Recovering from a patriarchal childhood

[deelaem]

For my benefit (since you apparently already have a mental list), let's hear how it IS suppressive, and go from there. That way, we aren't starting from scratch.

Translation - I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'm throwing it back on the other person.

[tehgoobster]

For my benefit (since you apparently already have a mental list), let's hear how it IS suppressive, and go from there. That way, we aren't starting from scratch.

AKDA, I asked you questions on page three regarding your views on patriarchy. I would be interested in reading your answers because my questions were definitely related to whether it's oppressive and whether it enables oppression. I think that it would be difficult to discuss patriarchy with you without first knowing where you stand on the issues I raised in my questions.

[emmiedahl]

Let me name the ways that patriarchy hurts women:

1. Substandard education, as seen in the type of education fundamentalist girls are given along with the resulting women who cannot string a sentence together.

2. Training that leads to the inability to hold a job. Even when your husband won't. And that means that they cannot leave a bad situation because they need to feed the kids after all.

3. A church that believes women should be submissive to the man of the house, even if he is abusive or a poor decision maker or just plain stupid. In fact, when the man is any of the above, the patriarchal leaders tend to blame the woman for not being submissive enough.

4. Abusive religion that teaches you are going to hell if you do not find a way to love all of the above.

[Brainsample]

AKDA, I asked you questions on page three regarding your views on patriarchy. I would be interested in reading your answers because my questions were definitely related to whether it's oppressive and whether it enables oppression. I think that it would be difficult to discuss patriarchy with you without first knowing where you stand on the issues I raised in my questions.

At my old church, patriarchy was used to get women to tolerate abuse. I don't know if they wore nailpolish or not, but what shade would you wear if you were CR when you went to the church to tell them about your husband? I wonder what shade DM wore when her husband it her. Or what another DM wore when she confronted him about the porn on his computer that the pastors insisted didn't exist, blaming the wife. Or when they told another that it was a duty to love her husband with "ooey gooey love" and to let love cover his multitude of sins against her in their marriage. She was supposed to trust God and pray for healing -- to have no concern about the STDs her husband was passing on to her according to the pastor's wife. It was, after all, her duty to submit to him. And then there was TM whose husband was permitted to remain an elder after he hit her around. She didn't wear nail polish. If she did, it was that French manicure type. Maybe I dreamed all of that up. Oh, yeah. And how patriarchy's interpretation on Scripture was used to justify how it was alright for KW to remain locked in her basement all day because her husband wanted her down there and confined. Someone please tell me where I can get something to wipe my memory and get a lobotomy, because that's what it will take for me to believe that this ideology is not corrupt. We had a large church, and I could care less what people do in private and how they live their lives and if they have 20 kids if they care well for them. I don't care. What concerns me is the way the ideology is used to justify the sins of men -- sins that put their wives at risk.

And Paige Patterson... He advises women to kneel at the bedside to let their husbands beat them because it apparently magically wins a man to Christ and stops his abusive behavior when he sees that his wife so graciously prays and willingly submits to his beating.

http://www.archive.org/details/PaigePat ... icViolence

I wonder what kind of nail polish Dorothy Patterson wears, Paige's wife? She says that if you submit to your husband, even if you think it's wrong, your sin won't be counted against you. I guess she's all on board with wife beating as a form of evangelism, too. I wonder if Paige approves of nail polish?

And then there is this religious rite of the divine right of the king of the house to use "corporal chastisement." And that women can't vote. And that more educational opportunities should be made available to boys over girls if your resources are limited. And that it's okay that your 13 year old can't read that well and that you learn algebra in a car from your dad between his speaking gigs. And that it's okay that your ten year old daughter can't read if she can do her kingdom mandate of mothering the rest of the household and taking care of the younger ones without help. That's what really counts. And on, and on, and on.

I don't even wear nail polish, but it's far more beneficial to me than hearing someone talk about the virtues of a system that might mean well in theory in the minds of some but is miserable in how it fleshes out.

[Patsy]

Hisey, thank you for admitting that perhaps there are SOME families who believe in Patriarchy who are truely happy. That was my only point.

