Andrea Yates

[Alecto]

Maybe because I have experienced first hand someone with post partum schizophrenia, I have a different point of view on Andrea. The world Andrea was experiencing is not the same as the real world. She honestly believed the only way she could possibly save her children was to kill them. In her mind, at the time of the crime, Andrea thought she was doing the right thing, because by killing them, she was saving them. That is why she was calm. Because why would someone be upset at doing the right thing?

[Beb]

I think you may be reading too much into their exchange.

As for her being sorry - she was psychotic. Do you really equate her lack of remorse to what it would mean should you or I not show remorse in that situation? I mean, do you really think that she didn't care or that she wasn't "fearful" because she's just evil? Or have you never had any experience with someone in your life who's been mentally ill and you just don't understand that mental illness is as real and as debilitating as physical illness?

You keep missing the most vital point: she was psychotic. She wasn't just some overwhelmed mom who was just pissed off at her kids and then used religious wackiness to justify offing her kids. She was psychotic. Do you know what that means and how that truly fucks up someone's ability to relate to reality in any meaningful way?

Yep, she probably "knew" she shouldn't kill the kids. Or maybe she just knew enough to know Randy and others wouldn't agree, but the voices, the PSYCHOSIS telling her she needed to do it was stronger than anything else.

Do I think she's blameless? Yes and no. She is guilty of not standing up to Rusty and telling him she'd rather take her medication than have more children. But she is not guilty of killing her children in cold blood in the way you have described. The woman really was not in touch with reality. Many psychiatrists and other doctors have testified to this with greater accuracy and greater knowledge than have you.

I know I'm being rather defensive here but I AM mentally ill and I get really sick of people who think that someone using a true mental illness to avoid prison time is just getting off scot free. This woman will be institutionalized for the rest of her life. Now, if she were on medication and deemed "stable" would I allow her to babysit my dogs (have no children)? Hell no. But I'm sane enough to know what my limits are and how to manage being bipolar. She's not able to manage her illness on her own and probably never will be, from what I've read.

So are you just as sympathetic to men such as John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy--the mentally ill among us who suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder of the severe type? Many killers such as those mentioned have also claimed to have heard from God who directs them to commit their heinous acts. Doesn't seem to me as if society is nearly as sympathetic to those with that illness as it is to women with PPP.

Isn't the tendency to murder symptomatic, in itself, of a mental disorder?

[deelaem]

Maybe because I have experienced first hand someone with post partum schizophrenia, I have a different point of view on Andrea. The world Andrea was experiencing is not the same as the real world. She honestly believed the only way she could possibly save her children was to kill them. In her mind, at the time of the crime, Andrea thought she was doing the right thing, because by killing them, she was saving them. That is why she was calm. Because why would someone be upset at doing the right thing?

Austin, you are so much more eloquent and concise than I am. Want to be my mouthpiece? ;) You really nailed what was going on in Andrea's mind at the time of the killings. And from what I understand, she hasn't made a whole lot of improvement, unfortunately.

[Beb]

The difference is you just diagnosed Rusty - Andrea was diagnosed by several mental health professionals.

Yes, I do understand that, except that was not my intent. It was a hypothetical to point out that there ARE many people--men, women--who have a severe form of APD (John Wayne Gacy, BTK Killer, etc.), with whom society does not sympathize at all, and I would say THOSE people are truly psychotic as well.

[Gizmola]

So are you just as sympathetic to men such as John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy--the mentally ill among us who suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder of the severe type? Many killers such as those mentioned have also claimed to have heard from God who directs them to commit their heinous acts. Doesn't seem to me as if society is nearly as sympathetic to those with that illness as it is to women with PPP.

Isn't the tendency to murder symptomatic, in itself, of a mental disorder?

Yes and no.

I'm not familiar with Gacy so I'll not comment.

I have read extensively about Ted Bundy. First of all, Ted Bundy was a sociopath. Very different from postpartum psychosis. There was no cure, no help for Bundy and men such as him. From what I've read, much of it is inborn - he was born a sociopath. Andrea Yates suffered from great brain chemistry problems which could possibly be alleviated through medication. No such medication exists for Ted Bundy and his ilk.

