Andrea Yates

[apple1]

The Yates case is extremely sad. Rusty Yates eventually remarried and, last I heard, a big advocate of treating mentally ill criminals in hospitals rather than sentencing them to prisons. I think that's a big step for someone who once thought his psychotic wife was capable of caring for five young children...

I do not for a minute believe that Rusty Yates has made any "big steps" foward. I think that he is a master at manipulating the system, and at manipulating the media to his advantage. Hence, his being a "media expert" when the subject of murdered children arises. Making statements about treating mentally ill criminals in hospitals instead of prisons is part of the act. JMHO.

[mirele]

I absolutely blame Rusty. He knew she wasn't to be left alone, he knew she shouldn't have had any more children, he knew she needed that medication. Maybe he is feeling guilty now, he should be too. He should be the one locked up, not Andrea.

I'm of the opinion that Rusty is one of those men who should have "Ladies, RUN AWAY" tattooed on his crotch. I was shocked that he remarried. I'm shocked that he has another child. If it's true he's in law school, he's going to discover upon getting out how there are very few jobs for lawyers. I don't want to be a vindictive asshole.....

As for Andrea, I never blamed her for the children's deaths--I grew up with my mom, the paranoid schizophrenic, so yeah, I could understand how things can get bad and quickly. When mom takes her meds, everything is reasonably good. When she doesn't take her meds, it's not so good and can spiral down into real violence. As an adult, I've had to come to grips with the fact that not only was my mother not "there" for much of my childhood and teens, but that she was also a major source of a lot of fear I experienced growing up. There were (and are) some things I just don't tell my mom because I don't want her to come stark staring unglued. When I was a kid, I remember locking my siblings and myself in a bedroom because mom was waving knives around. My brother told me late last year that he was on the verge of hiding the knives in the house due to mom physically attacking my father. Thankfully she got a prescription refill and has been taking her meds on a regular basis.

I still think Rusty and that preacher should have been on trial, not sure on what charges, but those two together were responsible for the deaths of the Yates children just as surely as Andrea was.

[deelaem]

The Andrea Yates case was sort of my gateway into the fundie world. I was horrified then, as now. Her case also points up the vast amount of ignorance there is in this country regarding mental illness.

Something needs to be said here, before people run with the idea that a psychotic person is always dangerous. As a group, people with mental illness are less likely, statistically, to be violent than the general population is. Psychosis does not necessarily mean violence.

[kb2]

One thing that bothers me about Rusty's doctor-blaming is that he wanted the doctors to give Andrea a high dose of a first-generation (older) antipsychotic that she was given the time she became completely catatonic, and claims that all she needed was that simple thing, and that that would have "fixed" her. But the drug can have a side effect of a movement disorder which may not go away when the drug is discontinued--and her doctors said they worried she was getting this side effect, and that's why they didn't want to use it. Rusty seemed to completely not care that another pregnancy would be putting Andrea through a psychotic episode in the first place--her suffering during the episode didn't matter as long as she could be fixed in time to do most of the childcare. How do you look at someone who has become catatonic and say, yep, let's do this again, no big deal? In the second place he didn't care that the medications he wanted to use could cause a permanent movement disorder--it didn't matter to him that she should be treated with the right medications that would stabilize her and maintain her physical well-being--she needed to be capable of caring for the children more than she needed to be able to control her own body. She shouldn't have been caring for the children alone--and he was told this. He didn't want the doctors to make her better so much as he wanted the doctors to make her a wife who could take on all the childcare.

Edit: clarification

[lilwriter85]

I agree Rusty Yates has a lot of blame in this. I also heard the same things another poster mentioned about him not wanting Andrea to be around other people. I believe that aspect was brought up in the trial. Did the Yates also live in a RV for awhile? Another poster menitoned a bus, but I kind of remember hearing about an RV.

I did hear about Rusty remarrying and having a child, but I didn't hear anything about him being in law school.

[Conuly]

As a group, people with mental illness are less likely, statistically, to be violent than the general population is.

