Recovering from a patriarchal childhood

[browngrl]

Whether or not people are happy in a patriarchal system is moot to me. Not that I think happiness is not important - it is just that i don't think the happy appearance presented on many (?most) fundamentalist blogs is real. I think that many people are angry/sad/frustrated etc but their culture doesn't not either condone or give safe pathways to express unhappiness. Women in particular are told to keep sweet and to be meek and mild and soft spoken. So if a fundie says they are happy - I take that with a grain of salt. Sometimes I can tell this is a lie, sometimes I just don't know if this is the truth.

One of my major problems with patriarchy is that it takes control and choice away from it's members. Women AND men are slotted into roles that may or may not feel right - and if they don't fit - it doesn't matter they are jammed into the role regardless. The other problem I have is : patriarchy and fundamentalism are extreme reactions to life. Extremism in all forms is a troubling prospect for me. Extremism does not allow for any variance from the mean - it is their way or the highway.

When I first started reading on free jinger I remember someone (not sure who) saying "fundies always shit on the rug". I have found this to be true. It doesn't matter how kind/sweet/happy etc fundies seem - sooner or later the fear/hatred/misogyny promoted by their religion aways comes out.

NB: please excuse all grammatical/spelling errors - I am bloated + sleepy from eating a huge quantify of Diwali treats (edited to add "+")

[Doomed Harlottt]

In terms of the original post, my father sounds a lot like Rebelsaint's and Bananacat's and Boltingmadonna's. My family was completely secular and did not officially subscribe to any patriarchal ideology, but my father ruled the family with an iron fist. He trafficked in control and humiliation. But I also had the same experience as Bananacat of being seen as sort of an extension of my father, which I think helped me become a bit more independent-minded than if I had been forced into a wholly subservient role based on gender. But still, a lot of what the patriarchal fundies do resonates with me even though my family wasn't fundie.

When I discovered narcissistic personality disorder a few years ago, it rocked my world. The diagnosis described my father to a "t" - the grandiosity and the lack of empathy in particular! My father was also physically and mentally abused as a child. By all accounts, he really was a bright and curious little boy: it absolutely breaks my heart to think of what an awesome person he could have become if he hadn't had his innate goodness beaten out of him.

Now, of course, there are nasty and controlling narcissistic mothers too, but I think patriarchy encourages and enables narcissistic fathers. Certainly, when i was growing up, prevailing, mainstream attitudes regarding the father's role totally supported my father's behavior.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

When I discovered narcissistic personality disorder a few years ago, it rocked my world. The diagnosis described my father to a "t" - the grandiosity and the lack of empathy in particular! ...

Now, of course, there are nasty and controlling narcissistic mothers too, but I think patriarchy encourages and enables narcissistic fathers. Certainly, when i was growing up, prevailing, mainstream attitudes regarding the father's role totally supported my father's behavior.

Similar story here--when I picked up a book about Borderline Personality Disorder by Randi Kreger, it was a lightbulb moment. SO much of it sounded like my dad. That helped me to get the courage to create some boundaries, start standing up for myself and my siblings, and move out in my junior year of college. Well, he retaliated by trying to yank what little $$ he was helping me with (paying half my car and my phone, which I only used to text or call them.) He topped it off by yanking my health insurance coverage and said, "Good bye daughter, it was nice knowing you for 21 years." Drama much?

I called his bluff just like another person who posted in here did (sorry, I forgot your username!). My dad and I stopped emailing each other. My mom tried to guilt-trip me into honoring my dad. I told her to please stop guilt tripping me, but we could talk about other things. That didn't fly so well. Ensue estrangement. Haven't talked with them in over 2 years. It's only my littlest siblings whom I really do miss, and I fear for them 'cause they still live at home.

It was only after the disowning that I read some about NPD, and realized that some of it fit my dad, as well. So, I currently regard him has having undiagnosed NPD/BPD. Religion (Catholicism in this case) is just really handy to back up his power, to try to control the family in a way that he cannot control his own emotions. He never subscribed to the VF/ATI/other bullshit nonsense, probably because it would take away from his own authority to have to abide by some other man's laws. He also controlled us by instilling a healthy dislike of Protestants, since "they're so misguided" and "always trying to convert Catholics."

