, or by their collective job description, technicians. I would have faced discipline had I called my supervisor a boy and not by his working job title. But the power differential was evident when he called me his 'girl'. It did not acknowledge the skills or education that my working title expressed. The fact that he continued to use the phrase after I discussed it with him really indicated something a bit deeper, that he may have had the need to cling to.

Prior to working for the supervisor I mentioned, I had a nontraditional job at a public U. I supervised trades and construction projects, and the employees I supervised were all male. I showed them respect for their accomplishments and skills by calling them by their titles i.e. draftsman,plumber, labor lead etc. Not all of these employees were happy to have a female supervisor, some were fundies, who didn't believe woman should work outside the home. The nice thing about working at a U was that 'isms' were unacceptable, and as a supervisor I could counter their resistance with policy.

[Aurora]

Looking at the stats here there is 8% of women in trades, 26% of all technical jobs are women's.

I'm all for more women in trades - actually more people in general - but I don't think anyone could think that statistic is impressive.

Btw I am also Albertan in a male dominated field and I have experienced plenty of gender discrimination. It doesn't have to be as obvious as being called 'girl', it can be more or less subtle.

[wildcatgrrl]

I worked for two of the USA's largest home improvement retailers, for a total of 10 years, some of which time was spent in management positions. It was my experience that sexism varied from manager to manager, but I definitely got it from the customers, particularly the contractors. A couple of examples that I remember are the guy who said to me, "Where are the 90 degree PVC elbows? Oh, but you probably don't know what I mean, little girl." I did know what he meant, and directed him to the exact bay. He at least had the good grace to look embarrassed and thank me.

The other one was a contractor who wanted free coffee but the contractor's desk was closed, so he came to the service desk and told me they needed some. I don't know how to make coffee. I'm sure that makes me a rotten helpmeet, but my parents never drank it, I don't drink it, my ex-husband (see? I'm a divorced harlot!) and his family didn't drink it, and neither does my husband now. I also never worked in a restaurant, so I never had any reason to learn how to make it. I offered to find someone else to do it, but he asked for my manager and complained on me for "lying about not knowing how to make coffee", because, after all, I am female and I guess I should just know that. Jackass.

Back on topic, Anna looks totally pregnant.

[reds]

I'm all for more women in trades - actually more people in general - but I don't think anyone could think that statistic is impressive.

Btw I am also Albertan in a male dominated field and I have experienced plenty of gender discrimination. It doesn't have to be as obvious as being called 'girl', it can be more or less subtle.

Ok, so i think it is impressive because even 10-15 years ago, women in trades were non-existant. My mother freaked at me taking carpentry in school.

I am sorry that you have experienced gender discrimination. I have not, or i have not recognized it if i have been on the recieving end. Maybe i am such a strong personality that i wouldnt put up with it. Yes i know it exists i never said it didnt. I just dont have a problem witht he girl comment. I would be more apt to pick the battle on equal wages, blowjobs for promotions, and all out assault. Being called a girl seems like a non-issue. (blast me again...)

[holierthanyou]

Maybe i am such a strong personality that i wouldnt put up with it.

I am not surprised you would think to blame the victim rather than the oppressor.

Just stop talking.

[ellerigby]

No, the problem is that you girls aren't even trying to understand that point. This is not about preference (e.g. which sparkle nail polish to wear). The point is that you would not want to be called girl - none of you would want to be called girl - if you were old enough or unlucky enough (or both) to truly grasp the way this was used against working women for decades.

I guess it's a good thing that younger women today don't understand, but it also means we're in danger of losing things without appreciating the significance until it's too late.

If you want to call yourself girl, or your friends are your "girlfriends," then, really, I couldn't care less. If you think it's appropriate for a male boss to call all the women who work for him "girls" when he calls your male peers "men," then you're eyes aren't very open.

This. I am a fairly young woman (27) and this drives me nuts. I guess I'm unlucky- I'm a lawyer in a maie-dominated area and get "that girl" All. The. Time. It was worse when I was an intern, but still happens frequently. I see older male lawyers refer to their female paralegals and assistants as "girls" all the time, for women aged 20ish to 80! I grew up hearing all about my mom's struggles as the only woman architect at her firm in the 70s and have learned about the difficulties my older female mentors faced in the "old boys club" of law firms.

In purely social settings, I am guilty of occasionally using "girls' night" (when trying to casually let friends know that their male SOs aren't invited - usually employed when someone is dating a particularly offensive guy) or "girlfriends," but I try to avoid it. I usually just say "you guys" or "friends," even when it is an all-woman group.

[littlehouse]

Holy crap there are a lot of us Albertans on here!

I wonder how Anna will spin it when they finally say she is pregnant.

[ellerigby]

As for the original topic, Anna does look like she could be pregnant and, if so, I hope she's getting all the love and medical care she needs.

However, as a woman who gains 10 pounds straight to my stomach whenever it's Shark Week, and has dealt with other major weight fluctuations due to hormones being obnoxious, I generally don't like to speculate on other women's bodies (I'm making an extremely hypocritical exception here). ;)

[Aurora]

I have not, or i have not recognized it if i have been on the recieving end. Maybe i am such a strong personality that i wouldnt put up with it. Yes i know it exists i never said it didnt. I just dont have a problem witht he girl comment. I would be more apt to pick the battle on equal wages, blowjobs for promotions, and all out assault. Being called a girl seems like a non-issue. (blast me again...)

Blowjobs for promotions is not how it works. There are far more subtle ways. Please do (not) educate us "girls" with your brilliant wisdom on how to Not Put Up With It. I am (not) waiting with bated breath.

[AKay]

I am not surprised you would think to blame the victim rather than the oppressor.

Just stop talking.

Seriously. And personality type has nothing to do with it anyways, harassment/belittling in the workplace can and does happen to all types of women.

[ChunkyBarbie]

I worked for an Old Boys' Club on two different occasions. They were the most depressing and scary employment experiences of my life. I felt like I was constantly having to walk a tight rope without a safety net. I quit the first job as soon as I could. The second time, I was married and had responsibilities and felt I had to hang in there. Both times i had to suffer being treated less than and as a pretty object. I don't want to go into detailS, it still makes me sick. I consulted a lawyer, but didn't have enough evidence to sue. How I don't know. I hated my boss and so did my staff, his solution was to fire me without cause and hire some bimbo. She actually bragged to my staff about how she got her job, "it isn't who know, but who you blow." There are more sordid details, but yech. This was in the year 2001, and my story isn't an isolated one. No surprise, that every Old Boy prick referred to his female staff as "HIS girls." Calling women "girls" may seem like a little thing, but little things add up and are often indicative of the big and real picture.