Further, Andrea Yates did not kill for sport or for sadistic sexual pleasure. Ted Bundy did. He was a necrophiliac and kept the heads of his victims. He did not kill because he was out of touch with reality in a psychotic rage connected with particular brain chemistry. Do you see the difference?

For the record, I do not believe in the death penalty under ANY circumstances. Sociopaths, however, should be in a maximum security penal setting. They don't benefit or change with rehabilitation. There is no hope for someone like that.

I really think you don't fully understand mental illness, neither the severity nor the nuances.

[Beb]

Yes and no.

I'm not familiar with Gacy so I'll not comment.

I have read extensively about Ted Bundy. First of all, Ted Bundy was a sociopath. Very different from postpartum psychosis. There was no cure, no help for Bundy and men such as him. From what I've read, much of it is inborn - he was born a sociopath. Andrea Yates suffered from great brain chemistry problems which could possibly be alleviated through medication. No such medication exists for Ted Bundy and his ilk.

Further, Andrea Yates did not kill for sport or for sadistic sexual pleasure. Ted Bundy did. He was a necrophiliac and kept the heads of his victims. He did not kill because he was out of touch with reality in a psychotic rage connected with particular brain chemistry. Do you see the difference?

For the record, I do not believe in the death penalty under ANY circumstances. Sociopaths, however, should be in a maximum security penal setting. They don't benefit or change with rehabilitation. There is no hope for someone like that.

I really think you don't fully understand mental illness, neither the severity nor the nuances.

Ted Bundy was diagnosed as a psychopath, which actually is very similar to a sociopath.

Still, my point is that society is not sympathetic to that extreme mental disorder. It generates rage and all sorts of unpleasant feelings and reactions, although it is a mental illness of the most severe order.

Sometimes psychopaths are delusional and claim to hear from God and also do not remember many of their actions. (That is not always the case.)

Personally, I have no easier time sympathizing with a mother guilty of infanticide than I do with the psychopaths of the world, but that does not seem to be the case among most.

[CanadianHippie]

Maybe most of us just understand the meaning of "break with reality". A psychopath knows what he's doing is wrong and just doesn't give a shit, Andrea Yates on the other hand, thought what she was doing was right.

[Austin]

Austin, you are so much more eloquent and concise than I am. Want to be my mouthpiece? ;) You really nailed what was going on in Andrea's mind at the time of the killings. And from what I understand, she hasn't made a whole lot of improvement, unfortunately.

:D Actually, this is from Alecto, but I happen to totally agree with what she posted. Beb is confusing sociopathy/psychopathy with post partum schizophrenia. Bundy, Gacy = sociopathicic or psychopath, Andrea Yates = post partum schizophrenia.

Yes the children died horribly. It doesn't change that she thought that she was doing the right thing for them at the time, i.e., allowing their souls to be saved.

If Andrea Yates didn't meet the bar for M'Naghten, I don't think anybody ever would.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Yes, I do understand that, except that was not my intent. It was a hypothetical to point out that there ARE many people--men, women--who have a severe form of APD (John Wayne Gacy, BTK Killer, etc.), with whom society does not sympathize at all, and I would say THOSE people are truly psychotic as well.

[Beb]

:D Actually, this is from Alecto, but I happen to totally agree with what she posted. Beb is confusing sociopathy/psychopathy with post partum schizophrenia. Bundy, Gacy = sociopathicic or psychopath, Andrea Yates = post partum schizophrenia.

Yes the children died horribly. It doesn't change that she thought that she was doing the right thing for them at the time, i.e., allowing their souls to be saved.

If Andrea Yates didn't meet the bar for M'Naghten, I don't think anybody ever would.

No I'm not confusing those at all. I'm commenting on society's tendency to be more sympathetic to certain types of mental illness than it is to others. That's all.

[Austin]

While the personality disordered are mentally ill technically, that is far different from someone like Yates. They know what they are doing is wrong when they kill someone. They plan it and they execute it and the whole entire time, they are completely aware of their actions and the moral wrongness of them, not to mention the illegality. And if we're talking Gacy and Bundy and the like, they start over planning the next one. All mental illness is not the same, any more than any other type of illness.

Apples and oranges.

[Gizmola]

No I'm not confusing those at all. I'm commenting on society's tendency to be more sympathetic to certain types of mental illness than it is to others. That's all.