It wasn't fundie or fundie-lite in the sense of what we usually snark on here at FJ--we were allowed to watch TV and movies and us older two kids went to a state college, and once us older kids had our personal laptops in college, our internet use was not monitored. For that, I am thankful. I'm just hoping that my use of the internet to discover freedom doesn't mean my dad will be even more controlling of the little ones.

Anyway, sorry for the long story. :oops: I'm still figuring out my past and myself and I guess I got on a roll...

[Austin]

Canticle, if I've asked you this before please forgive me, but have you checked out the forums at BPDfamily.com? Both my husband and I have a family member with either BPD or NPD (they overlap so much, it's hard to tell and they're not officially undiagnosed - as are most NPDs and BPDs because they refuse to acknowledge they need help). Anyhoo, on occasion when there's a bit of a dust up or something's bothering me a bit, I find that site helpful. That's also where I found out about the Randi Kreger book.

[emmiedahl]

I care about your spelling and writing abilities if you are claiming to be an adequate judge of a group's education levels.

AKDA=fail.

"What is wrong with public schoolers? They think their (sic) is no E in truely."

[CanticleoftheTurning]

Canticle, if I've asked you this before please forgive me, but have you checked out the forums at BPDfamily.com? Both my husband and I have a family member with either BPD or NPD (they overlap so much, it's hard to tell and they're not officially undiagnosed - as are most NPDs and BPDs because they refuse to acknowledge they need help). Anyhoo, on occasion when there's a bit of a dust up or something's bothering me a bit, I find that site helpful. That's also where I found out about the Randi Kreger book.

Thanks, Austin. I haven't been to BPDFamily.com, but I am part of the email group/forum on Yahoo (which Randi Kreger set up, I believe) which has definitely been helpful. I'll have to check out those forums!

I agree--BPDs and NPDs really do refuse to acknowledge they need help. It's more likely for them to say it's someone else that needs the help instead, because goodness knows, they're oh so perfect there's nothing ever wrong with them :roll: I have read somewhere that BPDs usually have a comorbid disorder, often something else from the "Cluster B" group. And quite often, that's NPD. I wouldn't be surprised if psychologists eventually merged the two disorders.

Sometimes, after reading fundie websies and the snark here on FJ, I have to wonder just how many of those Fundie Royalty or Fundie Leaders have some sort of NPD or other untreated mental disorder. Maybe even sociopathy/psychopathy?

[Austin]

I belonged to that yahoo group for awhile. I just recently unsubscribed because I am in firm N/C status with both of these people and it isn't really a daily problem in my life. My husband is in L/C with his mother, very limited, but he does not subject the rest of us to her.

This has the potential to become very complicated for him because if his sister, who is battling breast cancer, should pass away, it's gonna be a mess. :roll: I mean beyond even the tragedy of her death, which will be bad enough.

[MamaJunebug]

Just dropping by to thank the OP for starting this thread, and for FJians for rescuing it from the threadjack attempt, whether it was intentional (the attempt) or not.

I'm also here to endorse psychotherapy for those recovering from the abuse of patriarchal thinking, whatever its source - and I do believe that patriarchy is a great "cover" or "go-to" for certain personality types.

Mental disorders are everywhere, but in my case, my husband and I formed a nexus of ill-effects from a lot of stuff in our families' pasts. I've pursued therapy off and on throughout our years together. If I hadn't, we'd've had a terrible divorce or he would've turned into a patriarse to rival the smuggest of them. As things stand now, it's workable, very workable. I'm thrilled and so grateful to report that the Junior JBs (our kids) are all in fairly sane relationships and where necessary use therapy and/or prescribed psychotropics and all are carving out, thank God!, happy, productive lives.

Talk to someone you trust who has insights to help you; read; meditate/pray; be mindful. Do what you need to do to survive and eventually to thrive. That's all I can offer but I do want to offer it, and encouragement to you all.

Peace be with you. And I mean that with all my heart and soul.

