Evolutionary Teaching Has Made Europeans Less Religious

[debrand]

So, all you Europeans need to stop teaching evolution so that people will go back to church!

tomorrowsforefathers.com/gracenotes/

“Most young people in Europe don’t really care about religion,†the European students told me over dinner, explaining how empty the large church buildings are on Sunday mornings. I acknowledged I had heard similar reports.

“I think one reason for that is evolutionary teaching,†I told them, “Because if people believe that they evolved, and science has disproven the Bible, how can they really believe it?â€

“I was taught evolution, but I don’t see a contradiction between evolution and the Bible,†one of them said. “I just take the beginning of Genesis metaphorically.â€

(This is a common belief in America as well, of course, but it is a direct attack on the reliability of Scripture.)

I explained how many Christians who are also scientists teach how the Bible and science are consistent. I told them how we run a bookstore in town that carries about 350 titles of these kind of books. (Books on creation science in every area of science and on every level, from first grade to PhD.), explaining that “We (Creationists) look at the same evidence as evolutionists do, but come to different conclusions because we start with different presuppositions. For example, we believe Noah’s flood explains a lot of things — like canyons. People who believe the earth is millions of years old believe that canyons formed over long periods of time. But we believe they happened quickly by the huge amount of water during the flood.â€

I'm starting two threads on this one article because she touched on a seperate subject that interests me too.

[Soldier of the One]

Oh dear, Bad Theology strikes again!

I don't even know where to start pointing out the logical fallacies. So evolution causes decline of church attendance in Europe (or anywhere else?).

This kind of knee-jerk thinking always places the blame squarely with someone else, rather than religious communities (of which I am part) critically assess themselves and see how they might be falling short.

Most of the religious people around me have no problem accepting modern explanations for the origins of species alongside a deep love and reference for the Bible. There are so many layers on which we can read the Bible, and 'Biblical literalism' is only the most superficial layer. Getting stuck on literalism and trying to ram a Creationist round peg into a scientific round hole, does no-one any good and sells the nuance and depth of the Bible short.

The six day account in Genesis is about so much more than 'Creationism'. It's about the cyclical nature of time, about rest and restoration, about work and creativity, about the breath-taking beauty of the natural world and most of all, about seeking answers on how affirm a this-worldly existence while pursuing holiness at the same time. What it isn't about is about whether c14 dating is accurate and whether the world is more than 6000 years old. The Book of Genesis is a beautiful commentary on the human condition and anyone who misses that, misses a really big point of the Biblical canon.

If anything, the intricacies of our cosmos as revealed by science strengthens my faith rather than weakening it - because science has a way of demonstrating that Nature/God's Creation/Divine Emanation is even more awe-inspiring than we thought it ever might be.

So no. Let's not make this about science. But rather about sociology and about what people need in a post-industrial world and whether conventional churches are able to provide them with that.

[debrand]

I think that people loose the point the early writers were trying to make when they read the creation account as literal instead of an allegory. There is something very beautiful about saying that even god wants you to rest and not work your entire life away.

[Constance Vigilance]

a) To the article writer: I think you'll find that embracing a view of the world based on reason and knowledge instead of fear, hatred and superstition lead both to the development of the theory of evolution and to people becoming less religious. They are both results of the same cause, not causes of each other. Now people who feel called to be religious can be so, and the rest of us have a choice.

b) Agreed that the idea of a rest day is lovely. That is something I like about organised religion. (Though obviously not the enforcement of rules concerning it, assuming others will have the same sabbath as you, etc.)

Edited 27 times for clarification, and in the name of freedom.

[Soldier of the One]

Edited 27 times for clarification, and in the name of freedom.

Because riffles are the oppressor! :lol:

Yeah well... actually, I am not all that interested in the question of 'religion' versus 'science'. Science explains the how's, religion gives meaning to the why's. They are two different functions and that's OK. Somehow, this point of view is lost on fundamentalists.

I know atheists who are superstitious and believe in astrology and I know hard-core scientist theists and everything in between. Reading the Bible literally loses all the depth of its meaning. And as a Jew, I can totally vouch for the Awesomeness that is the Sabbath.

I heart the book of Genesis <3

[MamaJunebug]

Just my family history, but I'd say a lot of the rejection of religion began when religion began to equal The State. And I'm not just referring to the Holy Roman Empire. In Germany, churches were an arm of the government as far back as the early 1800s. That sort of combination of state and church can produce* a take-it-or-leave-it church with the same attitude toward religion in general.

*I said "can produce." I'm certain that in some cases (maybe many cases) that hasn't been the outcome.

I post mainly to scoff at the idea that evolutionary theory can be the cause of disinterest in religion, where the religion is taught properly.

JM(strongly-held)HO

[MamaJunebug]

a)

b) Agreed that the idea of a rest day is lovely. That is something I like about organised religion. (Though obviously not the enforcement of rules concerning it, assuming others will have the same sabbath as you, etc.)