And they're much more likely to be the victims of violence as well. This brings us back to Andrea Yates, victim of an abusive husband, one with the convenient excuse to push off anything she said to anybody - "Well, she's crazy. No, really!"

I also heard the same things another poster mentioned about him not wanting Andrea to be around other people.

Isolating your partner from friends, family, and society is a classic move by abusers. Heck, it's crucial to the whole thing, because if your mom or your boss or your friend can keep on saying "That's not right, that's not right" it might all fall apart!

[MaroonMandy]

A lot of fundies remind me of this. Who's that one strange woman who only feeds her kids raw vegetables and lives in a van with almost no possessions and a legal husband who mysteriously never gets mentioned on the blog? Yeah, I worry about her.

The infuriating thing about the Yates case is that she was apparently showing some improvement with medication, but her husband forced her to stop taking it so he could get her knocked up again.

:shock: Anyone have a link to this blog?

[Beb]

I always go back and forth with the Yates case.

I'm very big on personal responsibility and don't believe someone should be held accountable for someone else's actions, even if they told that person to do them. Rusty Yates and his pastor telling Andrea to be submissive and to keep pumping out kids does not make them responsible for her choosing to actually do so. Last I checked, no one held a gun to her head (and no, I don't consider "a big, invisible old man who lives in the clouds will be angry at you if you don't" to be a significant enough threat to justify removing Andrea’s agency as though she were a child) Now, is Rusty Yates responsible in that he left his children in the care of a dangerous person? Absolutely.

I tend to lean towards Andrea being responsible because, even though she was clearly out of her mind at the time of the killings, she chose to go off her meds, which she knew (or should have known) would make her a danger. It's no different than a violent schizophrenic who, when he is medicated and thus of sound mind, THEN chooses to stop taking his meds even though he knows he's likely to hurt or kill someone. Even though Andrea was insane when she killed her kids, she wasn’t when she chose to stop her medication.

Basically, I think they're equally responsible. They both should have been able to foresee the inevitable results of their actions.

I've always been conflicted about this case. Andrea was obviously extremely mentally ill, but the torture (yes, torture) and trauma she inflicted on those children is beyond comprehensible.

This is a small description of the deaths of her children.

She had gotten out of bed around 8:10 and had waited for her husband, Rusty, to leave for work at nine. The children were all awake and eating cereal. Andrea had some, too. Once Rusty was gone, Andrea went into the bathroom to turn on the water and fill the tub. The water came within three inches from the top.

Then one by one, she drowned three of her sons, Luke, age 2; Paul, age 3; and John, age 5. She put them in facedown and held them as they struggled. As each one died, she then placed him face up on a bed, still wet, and then covered all three with a sheet. Each had struggled just a few minutes. Next was six-month-old Mary, the youngest, who had been in the bathroom all this time, sitting on the floor in her bassinet and crying. When Andrea was finished with Mary, she left her floating in the water and called to her oldest son, Noah.

He came right away. "What happened to Mary?" he asked. Then apparently realizing what his mother was doing, he ran from the bathroom but Andrea chased him down and dragged him back to the tub. She forced him in face down and drowned him right next to Mary. She admitted in her confession that he had put up the biggest struggle of all. At times he managed to slip from her grasp and get some air, but she always managed to push him back down. His last words were, “I’m sorry.†She left him there floating in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, where police found him. She lifted Mary out and placed her on the bed with her other brothers. Andrea gently covered her before calling the police and her husband. It was time.

Now, for a mother to "chase down her child" to kill him, and not only that, but to continue to push him down and then leave him floating in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit--which is what happens when people die traumatically-- is simply .....well, I can't find words.

If she was guillty, so was her husband. (Many here have said that.) Therefore, if she was mentally ill, so is her husband. Where is the "sympathy" for him? I believe they are both mentally unhinged, and I also believe other fundie families are probably similarly affected. It's surprising we don't hear of more of these tragic circumstances.

I pity Andrea Yates, but I can hardly bear the images of her childen struggling to live and being callously murdered by their own mother.