[Brainsample]

So yet another patriarchy defender who isn't willing to explain how always telling women that they have to be under the authority of their husband isn't suppressing them. Running away is so much easier isn't it? If you could just give me one example of how patriarchy isn't suppressing women, perhaps we could agree.

I'd like to hear whether ADKA is willing to explain the process of how to go about "psyco analizing." Does VF have online resources for doing that?

[Patsy]

I know they're not going to read this over carefully or respond, so everyone else, please just bear with me while I get this out of my system.

as for what I said about vf families being happy, I was merely stating my observations. Sorry if that was offensive. Thoseare my observations. Period.

Absolutely, they're your observations, and I'm usually happy to hear them, but yours go against what I've heard from lots of people, and it's very fair to point out that a survey of ten people that finds greatly different results than 100 other people in the population is, you know, out of the ordinary.

However, you can't say they're just your 'observations' if you've extrapolated from them to get this:

99.99% of then are as happy (most of then happier), as loving (most of them more so), and in general more educated than the average American family.

1. I don't believe in the suppression of women

2. I don't believe in little or no education for male or females. (on the other hand, I think the same of parents who baisically force their children into higher education)

3. I don't believe in women serving men head and foot.

4. Indo not believe that awoman working oitsidetye home is going to Hell.

5. I do not believe in a man having more than one wife.

6. I do not believe in abortion.

7. I do not believe in avman being obeyed unquestioned and no matter what.

8. I do not believe in sex out of wedlock.

9. I do not bieve women wearing pants is sin.

Pretty close to what extremist patriarchy-folk would tell you. They don't think the things they do are 'suppression', 'serving men and foot', 'obeying, unquestioning, no matter what', so from this we can't tell how extreme you are. You seem to think this is the sort of thing that would clarify your position for us, because the extremists spend all their time stomping their feet and shouting 'gee do I ever hate women!' They don't, and we don't think that.

I have never said that everyone in this movement is happy.

No, but you did say that everyone you'd met was, and if it's a very small sample size I don't see why you bothered to say it, because what would that show to us? And if you were generalising 99.9% from such a small sample size...

I never said everyone should live as these people live. But for gosh sake, if this is how people choose to live, who cares? It's a free country, let them without psyco analizing everything.

Oh my fucking God that is half the point of this board. You need a better argument.

[annalena]

Let me tell you. 99.99% of then are as happy (most of then happier), as loving (most of them more so), and in general more educated than the average American family.

Maybe they SEEM more happy to you, which I do not believe. But which I do not believe AT ALL is that they are more educated.

[apple1]

I'd like to hear whether ADKA is willing to explain the process of how to go about "psyco analizing." Does VF have online resources for doing that?

Well, here's what he or she (I'm thinking he) had to say to my comments about spelling/grammar:

I'm actually on my touchpad iPod, and the screen doesn't work all the time. While I freely admit my spelling isn't an award winning art, it isn't usually this bad. Between my screen not catching all that I type and the stupid auto correct, it's a bit worse than usual...very irritating.

And apple: that statement was so full of I don't even know what that it doesn't get an answer.

You know, that stupid auto correct is the cause of "psyco" and "analizing."

[Boltingmadonna]

annalena said:

Maybe they SEEM more happy to you, which I do not believe. But which I do not believe AT ALL is that they are more educated.

A-frakkin'-men to that. I come from a family that really is highly educated. And I can tell you, these people are idiots. They pride themselves on a knowledge of history that is based on books that are pure propaganda, written by cranks with axes to grind. They don't study any of the normally accepted experts in any area, nor do they do any research into primary sources. (I'll make an exception for Francis Schaeffer, Sr., who while sadly misguided in his conclusions, at least read the philosophers and theologians he rejected.)

It's the same story with biology, cosmology, psychology, astrophysics, geology . . . you name a field, and they have trampled carelessly around it, leaving big muddy footprints and learning nothing. They don't have the humility and sense of wonder that is necessary to study anything. They are only interested in their own pre-conceived conclusions. They do not understand the rules of evidence or of scientific investigation. They can't afford to--because then they'd be forced to recognize their own ignorance.