Of course society is going to be more sympathetic to someone who has a psychotic break due to a correctable condition as opposed to someone who is psychopathic and who is unable to be helped in any way. Further, someone who, in their right mind, would never hurt anyone, especially those they love the most, usually do engender more sympathy than someone who actually takes joy and pleasure from inflicting pain, torturing and killing others.

Society, as a whole, is actually not very sympathetic to mental illness overall. I think your statements about Andrea killing without feeling, being aware that what she was doing was wrong, and your implying that because she knew enough to call the police that she should be held as accountable as a Ted Bundy, etc. proves my point that sympathy for mental illness is not universal.

I do think, as a society, we are more appalled and harder on women who kill their children than we are on men. Somehow a mother killing her children is in opposition to everything we think about motherhood, childhood, etc. We believe, as society, that mothers are supposed to be the wellspring of all that is good, safe, and stable in our lives. If anyone would choose to end their life before letting someone hurt their children, we imagine that to be mothers. We hear about a man beating their children and we think he's an asshole, evil, etc. but I don't think it jars and scares us the way it does when it's a mother.

[jenny_islander]

Andrea Yates murdered people because she thought that she was saving them from something even worse. Ted Bundy murdered people because planning and carrying out murders excited him. One pathology is pitiable, the other simply dangerous.

[Beb]

While the personality disordered are mentally ill technically, that is far different from someone like Yates. They know what they are doing is wrong when they kill someone. They plan it and they execute it and the whole entire time, they are completely aware of their actions and the moral wrongness of them, not to mention the illegality. And if we're talking Gacy and Bundy and the like, they start over planning the next one. All mental illness is not the same, any more than any other type of illness.

Apples and oranges.

According to the transcripts Andrea Yates did all of that. It was not an impulsive move brought on by a sudden psychosis, but it was something she had planned and almost carried out before.....influenced and generated by her psychosis. She understood the wrongness AND the illegality, thus she called 911 and inquired of a responding officer what might be the penalty for her actions.

Of course all mental illness is not the same, but certain types of mental illnesses alter the ability of a person to behave as society would expect--both Andrea Yates and Ted bundy. One is just more acceptable to most.

[Hane]

Of course society is going to be more sympathetic to someone who has a psychotic break due to a correctable condition as opposed to someone who is psychopathic and who is unable to be helped in any way. Further, someone who, in their right mind, would never hurt anyone, especially those they love the most, usually do engender more sympathy than someone who actually takes joy and pleasure from inflicting pain, torturing and killing others....

I do think, as a society, we are more appalled and harder on women who kill their children than we are on men. Somehow a mother killing her children is in opposition to everything we think about motherhood, childhood, etc. We believe, as society, that mothers are supposed to be the wellspring of all that is good, safe, and stable in our lives. If anyone would choose to end their life before letting someone hurt their children, we imagine that to be mothers. We hear about a man beating their children and we think he's an asshole, evil, etc. but I don't think it jars and scares us the way it does when it's a mother.

Gizmola, first of all, thank you for your thoughtful and intelligent analysis of these kinds of mental illnesses. My sister, an LCSW who works with mentally ill patients, has seen this time and again: there is virtually no sympathy for the truly mentally ill who kill. I learned that people who plead insanity (to "play" the system) when charged with lesser crimes are far more likely to be let off the hook than psychotics or schizophrenics who kill people. (I will not call this "murder," because people like Andrea Yates, as far as I'm concerned, don't fit the category.)

Regarding the killing of children by mothers vs. fathers: I must respectfully disagree. My sister had a patient who killed her three-year-old son during a psychotic break. The little boy had a strep throat, and his pediatrician told the mother that the child would be in considerable pain until the prescription began working. The mother's diseased mind interpreted this as "Your son is in excruciating pain and would be better off dead," so she took him home and smothered him as he slept. After in-patient psychiatric treatment, the mother came to understand what she had done, and was grief-stricken. Decades later, she is mentally healthy (in part because of improved anti-psychotic drugs), but still confined to the in-patient facility indefinitely, although she is no longer a threat to herself or others--because the child's father and the paternal grandparents actively fight against her release.