For an in-depth narrative of the case:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/2.html

[CanadianHippie]

I've always been conflicted about this case. Andrea was obviously extremely mentally ill, but the torture (yes, torture) and trauma she inflicted on those children is beyond comprehensible.

This is a small description of the deaths of her children.

Now, for a mother to "chase down her child" to kill him, and not only that, but to continue to push him down and then leave him floating in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit--which is what happens when people die traumatically-- is simply .....well, I can't find words.

If she was guillty, so was her husband. (Many here have said that.) Therefore, if she was mentally ill, so is her husband. Where is the "sympathy" for him? I believe they are both mentally unhinged, and I also believe other fundie families are probably similarly affected. It's surprising we don't hear of more of these tragic circumstances.

I pity Andrea Yates, but I can hardly bear the images of her childen struggling to live and being callously murdered by their own mother.

For an in-depth narrative of the case:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/2.html

Sorry, but her husband was not the one hearing voices tell him to kill the children to save their souls. He was not the one whom the doctors said could not be left alone, and he was not the one who the doctors said needed to stop having kids. Andrea was, and Rusty was the one who was fully capable of making decisions and decided to ignore the doctors. Being an ignorant asshole is not the same as having postpartum psychosis. Rusty doesn't deserve sympathy.

[hathorlive]

For me, the extra tragedy besides the not letting her take the proper medication and forcing her to have more babies, was then in turn forcing her to home school them. This ensured that she never got a break from any of the kids and that her life was a constant round of child care giving. I know a lot of new mothers who just want an hour away to sit and think. This woman was disturbed and yet no one helped her get time alone.

I hold Rusty more responsible than Andrea because he was the one in control, in so many ways. Like Jim Bob, he had a number of babies in his head and damn it, Andrea was going to provide them. None of these men care about what repeated childbirth does to a woman. None of them care about the health risks. It's a compulsion for them to breed and they don't care about the consequences.

[longskirtlotsakids]

THis is an inherently sexist society the way it lets men off. If this had been the other way around- that the Dad was severly mentally ill and the mother was the supervising sane parent- you can bet she would have served time. What Rusty did is called "failure to protect" and it's one of the most common reason women lose their kids to foster care. They fail to protect the children from a boyfriend who is a known child abuser or sex offender. Happens all the time.

THing is. we are so used to men being the abuser that we are more likely to just accept it and not punish them.

I too would like the link to the raw food van living fundy mom.

ALso- any of you guys remember the case of David and Kyndra Fink, the young fundy couple who almost starved their children to death? They fed their son a raw food diet and he was only 16 pounds at 2 years of age. He was taken into emergency foster care and put into a hospital for malnutrition, where Kyndra and Davis kidnapped him. Then they escaped into the wilderness in the middle of winter. They found the guy because he hitch hiked into some town so he could get a McDonalds cheeseburger and a beer. They arrested him, and when he realized that his wife and kids were going to die if he didn't reveal the location, he took them back to the campsite. It was around 0 degrees, the starving 2 year old and a three day old baby and the mom were in a TENT with no food.

It's asshats like Rusty and David that convince me that feminism is SO IMPORTANT for young ladies today. Girls need to learn from day one that they have every right to NOT do what some man tells them to. More often than not the man could never live under the conditions he is imposing on his wife and kids.

[Beb]

Sorry, but her husband was not the one hearing voices tell him to kill the children to save their souls. He was not the one whom the doctors said could not be left alone, and he was not the one who the doctors said needed to stop having kids. Andrea was, and Rusty was the one who was fully capable of making decisions and decided to ignore the doctors. Being an ignorant asshole is not the same as having postpartum psychosis. Rusty doesn't deserve sympathy.

And he also was not the one who unfeelingly killed his children, leaving his son in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, brought on by the trauma of death.

I realize Andrea was mentally ill, but her asshole husband is the epitome of fundiness. If he should be held accountable for his wife's actions, then this should open the door to investigating other fundies whose lifestyles are very similar to the Yates' lifestyle was.

My sympathies lie with the innocent victims, and they are potentially present in many fundy homes.

[CanadianHippie]

And he also was not the one who unfeelingly killed his children, leaving his son in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, brought on by the trauma of death.