They may well be intelligent in the sense that they have basically good brains--but their minds are so full of the koolaid that they are of little use. A constant diet of propaganda makes people stupid.

As for happiness, I can say from personal experience that it is not possible to be happy when you're pretending all day long. Living a lie made me desperately unhappy. I can't tell you what a relief it was, when I left my religious group, to be able to just say, "This is pissing me off and I'm really angry and sad today!" Instead of "Praise Jesus, He has seen fit to let me endure trials for the purification of my soul--but by His grace, I know I will be victorious because His joy is my strength." Blahhhh . . . .

[NurseNell]

As I read about these patriarchal families I am so glad I had such a great Dad. He was 41 when I was born, 53 when my youngest sibling was born. He was more like a grandfather to us, always there when we needed or wanted him. Believed his daughters could do anything they wanted. Yesterday was the 23rd anniversary of his death and I miss him everyday. Thanks Dad for not being a patriarchal ruler.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I belonged to that yahoo group for awhile. I just recently unsubscribed because I am in firm N/C status with both of these people and it isn't really a daily problem in my life. My husband is in L/C with his mother, very limited, but he does not subject the rest of us to her.

This has the potential to become very complicated for him because if his sister, who is battling breast cancer, should pass away, it's gonna be a mess. :roll: I mean beyond even the tragedy of her death, which will be bad enough.

Kudos to you guys for being NC/LC--no reason you should have to go through any more crazy than you already have. I hope that your SIL can beat breast cancer, and if not, I hope that the occasion passes with as little crazy as possible. As for me, I will probably keep lurking (and occasionally commenting) on the Yahoo group until all my little siblings grow up and move out of the house of crazy.

[CynicMom]

I have a question for all those who have cut off contact with your families:

In our family there is a member who (for crazy religious reasons) has cut off all contact with the whole family except for one person. The family is kind of at a loss for what to do now. He asked for no contact at all. We love him and are sad. So what do we do:

-Send him periodic emails letting him know how we're doing/asking how he'd doing?

-Let him know about major family events (illnesses, et)?

-Try to contact him every so often?

Our intention is to show him that we love him and have an open heart. My guess is that he sees these things as being manipulative and invasive (I don't know as he never responds). So..... what. Is there any hope other than that time will soften his heart? As people who have cut off contact with your families, what would help you be willing to continue a relationship?

[Austin]

I have a question for all those who have cut off contact with your families:

In our family there is a member who (for crazy religious reasons) has cut off all contact with the whole family except for one person. The family is kind of at a loss for what to do now. He asked for no contact at all. We love him and are sad. So what do we do:

-Send him periodic emails letting him know how we're doing/asking how he'd doing?

-Let him know about major family events (illnesses, et)?

-Try to contact him every so often?

Our intention is to show him that we love him and have an open heart. My guess is that he sees these things as being manipulative and invasive (I don't know as he never responds). So..... what. Is there any hope other than that time will soften his heart? As people who have cut off contact with your families, what would help you be willing to continue a relationship?

In my case, the person involved would have to be in better mental health. However, that's highly unlikely as she is either an NPD or BPD (the two are so close that if you did on ven diagram with the two disorders, one would practically eclipse the other - only a slight exaggeration) and she refuses to even consider that she may be the one with the problem. Her journey in life is littered with the corpses of relationships she's killed, her life is total chaos. It's everyone else's fault in every single situation, and she refuses to accept responsibility for anything. She is extremely manipulative and toxic and I just couldn't have her around my children in good conscience, even if I did want to see her (which I don't).

Now it sounds like your situation is the other way around. The person doesn't want to be contacted and has said so. If I was in that situation, I think I would respect his wishes. I might send a card at Christmas, but assuming that you and your other family members' contact information stays the same, he knows where to reach you if he wants to. Of course, disregard all of this if he is seriously mentally ill. Then there may be a lot of other factors besides his wishes to consider, like his safety.

[oscar]

I have a question for all those who have cut off contact with your families:

In our family there is a member who (for crazy religious reasons) has cut off all contact with the whole family except for one person. The family is kind of at a loss for what to do now. He asked for no contact at all. We love him and are sad. So what do we do:

-Send him periodic emails letting him know how we're doing/asking how he'd doing?