Ooo, what a thought! Three days of rest every week!!! Friday for Islam, Saturday for Judaism and the Seventh-day Adventist church, Sunday for Christianity.

That leaves a four-day work week! Like it! Like it!! :clap:

[Turtle]

Pope Benedict (then Cardinal Ratzinger) wrote "In the Beginning" which discusses how evolution and the creation story are not mutually exclusive...and I'd say he is pretty "religious".

Wrong kind of religious I guess...

[O Latin]

These people who are always going on about how "Europe is less religious! Oh, no!" make me want to smack them over the head with a book on European history.

[Terrie]

Well, obviously, if the church in question clings to creationism like a security blanket, than, yes, learning about evolution will undermine church attendance. Personally, I always cringe when creationists start talking about the "belief" in evolution. It's like saying "Do you believe the color of the sky is caused by the bending of light in our atmosphere, or do you think God painted it that color because He thought it looked pretty?"

[Sunnichick31]

Ooo, what a thought! Three days of rest every week!!! Friday for Islam, Saturday for Judaism and the Seventh-day Adventist church, Sunday for Christianity.

That leaves a four-day work week! Like it! Like it!! :clap:

And I'm pretty sure that Pastafarians go worship at Olive Garden on Mondays and Johnny Carino's on Thursdays, so that just leaves Tuesday and Wednesday. :)

[Constance Vigilance]

And I'm pretty sure that Pastafarians go worship at Olive Garden on Mondays and Johnny Carino's on Thursdays, so that just leaves Tuesday and Wednesday. :)

So really, doing any work at all ever is blasphemous is what I'm hearing, yeah?

Excellent. I'll start pouring drinks. (Shirley Temples available on request)

[emmiedahl]

Pope John Paul II said regarding evolution and the Bible that truth cannot contradict truth. That is, we need to make room in our tiny human brains for both religion and science.

I agree with the poster above who said that science is the how and religion is the why. And I also feel that reading the Bible as a literal document is impossible. Too much cognitive dissonance, to begin with!

The Europeans I know consider religion a fairy tale and that is okay. It has no effect on my personal faith. I guess Jews are used to being in the religious minority, so we have a different perspective. I interact all day, every day with people who believe differently and I still cling to my faith. Maybe Christians are afraid of being a minority because they know how they personally have treated religious minorities in the past.

[Constance Vigilance]

I'm trying to think how to express what I meant.

I think many people are naturally religious. And many people are not. So when religion was all-powerful and humankind had no other explanation for how the world worked, many people who were not naturally religious were scared or coerced into practicing (thus the "fear, hatred and superstition") and so almost everyone was "religious".

Now that Europe is governed less by religion and more by science/reason/knowledge (at least in theory), those who were always going to be religious can do so freely, and those who weren't are spared the coercion into belief.

Does that make more sense? I am totes not trying to get down on religion, just on church=state and all the harm it caused. I don't see any harm in that situation ending at all.

Edited for clarification, obvs.

[emmiedahl]

It makes complete sense, CV, and I agree.

[Soldier of the One]

I completely agree too. Some people are 'wired' to be religious and others are not and both are equally valid positions and experiences.

This is one of the many reasons why your garden variety atheism just doesn't bother me.

[YPestis]

I once dated a medical resident who was Canadian and went to school in Canada. When he came to the US for training, he was shocked that there were people who still believed in creationism and refused to "believe" evolution because it contradicted their reading of the Bible. He said that attitude is just so rare in Canada but appeared very prevalent where we were at (conservative flyover country).

The resident was particularly aghast when an intern told him he was a biblical literalistic. So he asked the intern how he treats MRSA if he doesn't "believe" in evolution as MRSA, by definition, is staph aureus that evolved resistance to beta-lactam antibiotics over the recent use of the medications.

The intern replied, "I understand evolution and use the concepts at work to practice medicine. When I'm home, I take the doctor's hat off and read the Bible literally". He acknowledged this cognitive dissonance and adapted split personality to reconcile his upbringing with his profession. It was weird that the man understood and saw the evolution concepts applied in his profession yet choose to ignore it. I guess it was easier than having to rethink his world view and think outside of his comfort zone.

I will say that I've never met any med student, resident or attending who think like that. Even the very conservative students we have have a good grasp of evolution. Half the class were biology majors so you can't avoid the subject! I think that's what scares fundies....that education and an actual understanding of the subject would turn people away from the Church because it meant they no longer read the Bible as fundies----and fundies believe theirs' is the only way to worship God.

[emmiedahl]

I have a former study partner who is fundie-lite and just got accepted to one med school (she had the interview at UW and is still waiting! I am on pins and needles for her!) and she said that she believes in micro-evolution within species but not in evolution as an origin of species. It's a little shocking! But she does not believe that teh gayz are going to hell.