Not long thereafter, a local Vietnam combat veteran (husband of a parochial school principal) was being treated for PTSD. His seven-year-old daughter walked into the kitchen and asked for a snack, and he calmly took a carving knife and stabbed her to death. Then he walked out into the back yard, where, he said, squirrels came down from the trees to greet him--a sign from God that he had done the right thing. Both his defense and the district attorney quickly concluded that he was incompetent to stand trial, and he was hospitalized.

Two horrific cases, neither less tragic than the other. These are the people my sister calls "truly crazy" and worthy of the compassion that such people are rarely afforded.

[Austin]

According to the transcripts Andrea Yates did all of that. It was not an impulsive move brought on by a sudden psychosis, but it was something she had planned and almost carried out before.....influenced and generated by her psychosis. She understood the wrongness AND the illegality, thus she called 911 and inquired of a responding officer what might be the penalty for her actions.

Of course all mental illness is not the same, but certain types of mental illnesses alter the ability of a person to behave as society would expect--both Andrea Yates and Ted bundy. One is just more acceptable to most.

Well, that is but one interpretation. Very highly respected mental health professionals look at those same transcripts and the facts of the case and believe that she had lost touch with reallity in that she believed her children were going to hell if she didn't kill them before the "age of reason".

Ted Bundy =/= Andrea Yates. No one is debating that Bundy had mental health issues, but he could control his actions and did on most occasions in his life. He did not have a long history of hospitalization for the types of mental health illness that Yates had, the type that causes people to lose touch with reality, the type that responds to differing degrees to medication. He was a glib, charismatic lawyer wannabe who was considered quite the catch by some. He lured women into his grasp by pretending to be injured, over and over again, over many years. He was personality disordered, which is an Axis II disorder. No type or amount of medication could make him better.

No, society doesn't feel sorry for Ted Bundy and many do for Andrea Yates.

[emmiedahl]

So are you just as sympathetic to men such as John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy--the mentally ill among us who suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder of the severe type? Many killers such as those mentioned have also claimed to have heard from God who directs them to commit their heinous acts. Doesn't seem to me as if society is nearly as sympathetic to those with that illness as it is to women with PPP.

Isn't the tendency to murder symptomatic, in itself, of a mental disorder?

You are confusing a personality disorder with psychosis. Those are two different states of being.

A person with a personality disorder is aware of reality. They have personality traits that make it difficult for them to function in society, but they know right and wrong. Psychotic people do not. They cannot control it anymore than you can control the growth of a cancerous tumor.

eta: back to my bipolar brother. He KNOWS right and wrong. Sometimes his impulses lead him to wrong, but he does ultimately bear some responsibility for his actions. Legally, he absolutely does. When he ran amiss of the law, the judge took his mental illness into account during sentencing. But he did not have an insanity plea option because he was not psychotic.

[Wolfie]

And he also was not the one who unfeelingly killed his children, leaving his son in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, brought on by the trauma of death.

But he was told that it was NOT SAFE to leave her alone around the children. He still left her alone with them.

I realize Andrea was mentally ill, but her asshole husband is the epitome of fundiness. If he should be held accountable for his wife's actions, then this should open the door to investigating other fundies whose lifestyles are very similar to the Yates' lifestyle was.

My sympathies lie with the innocent victims, and they are potentially present in many fundy homes.

And why shouldn't it? If there are signs of disfunction, for the kids sake, there should be investigation. If I had a student who told me that, "mommy is sick, she's scary and daddy leaves her alone with us," you bet I would be calling CPS before school was out. A lot of the time these families hide from the public by "homeschooling." But if you suspect something is going wrong in a family, call CPS. They can investigate and see if something is really wrong.

I had a friend who became very mentally ill a few years ago, the doctor called CPS and the children were removed. She would have never hurt them, but she understood why it was done. It actually was probably one of the best things for her, she worked so hard to recover, she has her children back now, and is in a much better place in her life mentally than she has been for nearly a decade.

[Vex]

Ted Bundy was diagnosed as a psychopath, which actually is very similar to a sociopath.

Still, my point is that society is not sympathetic to that extreme mental disorder. It generates rage and all sorts of unpleasant feelings and reactions, although it is a mental illness of the most severe order.

Sometimes psychopaths are delusional and claim to hear from God and also do not remember many of their actions. (That is not always the case.)

