The Duggar conundrum

[Elle]

...they are polite, well mannered, hard working and respectful so JB and Michelle must have got something right. They are a close loving family, who have real faith and are wiling to stand up and profess that.

Even the biggest bitch in the world can put on a smiling face and be polite. Do you know many southerners? I'm from a southern family, and every damned one of us can come off as the most polite, sweet person, then tear you to shreds behind your back. The Duggar kids have been raised from birth to smile at the world. Are you familiar with any of the training methods? Methods that include striking infants with plumbing pipe? Those kids don't know how to do anything but smile. There's a creepy picture at Jubilee's funeral where they're all looking at her tiny casket with the same smiles on their faces they always have.

Politeness and good manners don't always go hand-in-hand with being a nice person. Jim Bob believes in passing judgement and backing people in the corner to "minister" to them. He and the oldest son, Josh, have both tried getting involved in politics, and both are openly and avidly anti-gay-rights and anti-birth-control and basically against anyone living lives different than their own. Given their way, I would be property of my husband. Our daughter's vagina would be the property of her father, my husband, until she is given to another man as his property. How the hell is this respectful?

Close, loving family? Why are Michelle and JB away from the kids more often than not? While Josie was still so sick, Michelle was off at "tea with Michelle" events getting awards for being mother-of-the-year while the older girls were the ones taking care of Josie at home. Michelle spent more time with Josie in the hospital than she's spent with any of the there ids as babies, and there's a video of her saying she had no idea it was possible to bond with a baby like that. Took until #19 for her to learn you can bond with a baby because she routinely passes them off at six months of age to a "buddy" who is responsible for raising the child from waking until bed time. No kidding. The "buddy" is usually chosen even before conception. Chances are it's already decided who will be raising #20.

JB spends a bit more time with the kids and seems more concerned for his wife's well-being while she was looking forward to #20 when Josie was just weeks old. But still, he could be doing more.

The kids have to sign up for one-on-one time with a parent, and the parent will "try" to be available. Sadly the younger kids see their "buddies," the sisters who raised them, as Mom. Some loving parents Michelle and JB are.

[jesssnerch]

I'm not arguing that there's no difference. I was responding to how much some people were using the D kids riding around unsupervised as a sticking point for how bad their parents are at parenting, and then attacking another poster as being wrong when she said she did the same thing. There are worse things JB and J'Chelle do, such as blanket training and restricting their children's education, and those should be our focus here.

Very, very true

[bananacat]

Just to clarify, I do not think the Duggar kids are perfectly well behaved angels, if in case by 'certain people' you were referring to me. My original point was that their actions seem like things that any child would do, exacerbated by their environment (lack of parenting, school, etc.).

No, if you truly did what you did, riding bikes to test them out before buying them, that is completely different than what the Duggar kids did. And no, most kids do not do what those boys did. You're wrong there. Most kids have a basic understanding to not just use something that doesn't belong to them, or at least they have enough supervision.

[Lillian]

No, if you truly did what you did, riding bikes to test them out before buying them, that is completely different than what the Duggar kids did. And no, most kids do not do what those boys did. You're wrong there. Most kids have a basic understanding to not just use something that doesn't belong to them, or at least they have enough supervision.

I think you have misunderstood me. My point was that the Duggar boys act in ways that most all children would emulate, given their environment and situation. My understanding is that if any child did not have adequate supervision, structure, appropriate discipline, etc. in their everyday lives, then they would act similarly to the Duggar boys.

ETA: I agree with the various other posters who say that there are much more serious issues with JB and Jchelles parenting and lifestyle choices.

[Shana]

Oy, all this talk about the dumb bike, it's making my head spin!

I think ppl say "they're so well behaved!" because they see the kids all sitting pretty on the Today show. That's it. I also agree with the point about the kids being well groomed enough that they appear better behaved.

[Guest LilaFowler]

I remember on the very first special one of the little boys was crying to go with Michelle and she learned down and whispered something to him that you can't hear and he immediatly stops crying and backs away. My immediate thought was that she threatened him with some sort of punishment. I have been around ATI crowds enough to know that gentle discipline is not encouraged.

I remember that. I'll never forget it actually. It was little James, and he wanted to go to the grocery store with everyone else. :(

[bananacat]

I think you have misunderstood me. My point was that the Duggar boys act in ways that most all children would emulate, given their environment and situation. My understanding is that if any child did not have adequate supervision, structure, appropriate discipline, etc. in their everyday lives, then they would act similarly to the Duggar boys.

ETA: I agree with the various other posters who say that there are much more serious issues with JB and Jchelles parenting and lifestyle choices.

I didn't misunderstand at all. You explained yourself poorly or else you meant something very different and are just backtracking now. You never said that it's something that all kids would do if they had bad parents like that; you just said that it's something all kids do without any qualifiers. Most kids don't do that stuff because they have adequate supervision. You also used yourself as an example of a kid behaving like that, but then you didn't clarify that what you did was completely different until several posts later, suspiciously after people criticized your behavior. So if you truly did just ride the bikes in a completely different context, I don't know why you brought it up in the first place since it is not relevant here.

[Lillian]

I didn't misunderstand at all. You explained yourself poorly or else you meant something very different and are just backtracking now. You never said that it's something that all kids would do if they had bad parents like that; you just said that it's something all kids do without any qualifiers. Most kids don't do that stuff because they have adequate supervision. You also used yourself as an example of a kid behaving like that, but then you didn't clarify that what you did was completely different until several posts later, suspiciously after people criticized your behavior. So if you truly did just ride the bikes in a completely different context, I don't know why you brought it up in the first place since it is not relevant here.