99%?

[Brainsample]

[Brainsample]

99%?

Godwin:

There were happy families in Nazi Germany, too. Wonderful, godly, lovely families.

The Mormons have lots of them, too. Atheists have them. Should people become athiests or join the Mormons?

Edited: cat

[tehgoobster]

I really like Patriarchy Pepto Pink, Brainsample. :lol:

[Shina]

Brainsample, I love you :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[emmiedahl]

I love how she pops in to ask a question, but never addresses the answers or answers any questions herself.

A habitual flouncer.

Flounce to the left, flounce to the right.

[formergothardite]

For my benefit (since you apparently already have a mental list), let's hear how it IS suppressive, and go from there. That way, we aren't starting from scratch.

Well, just to start, the basis of patriarchy is that women can NEVER be the head of the home. Even if they want to be, even if they are better equipped to do so, they are suppressed from doing it.

Now please explain how that isn't.

[AKDA]

Well, just to start, the basis of patriarchy is that women can NEVER be the head of the home. Even if they want to be, even if they are better equipped to do so, they are suppressed from doing it.

Now please explain how that isn't.

Are you, or do you claim to be, a Christian? If not, then this discussion may as well be over. If you aren't, do you have a problem with Christianity?

This is not a sidestep. I will answer depending on your answer. I have every intention of answering.

[emmiedahl]

Wait a second. You asked how patriarchy suppresses women, and we told you, and you can't give a coherent rebuttal without first knowing our religions??

[Shirley MacLaine]

Are you, or do you claim to be, a Christian? If not, then this discussion may as well be over. If you aren't, do you have a problem with Christianity?

This is not a sidestep. I will answer depending on your answer. I have every intention of answering.

Numerous people are reading, Christians and non-Christians alike. Just answer.

[Guest Anonymous]

Fundies squirm like eels

Use many tone arguments

Put up or shut up

[CanticleoftheTurning]

Fundies squirm like eels

Use many tone arguments

Put up or shut up

:clap:

[formergothardite]

Are you, or do you claim to be, a Christian? If not, then this discussion may as well be over. If you aren't, do you have a problem with Christianity?

This is not a sidestep. I will answer depending on your answer. I have every intention of answering.

The answer shouldn't matter at all based on my religous leaning. Just answer the question, how does telling women that no matter what their dreams or goals that they can never be the head of their household and that they will always be under the authority of either their husband or father not suppress women.

I will, however, say this, anyone here can back up that I have no issue with Christianity. So quit dodging the question and just give an answer.

[formergothardite]

Did she get suddenly "busy" again? LOL

[Shina]

She´s scared of your ebil feminist logic formergothardite.

Oh and AKDA, I ¨claim¨to be a Christian--but I think patriarchy is BS and prooftexting from Ephesians 5:22-25 is NOT changing my mind.

[formergothardite]

I think I know where she is trying to go with it. If I say I am a Christian, she can say, well the Bible says patriarchy is good, so it isn't suppression and if you are a real Christian you will understand that. And if I say I'm not, then she will just say, well I can't explain this to you since you don't know God. It doesn't matter if the Bible does say it, patriarchy still suppresses women, and she claimed that it didn't, so she needs to either admit she is okay with treating women as less than men as long as the Bible says so or own up that she was wrong and patriarchy is bad.

But she could have a whole other thought process going on. I'm sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for her answer. :)

[AKDA]

Well, just to start, the basis of patriarchy is that women can NEVER be the head of the home. Even if they want to be, even if they are better equipped to do so, they are suppressed from doing it.

Now please explain how that isn't.

Ok. You have stated you have no problem with Christianity. If this is truly the case, then you hav no problem with Christians (or anyone, really) following Scripture. The first thing Scripture teaches is that we are not on this world for our own pleasure. We are here for a purpose. That purpose is stated in the Greatest Commandment: to love the Lord they God with all thy heart, soul, strength, and mind.