Personally, I have no easier time sympathizing with a mother guilty of infanticide than I do with the psychopaths of the world, but that does not seem to be the case among most.

I agree that society is generally ignorant about mental illness and highly unsympathetic to criminals with mental illnesses. I think people like Gein, Gacy and Dahmer are utterly abhored for their crimes even though they were severely abused and/or suffered from extreme mental illness, whereas women with mental illnesses like Andrea Yates are sympathised with and generally seen in a better light. Ted Bundy, however, doesn't belong with those other names. Bundy wasn't abused or suffering from psychosis in any way - sociopathy is a personality disorder.

[takers401]

Why is it that when people have psychotic episodes they tend to kill others? Why do the voices they hear or the thoughts they have always seem to center around death? I'm not trying to be tongue in cheek but are there ever cases where someone has a psychotic break and tries to be overly nice to someone? I don't know much about mental illnesses so I'm curious.

[Conuly]

Why is it that when people have psychotic episodes they tend to kill others? Why do the voices they hear or the thoughts they have always seem to center around death? I'm not trying to be tongue in cheek but are there ever cases where someone has a psychotic break and tries to be overly nice to someone? I don't know much about mental illnesses so I'm curious.

Cases where psychotic episodes lead to killing sprees are much more likely to make the news than cases where psychotic breaks lead to spending sprees, hiding in the house, running away from home, or being obsessively nice to people. This should be fairly self-evident.

Mind, I don't have the actual statistics to hand about what the likely result of a psychotic break will be, but I try to remember, in all discussions, that "if it bleeds, it leads". Commercial media is, by its nature, inclined to sensationalism.

[takers401]

Cases where psychotic episodes lead to killing sprees are much more likely to make the news than cases where psychotic breaks lead to spending sprees, hiding in the house, running away from home, or being obsessively nice to people. This should be fairly self-evident.

Mind, I don't have the actual statistics to hand about what the likely result of a psychotic break will be, but I try to remember, in all discussions, that "if it bleeds, it leads". Commercial media is, by its nature, inclined to sensationalism.

Duh. Totally didn't think about the media sensation highlighting some cases over others and that being why I only hear of certain types of outcomes.

[Conuly]

Duh. Totally didn't think about the media sensation highlighting some cases over others and that being why I only hear of certain types of outcomes.

And it's not just the media, our minds tend to remember shocking and unusual things instead of commonplace things, and we tend to remember upsetting things instead of good things. I'm sure there's a survival benefit to this, but this is why people insist on saying things like "I'd love to do X, but it's not like when we grew up, times have changed, it's not safe."

This is, of course, nonsense. Unless you grew up in the 50s (and weren't black, gay, or potentially communist), it's now a lot SAFER than when we grew up. The murder rate is the lowest it's been in ages, the violent crime rate is way down (and you expect it to rise a little in hard times!), and we've got seat belts in our cars. But you can't get people to believe it if they don't want to.

[mirele]

According to the transcripts Andrea Yates did all of that. It was not an impulsive move brought on by a sudden psychosis, but it was something she had planned and almost carried out before.....influenced and generated by her psychosis. She understood the wrongness AND the illegality, thus she called 911 and inquired of a responding officer what might be the penalty for her actions.

Of course all mental illness is not the same, but certain types of mental illnesses alter the ability of a person to behave as society would expect--both Andrea Yates and Ted bundy. One is just more acceptable to most.

And you know what...she's getting help now, but apparently, from what I've read, every time she gets up to what we would call sanity she realizes what she's done--and then she breaks down again. She's never getting out of the prison of her mind. :(

[jenny_islander]

A friend's husband suffered a psychotic break and it looked, at first, like a mid-life crisis. He started an affair with a local gold digger, emptied the family bank account and gave her the money, and talked about starting a new life. He rapidly spiraled downward into paranoia and started hearing voices. While he was climbing out of the hole he was an utter ass, convinced that Everyone Hated Him Waaaah, like teenaged angst except with a bigger vocabulary. You could literally say to him, "Sky sure is blue today," and he would retort, "YOU SAID THE SKY IS BLUE YOU THINK I'M STUPID YOU WANT ME TO DIEEEEE YOU HATE ME."

But as someone said that kind of thing doesn't make the news.