[YPestis]

I have a former study partner who is fundie-lite and just got accepted to one med school (she had the interview at UW and is still waiting! I am on pins and needles for her!) and she said that she believes in micro-evolution within species but not in evolution as an origin of species. It's a little shocking! But she does not believe that teh gayz are going to hell.

There's no clear delineation between micro and macro evolution. If she believes that, then she doesn't understand the theory of evolution at all. Mutations over time leads to speciation. I don't know if she is a biology major but in med school, she will likely encounters lectures which discusses evolution and utilize the concept. One can become a doctor and still hold on to irrational ideas but maybe she'll open her mind up and realize that evolution doesn't destroy anyone's spiritual beliefs.

[Aurora]

I once dated a medical resident who was Canadian and went to school in Canada. When he came to the US for training, he was shocked that there were people who still believed in creationism and refused to "believe" evolution because it contradicted their reading of the Bible. He said that attitude is just so rare in Canada but appeared very prevalent where we were at (conservative flyover country).

The resident was particularly aghast when an intern told him he was a biblical literalistic. So he asked the intern how he treats MRSA if he doesn't "believe" in evolution as MRSA, by definition, is staph aureus that evolved resistance to beta-lactam antibiotics over the recent use of the medications.

The intern replied, "I understand evolution and use the concepts at work to practice medicine. When I'm home, I take the doctor's hat off and read the Bible literally". He acknowledged this cognitive dissonance and adapted split personality to reconcile his upbringing with his profession. It was weird that the man understood and saw the evolution concepts applied in his profession yet choose to ignore it. I guess it was easier than having to rethink his world view and think outside of his comfort zone.

I will say that I've never met any med student, resident or attending who think like that. Even the very conservative students we have have a good grasp of evolution. Half the class were biology majors so you can't avoid the subject! I think that's what scares fundies....that education and an actual understanding of the subject would turn people away from the Church because it meant they no longer read the Bible as fundies----and fundies believe theirs' is the only way to worship God.

I agree that the attitude is probably more rare in Canada - but it is also probably spreading. We have fundie Bible colleges, churches, etc, up here as well, and I think I've heard there are even a couple of Creation museums.

In undergrad, I even had an acquaintance who didn't believe in evolution, this was in the population biology section of a 100- or 200-level biology class (that means freshman/sophomore for the Americans)! She said she wasn't going to take the evolution class that biology majors usually have to take. I forget how she was going to get around the requirement. :?

[Constance Vigilance]

In undergrad, I even had an acquaintance who didn't believe in evolution, this was in the population biology section of a 100- or 200-level biology class (that means freshman/sophomore for the Americans)! She said she wasn't going to take the evolution class that biology majors usually have to take. I forget how she was going to get around the requirement. :?

My sweet giddy aunt. If you don't believe in Biology, don't take Biology as a major. How is that hard?

I can't believe how people manage to not "believe" in evolution when the evidence is literally all around us every day. It's like not "believing" in gravity; it changes nothing and just makes you look like an idiot.

People who don't believe in evolution are in my "too stupid to debate" pile. I've never met one in real ife, but I don't think I'd be able to keep a straight face.

[Aurora]

My sweet giddy aunt. If you don't believe in Biology, don't take Biology as a major. How is that hard?

I can't believe how people manage to not "believe" in evolution when the evidence is literally all around us every day. It's like not "believing" in gravity; it changes nothing and just makes you look like an idiot.

People who don't believe in evolution are in my "too stupid to debate" pile. I've never met one in real ife, but I don't think I'd be able to keep a straight face.

I know! I was pretty shocked to find that attitude in a Biology major. I've been racking my brain, but can't remember what her career plan was. I wonder if she maybe ended up teaching at a Christian college or something? I didn't keep in touch with her after that, we had no more classes together, and I don't think I ran into any more obviously-religious folks in school. Obviously meaning obvious enough that the topic of religion would come up in a casual conversation about science!

I've never really had to debate "creationists" either, although I suppose I should bone up on some arguments in case the subject comes up; after all, they study their field of "apologetics" intensely.

[Lainey]

*sigh*

I am Canadian, and I can confirm there are a distressing number of creationists up here. :( I can think of three creationist friends off the top of my head. I wish I could say it was just an Alberta thing, but one is from Alberta, one is from Saskatchewan, and one is from Indonesia.

Oddly, I never encountered that mindset until I moved to the city. My home municipality is full of Sunday Catholics mostly. ;) Much less weird, imo.

And yes, we have creation museums, but ours are small and pathetic, not shiny and animatronic like the one in Kentucky.

[Stickers]

“I think one reason for that is evolutionary teaching,†I told them, “Because if people believe that they evolved, and science has disproven the Bible, how can they really believe it?â€

I agree with him, on a personal level. The bolded is why I became an atheist. Not sure if that's the case for all the Europeans he's talking about :lol: , but I do know the same is true for other people. Learning about history and other cultures also plays a role in some peoples rejection of religion. Maybe we should stop teaching that too?

Is it even true Europe is getting widely less religious?