This means that, no matter what us puny insignificant humans think, feel, or believe, our only duty is to follow the Lord's commands and precepts, and the Lord will grant us all we need or want in the way of fulfillment and joy. Christianity in general in America today will profess this, but does not practice this. Which is why we have as many divorces in the Church as out (this has been proven - no general statement here.) This is why the Church has so much sex and babies out of wedlock, so many families in shambles, and so many children falling away from the faith completely. The Church today is not following the commands which the Gid they claim to worship has laid down. Why?because it is not conveinent to them (probably spelled wrong). It doesn't fit with their ideas, their desires, their worldviews. Thus, they have broken the First and Greatest commandment.

Now, with that said, and knowing your general views on the subject, I'm positive you will disagree with what I'm about to say. However, I don't care. And, in fact, the Bible warns that those who attempt to follow God's laws (even though they are as sinful as anyone else), will be reviled by those who have no desire to do so. I am merely answering out of respect for you as a person asking me a question. You deserve to be answered.

The very body, emotional makeup, and needs of a woman tells anyone with an open mind and sincere curiosity that she is not meant to play the role of a man. She is designed differently. She is given the curse of bearing children, while the man is clearly given the curse of working to support the family. I'm not saying the fruits of their labors are not a blessing. Children are a sure blessing. It is a blessing to a man to see his family grow and prosper under his leadership and labors. But Genisis clearly calls both childbearing and the working to support a family a curse. No two ways around it.

Now, I realize that to some women, their Biblical role seems petty, restrictive, or otherwise undesirable. This is a concern. However, Scripture also tells us that the heart is decietful and desperately wicked. (both regenerate and unregenerate) How are these women - any women - supposed to know what their hearts' desires should be? How do they know if their hearts are in line with God's or if the devil is taking then for a trip down south? They must compare their hearts' desires with Scripture. Psalms says that when you seek the Lord, He will give you the desires He wishes you to have. Our hearts are sinful. Of course, they will have sinful desires and get more and more so, unless the Lord changes them. (Second law of thermodynamics - and there is not a doubt in my mind that I spelled that wrong.) Just like one who is called to the mission field may at first be angry, scared, upset, and not see how in the world they would be good at such a calling, let alone happy will eventually grow to love His calling and be so absoluetly fulfilled and overjoyed in the work, so will a woman when she decides to stop living for herself and actually look into it and see what her Creator intended.

For reasons utterly unkown to us as Humans, this is the way the Lord made male and female. If we are not going to question why He would dare to send His Son to be slaughtered for us, why He would bestow blessings upon us, or any thing with which we may be pleased, we should not question His wisdom in this. Scripture warns us aboutbtaking the good from the Lord and questioning or complaining about the bad. (Please understand, I am wording this from the point of view that I have seen on this thread - not from the point of view of those who the Lord has blessed with this understanding.)

The woman is never to be the head of her household while her husband is there and available. Obviously, if he is off to war, or imprisoned - justly or unjustly - or some other valid reason prevents him from being involved in day to day descisions. (There are comparitively few of these sorts of situations today due to our extensive technologies.) Even in these types of situations, however, the wife is to attempt to follow what she knows to be her husbands will within Biblical guidlines. If a woman's husband dies, it is a matter of situations and discresion on what she should do. Move back to her father's house? Sometimes this is impractical. She must, with her family's help and with the help of her church, decide what is the best course of action. This type of behaviour is very clearly laid out in Scripture. You cannot side step it. You can disregaurd it, but in doing so you make it very apparent to others that you wish to live for yourself and really don't care what Scripture or the Lord says. If that's what you want to do, fine. That's between you and the Lord. Just know that to deliberately cross the Lord is a very dangerous thing to do (in any area of life. This goes for big sins, or small! Me, or you!) I will also add that, many women are more eduacted, better capable, or have better skills for leading a family than her husband. That's wonderful!! The Lord made her that way! That is probably why He gave her to that particular man, so that her talents and skills can be better used than if she were given to a more able man. What does Scripture say a woman was created to be? A helpmeet. Obviously, she has the joy and privelage to use the talents the Lord has given her to help that man in his leading of his family. What better use could she make of those talents than to help another human being fulfil his task given to him by the Lord? The God of the entire universe? That man very obviously needs a special woman, and the Lord has given her to him!!!