I realize Andrea was mentally ill, but her asshole husband is the epitome of fundiness. If he should be held accountable for his wife's actions, then this should open the door to investigating other fundies whose lifestyles are very similar to the Yates' lifestyle was.

My sympathies lie with the innocent victims, and they are potentially present in many fundy homes.

Andrea was a victim. If Rusty weren't such an ass, and had made different choices, none of this would have happened. All he had to do was make sure someone was home with Andrea and the kids, and he didn't even think that was ok, because in his mind she just need to suck it up and stop bitching.

[Almost Quiverfull]

When this story hit the news I remember hearing about the preacher that had perhaps influenced this family so much. His name was Michael Woroniecki (probably not spelled right). Anyway, I read that it was actually Andrea who was so obsessed with him much to Rusty's dismay. She was the one who wanted to follow Woroniecki's teachings.

Granted Rusty should never have left Andrea alone with the children. His mother was supposed to be there that morning and he thought they would be alright for an hour or so. I'm sure he regrets that decision to this day.

I could never understand why Rusty and Andrea continued to have children even after it became clear that she was not well at all. At one point they were living in an RV with a couple of small children. Some family members stepped in and persuaded him to buy her a house in the hopes it would help her.

[sassyNoz47]

She knew the oldest would be hard for her to carry to the bed once he was dead she knew he would fight it the most, she saved him for last so that she could just leave his body in the tub. Someone convinced her she was a horrible mother and her children would pay for her bad mothering by not going to heaven. I beleive she killed them before the age of judgement because then she was assured they would still get into Heaven.

[Guest Anonymous]

She knew the oldest would be hard for her to carry to the bed once he was dead she knew he would fight it the most, she saved him for last so that she could just leave his body in the tub. Someone convinced her she was a horrible mother and her children would pay for her bad mothering by not going to heaven. I beleive she killed them before the age of judgement because then she was assured they would still get into Heaven.

What haunts me about this is the psychic horror that John, age 5 and Noah, age 7, must have undergone in their final minutes alive. At their ages, they were old enough to understand what was happening. To know that their mother intended to kill them, and that there was nothing they could do about it-I can't imagine anything worse!

[ADoyle90815]

What haunts me about this is the psychic horror that John, age 5 and Noah, age 7, must have undergone in their final minutes alive. At their ages, they were old enough to understand what was happening. To know that their mother intended to kill them, and that there was nothing they could do about it-I can't imagine anything worse!

That is what I find so disturbing about that case, is what the oldest children must have gone through, when they realized that their mother was going to kill them.

[HOTW]

I remember my feelings at this case was the Husband was ultimately at fault because he knew she was a danger and one of my first feeling was he didn;t really caree about her.I told my family that I bet he would dump her and remarry and i don;t think it took him long to do so. Now of course he makes out liek he is so wronged by the whole thing but he came across totally as an unfeeling ass back then. I felt he should have gottne some blame!

[Gizmola]

Granted Rusty should never have left Andrea alone with the children. His mother was supposed to be there that morning and he thought they would be alright for an hour or so. I'm sure he regrets that decision to this day.

I've seen this written several times about the case:

] He had announced at a family gathering the weekend before the drownings that he had decided to leave her home alone for an hour each morning and evening, so that she would not become totally dependent on him and his mother for her maternal responsibilities

THAT is why he is responsible. Everyone possible told him that she was not stable and should not be left alone with the children. He decided she was shirking her responsibilities as a mother, etc.

Yes, the kids were innocent. Their deaths were tragic and horrific. But recognizing that Andrea was very, very mentally ill and not in any way in her right mind when it happened does not negate the sympathy one feels for the children. It is simply allowing oneself to extend sympathy to her as well.

I have a problem with people who look at someone who is deeply, irrecoverably mentally ill and says, "yeah, yeah, they're ill BUT what they did was so bad that it doesn't matter, they should still fry." It's just another example of how unaccepted and stigmatized mental illness is, as well as highlights how most people honestly think that people who are mentally ill should just "snap out of it.'