This was in my original post:

I place all the blame on Boob and Jchelle, though. I think the howler monkeys are really just behaving as most kids in their environment would behave most of the time. When they don't have structure, enough attention from parents, not enough interesting school work to keep them occupied (and don't forget an exceptionally crappy diet full of sugar and fat), I think most children would turn into howler monkeys. The J'slaves can't be responsible for the upbringing of their siblings. It is ridiculous.

So I did highlight the bad parents, and the qualifiers I stated were 'when they don't have structure, enough attention from parents, school work, crappy diet'. Also I was discussing the Duggar boys behavior as a whole, not the isolated incident of the bikes.

I used myself as an example because I believe riding bikes in stores is something that the average kid does, and it is not totally abhorrent behavior that should be outlawed. Thus supporting my argument that the Duggar boys are behaving as average kids would in the same situation, exacerbated by their crappy environment.

I can't believe this discussion is still going. I think JB and Jchelle are bad parents, who have not done a good job raising their children, which results in bad behavior on the part of their children. I don't think I can be more clear than that.

[chiccy]

I used myself as an example because I believe riding bikes in stores is something that the average kid does, and it is not totally abhorrent behavior that should be outlawed. Thus supporting my argument that the Duggar boys are behaving as average kids would in the same situation, exacerbated by their crappy environment.

I can't believe this discussion is still going. I think JB and Jchelle are bad parents, who have not done a good job raising their children, which results in bad behavior on the part of their children. I don't think I can be more clear than that.

I can't believe this discussion is still going, either. It's totally ridiculous. Personally, I am sure that you are much more well-behaved than any Duggar child. Why certain people are flipping a shit about the biking thing is beyond me.

[m0drnmoonlight]

I don't see how anyone can call the Duggar children well-behaved. Jim Boob and J'Michelle are completely hands-off when it comes to parenting and have been since around the time the younger set of twins arrived. Ever since then, the older girls have been used as live-in nannies and are doing ALL the work. They're not even nannies, they're more like stand-in moms since the real mom clearly doesn't give a crap about any kid over the age of six months.

And with teenage girls in charge, it looks like the discipline has been really lax. I'm guessing the older kids are much better disciplined and behaved (ok, so Josh is a smug douche, but you know what I mean! They're not wild maniacs like the little kids) because J'Michelle actually raised them and they probably faced much more severe punishment than the little ones.

I know kids can be out-of-control. I know it's normal for little kids to have boundless energy and seeing them act out is better than having little robots. But there's a difference between running around outside and playing and what the Duggar kids do. We've seen them climb on tables and throw toys and PLAY ON THE OPEN STAIRCASE (I'm with a lot of you, that terrifies me! Especially with a hard floor being the only thing that would break a fall) and pretty much wreck the rental house they had in Little Rock. They have no structure and no discipline and their overworked older sisters are burdened with everything, so it's no wonder the little kids are out-of-control.

I would never call those children well-behaved little angels.

Edited for spelling

[MadameX]

I can't believe this discussion is still going, either. It's totally ridiculous. Personally, I am sure that you are much more well-behaved than any Duggar child. Why certain people are flipping a shit about the biking thing is beyond me.

Because clearly it isn't something the average kid does? Goodness, my mother would have been furious if my brother of I had meddled with some store display. But it probably would never have even occurred to either of us to try it. We were raised not to touch things that didn't belong to us, and not to make a nuisance of ourselves in public.

[EmmieJ]

Well, I guess I have really irresponsible parents, because they didn't mind us running around a bit. Though there were only 2 of us. And usually Mum would ride around in stores with us. It actually made some really happy childhood memories, for me.

I'm not now nor ever was flipping out over the topic of children riding display bikes in a store. I would to point out that I responded to a comment made by Lillian, in which she said it was normal for kids to " ride bikes in stores, climb on furniture, and swing dangerously high." (I disagree.) In response to my remark that my parents had rules and discipline and expected their children to follow certain behavior guidelines, Lillian (snippily?) replied that she must have had "irresponsible" parents because they didn't mind her "running around a bit." (I'm not quite sure how Lillian took my description of being raised with certain boundaries to mean that my parents never allowed us to "run around a bit," but that appears to be what happened.)

While I personally did not allow my child to ride bikes or trikes around in a store, I understand that some people think differently on this issue. Of course my son tried out a bike or two when I bought him one, although we happened to purchase them from a bike store and they had an outside area for riding the bikes. However, the bigger issue is that the Duggar parents do not actually raise their younger children; the older daughters do. Thus, the discipline has been much more lax, and the younger Duggars have not been taught appropriate behavior, either at home or when out in public. While children naturally have an exuberance that leads to rambunctious behavior, I believe it's a parental responsibility to channel that energy into appropriate activities, rather than letting them run wild around the house, or get into dangerous situations.

The younger Duggars are essentially nice children, being raised by their older sisters, with very little routine or discipline. To call these youngsters well-behaved is inaccurate.

[Lillian]

EmmieJ, I'm sorry if I came off as snippy, that honestly was not my intention. I was being poking fun at my own upbringing. I did not mean to imply that your parents did not let you "run around". Again, sorry if I offended you.

I agree with you that the older daughter raise the Duggar children, resulting is lax discipline. I agree with you about parental responsibility.

Again, I never said and I do not believe that the Duggar children are well behaved.

Now, I am seriously over this topic. Hopefully the new Duggar episode will give Free Jinger some new snarkworthy material!

[naysayersspeak]

You know what really got me?

When Josie wasn't breathing, and Jill had to make the 911 call, because J'chelle was just screaming in the background. I know Jill is an adult, etc, but when, in a moment of crisis, you can't act like an adult and expect your kid to do it for you, there is something so deeply wrong. Delivering 19 Kids and parenting 19 kids is so very far from being the same thing.