I know education is a big thing around here. I know families who could care less about education, and those who nearly worship it. Both inside the VF/ATI world and out. You don't care about the ones out, I understand that, so I won't go into detail about them. Just know that they are there as well. :)

Inside this movement, I have an example. Some girls, some boys, desire higher education, and some don't. Much of the time it has nothing to do with the way they are raised, but their individuality. One family I know, none of the children are getting a higher education. It's not that they can't have it. Even the son. His grandfather (who by the way was not involved in the movement at all and actually thought the family were somewhat folky) gave the eldest son a very large inhertance when he died, some of which could easily have been used for higher education. The son didn't care to further his education. He felt he had all he needed for the time being and instead is directing his life another direction. The girls have money as well, and the family is not badly off, but each of them have decided they do not wish to further their education. One of the younger sons probably will when he gets older. He's that type. The family will have nothing wrong with that and will encourage it.

There is another family I know. The oldest daughter struggled through some parts of highschool, but graduated with flying colors. She was being pressed by family all around - including her parents - to get a college degree. She even took duel enrolment during her highschool years. She now has several credit hours under her belt. It's been 3 years since she graduated. She still hasn't gone on. Why? She didn't want to. Her parents respected that decision, but were dissapointed. The second daughter never took dual enrollment classes. She never cared about anything like that. He parents are respecting that decision. The third daughter has recently graduated and wants to get a master degree. She is being encouraged to do so, and is being helped financially by her grandfather, as her family doesn't have the means. (her grandfather offered to do the same with the others.) The eldest son is a Sr. This year. His parents are really pushing for him to get a degree. The father had quit school at 16 (though after marriage he did get his GED) and sees the value of higher education in order to support a family. The young man is hoping to marry soon, but his parents are strongly, strongly urging him to wait and get a degree. Please understand that with allnof their children, these parents recognize that they are adults and, while still exerting parental authority while the children are under their roof, also respect their opinions and preferences as adults. Conversely, the children recognize that while they are under their parents' roof they are to honour their parents' decisions and preferences. Honour does not always necessarily demand explicit and unquestioned obedience from adults.)

Now, I understand that these are just 2 examples, and anyone of you could probably come ip with 3 or 4 opposite examples to my one (ooops. I'm making general statements again...) But, they ARE 2 examples and I can come up with more. How things appear is not always how things are. Some women in these circles have built up entire businesses on their own within Biblical guidlines, just as their model of a Proverbs 31 woman does. While some families (I'm positive) are feeling the extremes of abuses, this is because there is sin in the world and someone somewhere failed to stop living for themselves and live for God.

I can give Scripture for what I wrote if you wish it, but I'm pretty sure y'all have heard all this before and know what Scripture I would use.

This may seem scattered. I hope not. But, you must confess, I'm having a lot thrown at me from a lot of different people, and having a discussion like this from an iPod touch is not the easiest thing to do. Ho hum.

Did I miss anything?

[emmiedahl]

I thought you were going to tell us how patriarchy does *not* suppress and abuse women? Instead, you have told us why it is okay that patriarchy does so...

[AKDA]

No. That is not suppression and abuse. That is the way God says it is. God says it's not suppresssion and abuse. Either He's a liar, or you need to change your way of thinking. Laura Ingalls didn't think the way her mother lived was abuse and supression. Her mother was perfectly happy. Laura's childhood was so happy she even decided to write a book about it.

I'm still waiting to know how it IS abuse and oppression. Can you tell me how it is?

And by the way, I meant to add earlier that Patriarchy without Biblical guidlines and boundries will be abusive.

[emmiedahl]

I have already told you in at least one message on the board. So have other people. Please read back, it's there, you'll find it.

Laura Ingalls did not live in patriarchy as it is interpreted in modern churches.

[Shina]

AKDA, my dear, God doesn't say jack-shit about patriarchy. The Greatest Commandment is to love God and love others. Period. If you've managed to pull off the cognitive dissonance necessary to make patriarchy a central tenant of Christianity, I can only shake my head.

I'll be praying for you--and for once I don't mean that in the "f**k you" sense.