[Lillybee]

I remember when this happened, I saw the pictures of the children. I thought that the two oldest boys had false smiles and wondered if they were being biblically disclipined.

This was before I heard of the Pearls.

[Beb]

I've seen this written several times about the case:

THAT is why he is responsible. Everyone possible told him that she was not stable and should not be left alone with the children. He decided she was shirking her responsibilities as a mother, etc.

Yes, the kids were innocent. Their deaths were tragic and horrific. But recognizing that Andrea was very, very mentally ill and not in any way in her right mind when it happened does not negate the sympathy one feels for the children. It is simply allowing oneself to extend sympathy to her as well.

I have a problem with people who look at someone who is deeply, irrecoverably mentally ill and says, "yeah, yeah, they're ill BUT what they did was so bad that it doesn't matter, they should still fry." It's just another example of how unaccepted and stigmatized mental illness is, as well as highlights how most people honestly think that people who are mentally ill should just "snap out of it.'

I don't understand this: Andrea called her husband and said, "I did it." According to the transcripts, she was not sorry, nor was she fearful. Husband's reply, "which one?" She said, "All the children."

The wording is odd. Did they both plan these murders, with him knowing she was disturbed and that she would someday go over the edge, thus giving him a way out? Maybe he didn't know she would murder them all but maybe one?

I believe Andrea Yates knowingly murdered her children, and that these murders were brought on by stress, anger, and a religious fanatacism which guided her. She was not afraid of the consequences and, in fact, was relieved, saying, "Satan left after the killings."

Most people who are this stressed kill themselves. It appears she was manipulative enough to kill others rather than herself because she was not afraid of her own soul and loved her own life. She was fearful for her children's souls and their damnation to hell.

From that, I think both Andrea and Rusty are guilty.

Now, as for mental illness....from everything known and observable about Rusty, he would seem to suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder Syndrome--a mental illness resulting many times in murder/suicide, but if not that, all sorts of other crimes and ill deeds against society.

Clinical Symptoms for an Antisocial Personality Disorder Diagnosis

1. Failure to conform to social norms; 2. Deceitfulness, manipulativeness; 3. Impulsivity, failure to plan ahead; 4. Irritability, aggressiveness; 5. Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others; 6. Consistent irresponsibility; 7. Lack of remorse after having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person

Why would Rusty's possible mental illness not receive the understanding and sympathy that PPP does? When men who suffer from this mental illness snap and kill their families, sometimes along with themselves, it rarely does not have the sympathy of society.

[amydamy]

I don't understand this: Andrea called her husband and said, "I did it." According to the transcripts, she was not sorry, nor was she fearful. Husband's reply, "which one?" She said, "All the children."

The wording is odd. Did they both plan these murders, with him knowing she was disturbed and that she would someday go over the edge, thus giving him a way out? Maybe he didn't know she would murder them all but maybe one?

I believe Andrea Yates knowingly murdered her children, and that these murders were brought on by stress, anger, and a religious fanatacism which guided her. She was not afraid of the consequences and, in fact, was relieved, saying, "Satan left after the killings."

Most people who are this stressed kill themselves. It appears she was manipulative enough to kill others rather than herself because she was not afraid of her own soul and loved her own life. She was fearful for her children's souls and their damnation to hell.

From that, I think both Andrea and Rusty are guilty.

Now, as for mental illness....from everything known and observable about Rusty, he would seem to suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder Syndrome--a mental illness resulting many times in murder/suicide, but if not that, all sorts of other crimes and ill deeds against society.

Why would Rusty's possible mental illness not receive the understanding and sympathy that PPP does? When men who suffer from this mental illness snap and kill their families, sometimes along with themselves, it rarely does not have the sympathy of society.

The difference is you just diagnosed Rusty - Andrea was diagnosed by several mental health professionals.

Do you understand what psychosis is? It's not depression or hallucinations it's a break with reality.

[Gizmola]

I don't understand this: Andrea called her husband and said, "I did it." According to the transcripts, she was not sorry, nor was she fearful. Husband's reply, "which one?" She said, "All the children."