-Let him know about major family events (illnesses, et)?

-Try to contact him every so often?

Our intention is to show him that we love him and have an open heart. My guess is that he sees these things as being manipulative and invasive (I don't know as he never responds). So..... what. Is there any hope other than that time will soften his heart? As people who have cut off contact with your families, what would help you be willing to continue a relationship?

I have an older relative with whom I was close as a child, but who has become very reclusive. At one point, he expressed a general wish for the family to stop contacting him, and subsequently, he's asked particular individuals to stop calling or writing.

I send him letters and try to make it clear that while I love to hear from him, he's under no obligation to reply. I receive a short response every few years, and he's never told me, personally, to stop writing.

If he did ask that I no longer write to him, I would not listen. I figure if he really didn't want to hear from me, he could just throw my letters away unopened, and it's not my responsibility to make things easy for him when his choices make it more difficult for everyone else.

I can't read other people's minds, and I'd rather make the mistake of mildly annoying someone than pull back and leave them wondering why I stopped caring.

[Angri-la]

Let me tell you. 99.99% of then are as happy (most of then happier), as loving (most of them more so), and in general more educated than the average American family.

What is an "average" American family? Because I call bullshit on this statement.

I am happy, sometimes happier than I think I deserve!

My family is bursting with love.

My spouse and I are well educated, as is our little girl, who is not yet in preschool.

I am sorry to use vulgar language, but you are talking out of the wrong end of your body; I suppose that is why you spew generalities.

There is some serious stuff being discussed here. It is obvious that you are not here for the right reasons, so kindly find another sandbox to go play in. I think The TLC Duggar boards are probably more your speed.

*pats head of lil troll*

(My husband is home; he will clean the rug)

[Brainsample]

I have a question for all those who have cut off contact with your families:

In our family there is a member who (for crazy religious reasons) has cut off all contact with the whole family except for one person. The family is kind of at a loss for what to do now. He asked for no contact at all. We love him and are sad. So what do we do:

-Send him periodic emails letting him know how we're doing/asking how he'd doing?

-Let him know about major family events (illnesses, et)?

-Try to contact him every so often?

Our intention is to show him that we love him and have an open heart. My guess is that he sees these things as being manipulative and invasive (I don't know as he never responds). So..... what. Is there any hope other than that time will soften his heart? As people who have cut off contact with your families, what would help you be willing to continue a relationship?

Cynicmom,

I don't know what kind of religious group your son is in, but this video is incredibly helpful and what I view as one of the most helpful resources available on trying to reconnect with your child. Steve goes over how people get influenced, what his own experience was like (he was Jewish and ended up in the Moonies and was in close contact with Moon himself). If nothing else, he's got some great ideas about how to initiate contact and what to do to try to be available and patient.

http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2008 ... ssans.html

[Austin]

Reading comprehension fail on my part. I didn't realize he was in a religious cult. Forget everything I wrote and listen to brain. I thought we were talking about an adult not under the influence of anyone else.

[Brainsample]

Reading comprehension fail on my part. I didn't realize he was in a religious cult. Forget everything I wrote and listen to brain. I thought we were talking about an adult not under the influence of anyone else.

Austin,

I Cynicmom didn't say it was necessarily a cult, as plain old regular people can have crazy religion things going on from time to time.

The ideas that Hassan offers in that video are very good, and they could be helpful to anyone with similar problems.

[Austin]

Geesh, I can't get this topic right. I should have said I didn't realize that his decision to shun his family had religious. . . uh. . . roots.

[Brainsample]

Geesh, I can't get this topic right. I should have said I didn't realize that his decision to shun his family had religious. . . uh. . . roots.

I know what you meant. :D Just for the record, though. As we well know here, the line between healthy religion and harmful is often fluid and tenuous. It can happen to people who are in sane and normal groups but take this stuff too far, too. Sigh.

[duplessis3]

I think in that situation I'd go with periodic contact just so if he needs an escape route he knows that there is one.