The wording is odd. Did they both plan these murders, with him knowing she was disturbed and that she would someday go over the edge, thus giving him a way out? Maybe he didn't know she would murder them all but maybe one?

I think you may be reading too much into their exchange.

As for her being sorry - she was psychotic. Do you really equate her lack of remorse to what it would mean should you or I not show remorse in that situation? I mean, do you really think that she didn't care or that she wasn't "fearful" because she's just evil? Or have you never had any experience with someone in your life who's been mentally ill and you just don't understand that mental illness is as real and as debilitating as physical illness?

I believe Andrea Yates knowingly murdered her children, and that these murders were brought on by stress, anger, and a religious fanatacism which guided her. She was not afraid of the consequences and, in fact, was relieved, saying, "Satan left after the killings."

You keep missing the most vital point: she was psychotic. She wasn't just some overwhelmed mom who was just pissed off at her kids and then used religious wackiness to justify offing her kids. She was psychotic. Do you know what that means and how that truly fucks up someone's ability to relate to reality in any meaningful way?

Yep, she probably "knew" she shouldn't kill the kids. Or maybe she just knew enough to know Randy and others wouldn't agree, but the voices, the PSYCHOSIS telling her she needed to do it was stronger than anything else.

Do I think she's blameless? Yes and no. She is guilty of not standing up to Rusty and telling him she'd rather take her medication than have more children. But she is not guilty of killing her children in cold blood in the way you have described. The woman really was not in touch with reality. Many psychiatrists and other doctors have testified to this with greater accuracy and greater knowledge than have you.

I know I'm being rather defensive here but I AM mentally ill and I get really sick of people who think that someone using a true mental illness to avoid prison time is just getting off scot free. This woman will be institutionalized for the rest of her life. Now, if she were on medication and deemed "stable" would I allow her to babysit my dogs (have no children)? Hell no. But I'm sane enough to know what my limits are and how to manage being bipolar. She's not able to manage her illness on her own and probably never will be, from what I've read.

[Conuly]

I get really sick of people who think that someone using a true mental illness to avoid prison time is just getting off scot free. This woman will be institutionalized for the rest of her life.

Indeed. To tangent, the insanity plea is rarely used (far less often than most people realize), even more rarely successful (hardly ever, actually), and doesn't exactly "let anybody off". They still get locked up, just in a treatment center instead of a prison. Not much of a difference, really. And those treatment centers aren't exactly the Arkham Asylum. There's no revolving door on them. Andrea Yates won't be out on a technicality, ready to menace Gotham City's kids all over again by the next commercial break.

[lilwriter85]

THis is an inherently sexist society the way it lets men off. If this had been the other way around- that the Dad was severly mentally ill and the mother was the supervising sane parent- you can bet she would have served time. What Rusty did is called "failure to protect" and it's one of the most common reason women lose their kids to foster care. They fail to protect the children from a boyfriend who is a known child abuser or sex offender. Happens all the time.

THing is. we are so used to men being the abuser that we are more likely to just accept it and not punish them.

I too would like the link to the raw food van living fundy mom.

ALso- any of you guys remember the case of David and Kyndra Fink, the young fundy couple who almost starved their children to death? They fed their son a raw food diet and he was only 16 pounds at 2 years of age. He was taken into emergency foster care and put into a hospital for malnutrition, where Kyndra and Davis kidnapped him. Then they escaped into the wilderness in the middle of winter. They found the guy because he hitch hiked into some town so he could get a McDonalds cheeseburger and a beer. They arrested him, and when he realized that his wife and kids were going to die if he didn't reveal the location, he took them back to the campsite. It was around 0 degrees, the starving 2 year old and a three day old baby and the mom were in a TENT with no food.

It's asshats like Rusty and David that convince me that feminism is SO IMPORTANT for young ladies today. Girls need to learn from day one that they have every right to NOT do what some man tells them to. More often than not the man could never live under the conditions he is imposing on his wife and kids.

I remember the Fink case, wasn't there a similar case in which another couple had their kids on a raw food vegan diet and one of the kids died?